Switch Theme:

Green Party Candidate for American Presidency Arrested for trying to enter debate?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I was reading that the candidate for the green party, Dr Jill Stein, was arrested for the duration of the debate. Seems pretty crazy that alternative voices are stifled like that in a country that prides itself on free speech and democracy.

What do the American posters think of it? If it were me, I'd be pretty annoyed about it, especially given how no one seems happy with the two main parties these days anyway.

Here's an article from the Guardian, which has a left wing bias, but I couldn't find much in any more "reputable" news source and nothing from any of the mainstream US sites, in the first few google results anyhow. Which seemed strange to me!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/18/jill-stein-arrest-green-party-presidential-debate?INTCMP=SRCH


Apparently, she tried to get in, was pushed backwards, and then sat down outside. She was then arrested and carried away to a police station where she was held for the duration of the debate.

Seems like the sort of thing that happens in countries less famed for their democratic values than the US.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/19 22:10:08


   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






I think every party should be part of our debates, it should just e republican and democrat, They dont have all the answers.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Most third parties are spinoffs or more radical versions of one of the 2 main parties so their existance really serves no purpose beyond agitating for a particular topic.

Other third parties are advocates of one particular issues(like the weed party) and really should not be taken seriously.


I do think its wrong they would be denied entrance to the debate. Could be interesting.

Although I don't see how you could have an effective debate between 3 or more parties. It would be a very long and convoluted ordeal.


I think it might be a good idea to have a public forum program for an election. a time on TV where each candidate in successive order would come forward(on the same stage) and outline their plan for the country. It would allow everyone to have their say, and might allow third parties to actually appear on the stage.


The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

I prefer the 2 party system. It encourages moderation and makes sweeping changes difficult to achieve because not only are the 2 parties going head to head, the parties are divided amoung themselves. This prevents radical elements from taking over like a multi-part system would potentially allow.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





 Grey Templar wrote:

Although I don't see how you could have an effective debate between 3 or more parties. It would be a very long and convoluted ordeal.


Our televised debate was alright, in fact I would like to have seen the Green Party involved (not sure on their standing in the States, but the Greens here are becoming an effective force as the Forth Party).
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The green party is the largest party here that would have a decent chance of getting votes. Plus the Libertarian party.

A 4 way debate between these 4 would be interesting, athough it would probably take 6-8 hours.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I think it would be good to give these other viewpoints some more airtime. I mean, otherwise, the two main parties can decide certain topics are "off limits" and not discuss them, for example climate change.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The problem is that the majority of the time, the "third party" candidate came from one of the main two, but failed to get the ballot in the primaries, and their "main" purpose is to pull votes away from the winner. I think that outside of Libertarians and Green Parties, about the only other one that had any "seriousness" to it was Teddy's Bull Moose Party.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

And that was back when minor parties could actually make it onto national stage.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

The Commission on Presidential Debates, which runs the debates is a mutual undertaking of the Democratic and Republican parties. After Perot, they agreed together to exclude third party candidates from the debates, to maintain a tighter hold on power and reduce the ability of third party candidates to viably contend. They imposed a rule in 2000 that a party has to get at least 15% across five national polls to get in. This cut out the Greens and Nader in that year. The League of Women Voters ran the 1976, 80, and 84 debates, then backed out in 1988 and the Comission took over because the LoWV found the collusion between the R and D parties to be immoral and deceptive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

IMO it's one of the scummier parts of our political systems, and one area in which I find the Democratic party just as repugnant as the Republican party.

The idea that third parties are only there as ego-sops for guys who couldn't get on their "real" party's ticket is part of the problem. The Greens and Libertarians deserve a chance to get some more voices heard, like the Reform Party managed in the 90s. It would certainly make our process more democratic and less collusive, and it actually might spur some real change and evolution of the parties and of Congress.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/20 00:08:37


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




Monarchy of TBD

It really drives home that idea that you have to choose the Dem or Rep candidate you like the most, and not the candidate that most matches your views in the polls. It is really deeply ingrained in our culture to back one of the big guys, or 'throw away' your vote.

I got my sample ballot, and researched all of FL's candidates- I was rather surprised to find myself most in accord with the Greens. This act of conviction by Stein definitely firms up that decision for me.

Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.

 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Mann summed it up nicely, the Libertarians are the biggest third party in the States followed shortly by the Greens I believe, I think it's down right horse apples that Gary Johnson (or Dr. Stein for that matter) weren't allowed floor time at the debates.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

The problem with a two-party system is that they have a position on everything.

What party do I join?

I am a libertarian socialist, and my stance on topics is divided between the two parties. There is no way I could join either I them because they both fight against things that are important to me.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




SE Michigan

It is in neither of the two big parties interest to allow third parties to be relevant, the Dems and Repubs are pretty ingrained on that issue. And considering they usually control the government they make the rules

www.mi40k.com for pickup games and tournaments
3000+


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Mannahnin wrote:The Commission on Presidential Debates, which runs the debates is a mutual undertaking of the Democratic and Republican parties. After Perot, they agreed together to exclude third party candidates from the debates, to maintain a tighter hold on power and reduce the ability of third party candidates to viably contend. They imposed a rule in 2000 that a party has to get at least 15% across five national polls to get in. This cut out the Greens and Nader in that year. The League of Women Voters ran the 1976, 80, and 84 debates, then backed out in 1988 and the Comission took over because the LoWV found the collusion between the R and D parties to be immoral and deceptive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

IMO it's one of the scummier parts of our political systems, and one area in which I find the Democratic party just as repugnant as the Republican party.

The idea that third parties are only there as ego-sops for guys who couldn't get on their "real" party's ticket is part of the problem. The Greens and Libertarians deserve a chance to get some more voices heard, like the Reform Party managed in the 90s. It would certainly make our process more democratic and less collusive, and it actually might spur some real change and evolution of the parties and of Congress.

Everything I wanted to say, said.
Perot showed there was a serious threat from a third party and the reds and blues banded together to keep everyone else out.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Mann summed it up nicely, the Libertarians are the biggest third party in the States followed shortly by the Greens I believe, I think it's down right horse apples that Gary Johnson (or Dr. Stein for that matter) weren't allowed floor time at the debates.

Johnson sued to be a part of the debate, I guess he got locked out. If and this is a huge if one of the networks like Fox or CNN became a libertarian or green platform the way fox and NBC are they could hold debates and force a third party. Long odds.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
NBC = MSNBC

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/20 02:00:10


 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

Although I don't see how you could have an effective debate between 3 or more parties. It would be a very long and convoluted ordeal.


Not really, we have 5 way debates here in Canada and they work out fine. Also, the thought that a third party wouldn't be able to get off the ground or is essentially just a fragmented version of the old parties is also a load of hogwash. In Canada both our governing party and our official opposition are relatively new parties. With the Conservative party being a union of the Reform Party founded in 1987, and the Progressive Conservative party which has been around since the 1860's. That would be like a third party in the states swallowing up the Republican party.

DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 Ratbarf wrote:
Although I don't see how you could have an effective debate between 3 or more parties. It would be a very long and convoluted ordeal.


Not really, we have 5 way debates here in Canada and they work out fine. Also, the thought that a third party wouldn't be able to get off the ground or is essentially just a fragmented version of the old parties is also a load of hogwash. In Canada both our governing party and our official opposition are relatively new parties. With the Conservative party being a union of the Reform Party founded in 1987, and the Progressive Conservative party which has been around since the 1860's. That would be like a third party in the states swallowing up the Republican party.


Which is a perfect example of why they bend over backwards to make it impossible for any third party to be on the ballot in Oklahoma. D or R or bust!
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Grey Templar wrote:

Although I don't see how you could have an effective debate between 3 or more parties. It would be a very long and convoluted ordeal.


There's actually a decent argument that we shouldn't have political debates at all because, as is the case with debates, they have virtually nothing to do with the substantive articulation of policy proposals. Its theatre, nothing more and nothing less.

 Grey Templar wrote:

I prefer the 2 party system. It encourages moderation and makes sweeping changes difficult to achieve because not only are the 2 parties going head to head, the parties are divided amoung themselves. This prevents radical elements from taking over like a multi-part system would potentially allow.


Not if the present state of US politics is to be taken as an exemplar. There is a serious problem with moderate voters being chased away from the political process because they are forced to contend with the vocal extremes that the two big-tent parties contain. This naturally leads politicians to appeal to the extreme elements of their own parties knowing that they'll either be forced to recant once elected, or intending to recant without force. The Bush Administration, as example, has gotten a ton of flack for this from within the Republican Party. The Obama Administration as well. Adding additional parties prevents this problem while, at least in the present climate, diluting the power of parties as a whole and therefore allowing politicians to vote against the party line with greater freedom.

Another key point is that, because the US doesn't use a parliamentary system, it would be quite difficult for any one extreme party to gain unobstructed power. Of course, the absence of a parliamentary system also makes it difficult for third parties to gain electoral footing outside the House.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/20 02:38:49


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






Meh, I'm pretty sure we have a one party system - the lying donkey-caves who want to keep their paychecks coming party. All this 'struggle' between dems and repubs is just a smart way of making sure no one really has to try hard -
"Sure, I've never payed more than cursory attention to my campaign promises, and I may have been caught knocking up those three underage prostitutes, but at least I'm not a god damned democrat/republican."

- and the general status quo is maintained.

"Sure, we wanted to fully overhaul X.... but the Senate/House is full of democrats/republicans, and they stopped us.




I mean, I probably came off pissed there, but really, I'm just bemused and honestly a bit jealous. It's a reaaaally good scam.
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void




It's a big club and we aren't in it.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Krazed Killa Kan






Newport, S Wales

As a point of interest, and something I read up on recently on my lunch-break:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

It basically states (while not 100% absolute) that any political system based on a 'most votes wins' tends to create a two-party system.

DR:80S---G+MB---I+Pw40k08#+D+A+/fWD???R+T(M)DM+
My P&M Log: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/433120.page
 Atma01 wrote:

And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!


Phototoxin wrote:Kids go in , they waste tonnes of money on marnus calgar and his landraider, the slaneshi-like GW revel at this lust and short term profit margin pleasure. Meanwhile father time and cunning lord tzeentch whisper 'our games are better AND cheaper' and then players leave for mantic and warmahordes.

daveNYC wrote:The Craftworld guys, who are such stick-in-the-muds that they manage to make the Ultramarines look like an Ibiza nightclub that spiked its Red Bull with LSD.
 
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

It basically states (while not 100% absolute) that any political system based on a 'most votes wins' tends to create a two-party system.


You know I'm seeing where that's coming from, because there are so many historical examples of it, but the problem with the states is they've pretty much codified it into law.

DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





St. Louis, MO

 Mannahnin wrote:
The Commission on Presidential Debates, which runs the debates is a mutual undertaking of the Democratic and Republican parties. After Perot, they agreed together to exclude third party candidates from the debates, to maintain a tighter hold on power and reduce the ability of third party candidates to viably contend. They imposed a rule in 2000 that a party has to get at least 15% across five national polls to get in. This cut out the Greens and Nader in that year. The League of Women Voters ran the 1976, 80, and 84 debates, then backed out in 1988 and the Comission took over because the LoWV found the collusion between the R and D parties to be immoral and deceptive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_on_Presidential_Debates

IMO it's one of the scummier parts of our political systems, and one area in which I find the Democratic party just as repugnant as the Republican party.

The idea that third parties are only there as ego-sops for guys who couldn't get on their "real" party's ticket is part of the problem. The Greens and Libertarians deserve a chance to get some more voices heard, like the Reform Party managed in the 90s. It would certainly make our process more democratic and less collusive, and it actually might spur some real change and evolution of the parties and of Congress.


This...so much this.

The last election I voted for a candidate for major office was in '96 and then it was only because it was the first presidential election I was old enough to vote. Since then I have refused to vote for a candidate because as an extreme moderate there simply has been no presidential candidate that represented my views and was qualified for office imo. Both the democratic and republican parties have deal breakers in their platforms and I refuse to put votes in the pockets of parties who are working their damnedest to ensure that I will never have a candidate who's views I can support.

Once they get into office, the problems only get worse.

11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die.
++

Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
 
   
Made in au
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Australia

 Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

Really? Which of the two big parties is opposed to the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Some folks who oppose it are found under the big tent of each party- real Constitutional Libertarians, and left wing civil libertarians.

But as you're right to point out, neither is a large enough population in either party to seriously push the agenda of fixing it.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






AlexHolker wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

Really? Which of the two big parties is opposed to the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?


Obama.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 AustonT wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

Really? Which of the two big parties is opposed to the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?


Obama.


So that's why he signed NDAA and is defending it in court?
   
Made in ca
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Ontario

Obama.




I actually burst out laughing at that. That's so untrue I'm not sure if you're being sardonic or not.

DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

I take it then no on watched the other debate ?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32784.htm

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 d-usa wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

Really? Which of the two big parties is opposed to the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?


Obama.


So that's why he signed NDAA and is defending it in court?

Great Scott! You're right, now I have to vote for Romney.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.

Come check out my Blood Angels,Crimson Fists, and coming soon Eldar
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391013.page
I have conceded that the Eldar page I started in P&M is their legitimate home. Free Candy! Updated 10/19.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/391553.page
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 AustonT wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 AustonT wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The thing is, our political system is dominated by 2 parties that are all encompassing in their platforms. They make third parties redundant because any views a third party might have are almost garunteed to be also held by the big party.

Really? Which of the two big parties is opposed to the indefinite detention of US citizens without trial?


Obama.


So that's why he signed NDAA and is defending it in court?

Great Scott! You're right, now I have to vote for Romney.


Well, both parties have the same idea and support the NDAA. So it doesn't really matter.

Which of course brings us pack to the problem of having only two big parties that have a stand on every issue and are the same on others.
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: