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Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





A few friends and I are working on some Fandexes to play with. Number one on the priority list is, of course, Wood Elves. I'll put what I've got so far here once I get back to the computer with that file on it, but in the mean time, I'd like to ask you guys for ideas on what you'd change.

Some guidelines:

- we want to keep that same agile, elite that makes the Asrai the Asrai, which means no cheap blocks of rank-and-file, no matter how much it would help the army tactically.
- ease and quickness of play is key. We don't want a dozen new units with two-dozen new rules each. A few new ideas is good. Fine-tuning of existing stuff is better.
- to simulate guerrilla warfare better, ideas like universal Hit and Run, Fire and Flee, and such have been tossed around. This seems to be the main aspect to focus on, so any input would be appreciated.
- the Forest Spirit 5+ Ward will not be negated by non-magical attacks. As much for simplicity as for balance. So let's move on to bigger and better discussions.

So, Dakka. Whatcha got?

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





(see later post for current Fandex)

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/12/07 08:21:07


 
   
Made in gb
Booming Thunderer







Wow, you have been one busy man!

I have just started a wood elf army myself, so I can offer enthusiastic criticism, but I don't know them well enough for constructive criticism!

I love the idea of allowing more units to hit-and-run, but reading your 'asrai warfare' rule it seems a little unfair that when an opponent beats a wood elf unit in combat they can't pursue them, I would suggest when the wood elf loses it DOES take a break test and if it PASSES its allowed to fall back with the rules above.

Do asrai bows need to be strength 4 AND armour piercing? And if glade guard can hit and run and have just had a bow upgrade would that not justify a basic points increase? skirmish upgrade = very cool.

But enough criticism, I am loving having a dragon as a rare choice, allowing mages to use more lores, bolt thrower-esque warhawk attacks (inspired idea!) and the new athel loren lore in general (tree singing as lore attribute & 'summon' dryads = awesome).

Last suggestion, I always thought it interesting that as forest spirits were immune to psychology they couldn't flee as a reaction, this made them tactically different to other units and also fluffy as they are a force of nature and thus have no concept of retreat, I think you should keep that.

Anyway, i'll shut up now and let someone who really knows about asrai say something, I'm moving over to the dwarf thread I just saw as it's making my beard tingle!
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





The hit-and-run idea is definately something I'm not satisfied with. Mainly because a BSB is essentially useless in such a force. Even without being able to pursue, fleeing combat isn't all that great army-wide. As I've playtested, you run out of space real quick.

Honestly, I forgot about the AP bows. Mathhammer-wise, Glade Guard are not that bad. We just really wanted Wood Elves to be better, and improving their Core (by making them better/pt, not just by adding stuff and increasing their cost) seemed like a good place to start. But I've seen that, on their own, the Guard are mostly okay.

Forest Spirits being able to/not being able to flee has fluff-compliments either way, but ITP is easier than "Immune to Terror and Panic"...I may change that back.

Finally, we cannot take credit for the Warhawk rake attacks. That was...someone else on Dakka. Can't recall who, at the moment.

 
   
Made in gb
Booming Thunderer







Fair points all round. When I look at the hit and running I see a new option that allows woodies to actually throw units into combat again (now that they can't kill off the front rank to be safe), I can imagine how you'd run out of space though, and have a complete mess of skirmishing units fleeing and charging in all directions if you weren't careful! funny for your opponent, a real test of organization for you
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





The other option is to bring back the Fire and Flee! charge reaction, but that leaves most Forest Spirts without any way of being Forest-y.

 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Lawrence, KS

Treeman Ancients: Forest Spirit, 3+ Scaly Skin, 4+ Regen. Access to Lore of Life, Lore of Athel Loren

Treemen: Forest Spirit, 3+ Scaly Skin, 4+ Regen
Treekin: Forest Spirit, 4+ Scaly Skin, 5+ Regen
Dryads: Forest Spirit, 6+ Regen, Hatred (or Frenzy)

I like a bit of what you've done with Wild Riders (their points are off. 2,335pts each? Ouch!) but I was always a fan of them causing Terror when they charged in the flanks or rear, having Furious Charge (whatever the fantasy equivilant is) and/or potentially having some sort of ability to disrupt ranks in the turn that they charge due to the panic that they can incite. I also think some sort of Miner-like deployment might be appropriate for Hawks, Wild Riders, and Dryads (or certainly a SC or upgrade that allows the same)

Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!

Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Hmmmm, I would change the Forest Walkers special rule. The part about Mysterious Forests. Make it where any time a unit from either side enters a Mysterious Forest, you roll 3D6 and the Woodelf player may choose which of the rolls apply. If 2 wood elf armies are fighting each other, you roll as normal and this rule doesn't apply.


I would add Fire and Flee back as well.

Fire and Flee: Wood Elf units with this special rule have an additional Charge Reaction option. When a unit elects to Fire and Flee, it immediately makes a Stand and Shoot charge reaction and then Flees, as per the individual rules for the Stand and Shoot and Flee charge reactions. Shots made during a Fire and Flee reaction suffer a -1 penelty on the to hit roll. This penelty is NOT negated by the Asrai Archery special rule.


Another special rule I would add,

Hit and Run: The Asrai do not tend to fight in pitched battles, but a series of hit and run attacks meant to weaken the enemy over time. Eventually defeating their opponents over the span of days or even weeks. When casualities are caused by a unit with this rule, set them aside seperatly from the other casualities. At the end of the game when tallying up Victory Points, count the point value of these models in the total as if they were their own individual units. These points are in addition to the unit they were from's original point value.

Give this special rule to all Characters and Waywatchers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/22 04:52:17


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Nagashek: Heh. I believe Wild Riders were originally priced at 23pts, and are supposed to be 35pts.
Units like this are always tricky, because there's so many ways to capture their feel within the rules.

Interesting idea about special deployment, though!

@Grey Templar: Why would you change Forest Walker? Letting the Wood Elf player decide for both sides gives the rule some offensive potential. Really, I just think it's stupid that Wood Elves can loose a fight because of the forest they're in, like anyone else. And don't even get me started on Dryads taking wounds from animated trees...

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Because the Elves can only tell what the Forest is in advance, and maybe do some rearranging. They don't have complete control over the result.

Thus, having it be a 3D6 roll and the WE player decide which rule applies seems to be the fairest option.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





You are right; a forest where Wood Elves went first has no reason to be safer than any other. The opposite, in fact. But 3 dice...I guess I feel like a slight variation on a mechanic is more complicated than creating another simple mechanic.

They could just be immune to casualties and psychology tests caused by Forests?

I watched a unit of Waywatchers sustain 2 casualties from a Venom Thicket. It makes zero sense. Of course, their Poisoned arrows did (though they did not help). Slightly more sense, in fact, than it does for normal foot-slogging infantry to wander into a copse of trees and then promptly rub their weapons down with tree frogs and cobras.
Mysterious Forests. A cool idea with some very silly means of execution.

 
   
Made in au
Skillful Swordmaster






Woodland ambush, Any WE unit deployed inside a forest is considered to be lurking in ambush and is invisible to the enemy (kinda like the dwarf warmachine rune) They may not be targeted by missile fire,warmachines or magic until they "reveal" themselves by moving or shooting. However they must make panic tests as normal.

Enemy models may still charge them as normal as it represents them being spotted.

Also they should never have to take dangerous terrain test from forest no matter what unit type. (other negative effects should apply as normal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/05 08:15:15


Damn I cant wait to the GW legal team codex comes out now there is a dex that will conquer all. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I like the ideas and way you've kept the general concept of the Wood Elves. I don't really know the army well enough to offer useful criticism, but I am pretty sure that Branchwraiths are a bit overpriced at 1012 points for the upgrade There's a similar problem with some of the magic items.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@Jubear: I like the idea. It's elegant and makes sense. My two issues, though, is that Warhammer has already laid out (bad) rules for ambushes, and that Wood Elves don't seem to need as much help against shooting/magic armies as they do armies with several units of 50 guys.
I like the way you think, though! Keep the ideas coming!

@Sebster: I think the issue is that I was not the original author, and that my Edit-Track Changes-Insert Comment routine still somehow showed up on the final markup. Deciding on point costs is always tricky, so as a general rule, I ask someone who really likes the army (my friend) to throw out a number that seems more reasonable, and then I increase it. I'll try to fix that, once I can get at the original document.

 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Updated the info. That should take care of weird typos. Changed the Forest Stalkers up a bit, replaced Asrai Warfare with Fire and Flee, etc.
I also did a thing or two with the spells. Swapped Oaken Armour and Fury of the Forest as the signature and #1 (because having all Wood Elf casters access to a spell that grants more armour doesn't fit as well as one that harasses the enemy).
Still not sure about The Big Spell.

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Warpsolution wrote:
@Sebster: I think the issue is that I was not the original author, and that my Edit-Track Changes-Insert Comment routine still somehow showed up on the final markup.


Ah, that'd explain it. I thought it was a change in value, because the numbers looked liked they'd changed from one thing to another, but I didn't think of tracking changes.

Deciding on point costs is always tricky, so as a general rule, I ask someone who really likes the army (my friend) to throw out a number that seems more reasonable, and then I increase it. I'll try to fix that, once I can get at the original document.


Yeah, points cost are really tough, because a value of a unit isn't just in its abilities, but based in so many intangible things. Eyeballing a value, getting feedback and then seeing how it works in play and adjusting it is pretty much the only way to do it.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Indeed! Right now, my main concerns here are Wild Riders, Warhawk Riders, and Eternal Guard.
On the last one, I've seen so many people offer so many different ideas. A 5+ Parry, because, ya' know, defensive staff-based martial arts, replacing the weird weapons with halberds or spears and shields (probably the simplest idea, but I thought I'd try to change as little as possible). As they are now, they've e got the bonuses of hand weapon/shield, spear, and two hand weapons. Or in other words, they have +1 armour and a 6+ Parry added on to what they were.

Thanks for all the imput so far, everyone.

 
   
Made in us
Hunting Glade Guard



Bluffs and hills of Wisconsin

Two things:

1. It seems a bit odd that Glade Guard have light armor but Eternal Guard and Waywatchers don't.

2. War Dancers have a rule called Elite warriors which isn't explained in the post. I think it was the rule that let champions of special and rare units take 25 pts of magic items and Spites like their High and Dark elf counter parts.

Otherwise awesome job. I really like the direction this has gone since the last time we talked about this.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Heh. Yeah, they should all have Light Armour. And I was going to explain the Elite Warriors thing on each unit. I'm gonna fix that up real quick!

There. Edited. Now I'm looking at the spells again, and I'm wondering: Fairie Fire seems really, really good. Any ways we could make it more comparable to Wind Blast? And the Big Spell...how good is it?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/12 19:27:51


 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

Awesome job. I would like to see a bow for waywatcher priest or hero with the ability of heroic killing blow. Warhawks are way to weak in the 8th edition especially that ther is no extra attack for charging.

But GW cares only about the most popular races and as far as I remember nothing has been added to wood elfs for the past 5 years. Little hope!!!!!!!!!! Maybe three years later we gone find 1/20 of the things mentioned in a new wood elf codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they would just release new rules to the existing units and add new items that would be fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wood elves are the finest archers in the warhammer and they don't have sniper unit. How about giving them a unit of archers that would have s 5 and would penetrate the ranks the same way bolt throwers do. Imagine a giant bow hooked to a tree or driad and elf standing behind it and stretching the chord. The unit could consists of 10 archers each of the using the horse base.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/19 22:31:31


sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





devestator 7777777 wrote:
I would like to see a bow for waywatcher priest or hero with the ability of heroic killing blow.


Heroic Killing Blow is an amazing and incredibly rare ability. A Wardancer character has access to it, and giving one army more than one way to get at this ability would be pretty unfair, especially considering that you could have multiple Wardancer characters.
Most important of all, though, is that giving Heroic Killing Blow to any ranged attack--close range or not--is probably never a good idea.
There was an idea on the forums a while back about Waywatchers being able to choose Killing Blow or Sniper, or giving Waywatcher characters Sniper. Still worth considering.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Warhawks are way to weak in the 8th edition especially that ther is no extra attack for charging.


Do you think the Warhawks above (W2 and a Rake attack) would make the unit worth taking?

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they would just release new rules to the existing units and add new items that would be fine.


Agreed. Hence why I'm working on this Fandex. Tournaments are one small aspect of Warhammer; I'd gladly let any Wood Elf general use this Fandex in a normal game.

devestator 7777777 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wood elves are the finest archers in the warhammer and they don't have sniper unit. How about giving them a unit of archers that would have s 5 and would penetrate the ranks the same way bolt throwers do. Imagine a giant bow hooked to a tree or driad and elf standing behind it and stretching the chord. The unit could consists of 10 archers each of the using the horse base.


By "sniper", do you mean "high-strength ranged attack?". To be honest, a two-man bow sounds pretty far from elven. Maybe Goblins would do such a thing (I modeled my Doom Diver as such, actually), but such a weapon would be undignified and very inaccurate.
Moreover, I don't think Wood Elves need much in the way of new units; we're trying to keep the number of Core/Special/Rare about the same as the other books. Super-accurate archery and immensely powerful attacks shouldn't really mix anyway. I mean, Skaven Jezzail teams would still be a great choice, if they were still skirmished, and they're 20pts for BS3 models.
If, however, you were using the word "sniper" in the actual in-game sense (though your example would be off the mark, if you were), I'd point out that there are several character-targeting goodies in the book. Even more, if we follow through on the sniper-Waywatchers. Maybe drop their Trap ability, give them Sniper, and bring them back up in points a bit?

Thanks for your input, though! Also curious what people have to say about Wildriders, Wardancers, Eternal Guard, and the Lore of Athel Loren.

 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

It's nice that you mentioned enthernal guard as this unit is simply way to weak. A model cost 12 point has 2 s 3 atacks and a armour save of 5+ and t 3. For the same cost you can get driad which has 2 s 4 atacks a ward save of 5+ and t 4. Therefore there is absolutely no reason for using enthernal guard. I hope in 2013 when the new wood elf codex is going to be released , the ethernal guard is going to be stroneger. Wood elf army does't need many new units. However I hope they will add some kind of elite archers, because waywatchers are just not doing there job. Killing blow works only on a roll of 6. Waywatcher costs 24 pts and it's more worth to get a wild rider for 26 pts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's nice that you mentioned enthernal guard as this unit is simply way to weak. A model cost 12 point has 2 s 3 atacks and a armour save of 5+ and t 3. For the same cost you can get driad which has 2 s 4 atacks a ward save of 5+ and t 4. Therefore there is absolutely no reason for using enthernal guard. I hope in 2013 when the new wood elf codex is going to be released , the ethernal guard is going to be stroneger. Wood elf army does't need many new units. However I hope they will add some kind of elite archers, because waywatchers are just not doing there job. Killing blow works only on a roll of 6. Waywatcher costs 24 pts and it's more worth to get a wild rider for 26 pts.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
RE: To be honest, a two-man bow sounds pretty far from elven. Maybe Goblins would do such a thing (I modeled my Doom Diver as such, actually), but such a weapon would be undignified and very inaccurate.

Why not !!!

The bow does't necesary need to be hooked to the tree it can be the tree or the branch that bends it self and the wood elf would just stretch a creeper. You said that this would be inaccurate, but think realistically wood elves are said to be the finest archers in a whole warhammer universe. If the archer of that sort would master his skills for whole life every day all most nonstop he would shoot accuaretely with this inaccuarate weapon, or the tree it self. And I did't mean that this should be a sniper unit , because this would be to strong, but I meant that wood elfs should get a sniper unit. I agree with you about the heroic kiling blow and about the warhawk riders. I like the way you improved waywatchers, but I feel like two efective missile units are not enough for the wood elf army if they are to be the finest archers in a whole warhammer universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nothing has been released for wood elfs since 5 or 6 years. So it should not be a problem for GW to release 1 or 2 units at most.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/11/21 18:17:26


sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Having a hard time understanding everything there, devastator777777, but I'll try to respond:

- my Eternal Guard are 15pts for Stubborn WS5 S3 T3, with a 5+/6+, 2 attacks, Fight In Extra Ranks, and--this is the most important--they keep their longbows.
Eternal Guard should be comparable to Black and Pheonix Guard, and I think these changes would make them so.

- my Waywatcher dropped by 4pts, gained Killing Blow at all ranges, and have Asrai Longbows (S4 at close range).

- " I did't mean that this should be a sniper unit...I meant that wood elfs should get a sniper unit" -see why I'm a bit confused, here?
And as for thinking realistically about giant self-drawing tree-bows: it's just not in the tone of Elves. Wood Elves are loosely based off of Native American guerilla warfare, which is a far cry from this idea.
I mean, yes, they're the best archers, so applying themselves to one weapon or another would yield in fairly accurate ranged combat, but that doesn't mean they'd slap together just any ol' weapon. They're going to use the tried-and-true tactics, the reliable ones, and the Best Ones.
Finally, no one in history has ever fielded masses of 20ft. longbows. Especially not in an army that needs to travel quick and light.

- and on "effective missile troops": the Asrai have the Glade Guard, Glade Riders, Eternal Guard, Warhawk Riders, and Waywatchers. I think that should be good enough, don't you? They each serve a different purpose, but they're all good at what they do.

 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

If the enthernal guard would have longbows then there would be little senese in having glade guard. In close combat they are still weaker then dryads which are cheaper.

There is a stereotype that wood elves are a mobile army, however there is no rule applying that all of wood elf units need to be mobile. That's way nothing is wrong with the unit of archers that I mentioned previously. You said that" no one in history has ever fielded masses of 20ft. longbows" that's true, but if GW would try different unit's then we would't have many of the units that are now in the game. If you worry that this unit might be to strong, then the alternative is making it cost expensive. 10 archers with s 5 piercing ranks the same way bolt throwers might do a lot of damage. On the otherhand if a single archer would cost 50pts then, your opoent would be able to field 3 hydras for the price of 10 archers.

Glade riders and warhawk riders are not counted as effective missile troops, because they are not numerous or don't have a powerful ability like waywatchers. I'm not a great fan of giving bows to the ethernal guard, because then they would have practialy the same shooting capabilities(accept the fire and flee rule) and would be much stronger in close combat.combat.

sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@devastator7777777: you say that there would be no point in taking Glade Guard, but that Eternal Guard are still worse than Dryads so...I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you think they're too good or not good enough? 'Cause you seem to be saying both.
Keep in mind that Eternal Guard cost 3pts/model more than Glade Guard and, most importantly, are Special instead of Core. And I took out the option to make them Core. They're no better shots than their kin, so if you want a super-shooty army, go with Glade Guard.
Also, Dryads aren't very good anymore. The new Skirmishing rules make Dryads take up a silly amount of space on the table. Also note that Eternal Guard have more attacks at a higher Weapon Skill and have a better save versus S3 and less, and the same save versus S4. And, of course, they are Stubborn. Which is The Thing about them.

There isn't a rule that says they're mobile, but that's the whole point of the army.
Allow me to clarify: there's nothing wrong with the idea of giant bows in itself. It even makes sense, in a fantasy setting. It's not a broken or over-powered concept, but it feels like a Golbin or Skaven contraption, which is about as far from Elven as you can get.
In my opinion, it absolutely does not ever even remotely fit the tone of the Asrai, which is more important to me than anything. They don't get cheap rank-and-file, they don't get heavily armoured anything, and they don't get this. If you like the idea, by all means utilize it in some way. But, to be plain: there is nothing you can do to sway me to put it in my version of the book.

Glade/Warhawk riders put out few shots, but are extremely mobile, which allows them to (1) put those shots where they count the most, and (2) do so without being open to return fire.
Wood Elves don't need all of their units to fire lots of arrows. If you want more arrows, you take more of that one unit. They should each offer something different to the force.

Here's what I see in terms of battlefield rolls for the Asrai:

- Glade Guard: volume of shots; forms the core of the army.
They're already pretty effective, but the Fire and Flee! rule should help them a little.
- Glade Riders: mobile shots; disruption.
I dropped these guys in points significantly (I believe they're more comparable to Dark Riders, now). Also, note that they're S4 at close range, too.
- Warhawk Riders: mobile shots; disruption; close-combat capable.
They have an extra Wound, and they can hit units for auto-S4 hits. So, at close range (which should be easy, since they Fly), they actually get 1 S4 shot with their Asrai longbows, and one or more auto-S4 hit with the hawk. Really, when I look at it that way, I might make it so they can only hit one unit with their Rake/turn. Or that they can't shoot and Rake in the same turn. Otherwise, they'd be putting out more attacks/pt than Glade Guard, and more accurately, too.
- Waywatchers: precise shots; anti-armour
I dropped them by 4pts/model. I think I might go back and let them swap KB for Sniper, with characters getting both automatically.
- Eternal Guard: volume of shots; close-combat capable.
At 15pts/model, these guys are not a good choice for archers, but they're extremely versatile. They're a ranged/anvil unit an sort of anti-horde which I'm pretty happy with. The thing is, for 3pts more, you get +1WS, A, and Ld, +1 armour, Parry, Fight In Extra Ranks, and Stubborn, so Eternal Guard start looking insanely good. But then, at 15pts/model, they're S3 T3, with a 5+/6+, and diminishing returns hit them hard. They still can't stand toe-to-toe with even semi-elite combat troops and hope to come out ahead. So really, what Wood Elves get in this unit is an anvil, something that can deal with hordes relatively well, and they get those things without diminishing their ranged capabilities overmuch.
Honestly, I forgot to give them the Fire and Flee! rule. But now that you mention it, it makes a ton more sense for them to not do that.

If you don't like they way I've changed them or Warhawks or Waywatchers or whatever, how about you show me what you'd do? The "I don't think that's how it should be" response a lot, but that's not very constructive. Tell me what you'd change, and how you'd change it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/23 18:37:02


 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

I'm fine with warhawks and waywatchers, but I think the ethernal guards are still to weak. Let's compare them to the dark elf black guard. A single model of black guard has 2 s 4 attacks the ws of 5 and warrior elite rule, leadership of 9 and they are stubborn. The ethernal guards have the same characteristics, but they have s 3 and don't have the warrior elite rule. They have bows, but dark guard is cheaper by 3 pts.

How would I solve it?

What always comes up on my mind when I think of ethernal guard is a unit that whirls with their double bladed spears, showering the enemy with attacks. What I would do is give 2 attacks to ethernal guard combined with the double bladed spear which would give 3 attacks in total. What I want to achive is to give 3 attacks to the model in the first and second rank. So 10 ethernal guards formed in two ranks would have 30 attacks. In terms of statistics the ethernal guards would be still a weaker in combat then the black guard, they would be a core unit for a higher cost. I think that they would be good enough without bows. If they would get bows , then GW would need to release new ethernal guards as the current models don't have bows. Furthermore many people have whole units of ethernal guards painted nicely if ethernal guards would be re released then they would't buy the new models.

sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Let's break down all the differences. Black Guard have the following over my Eternal Guard:

-3pts/model
+1 Strength in close combat
re-roll To Hit rolls

Eternal Guard have:

Parry save
Fight in Extra Ranks
Asrai Longbows

The Black Guard have +1 attack, but the Eternal Guard effectively have two hand weapons and spears, so the Eternal Guard have more attacks.
The Black Guard also have heavy armour, but the Eternal Guard effectively have shields, so the Eternal Guard have slightly better armour.
So, really, we have to consider halberds and re-rolling To Hit versus Asrai Longbows, Forest Stalkers, Asrai Archery, and +3pts/model.

That is an interesting way of simplifying/intensifying the spear-staff rule, though. Multiple supporting attacks/model. I'll consider that! Simplicity is key.
However, I simply will not allow Eternal Guard as Core. Stubborn Core troops is madness, so the only way to make them remotely fair is to make them cost too much, which is exactly their problem now. They are almost never taken, Core or otherwise, because of their price.
Units shouldn't be "bad" because they're Core or "good" because they're Special; Core units should be the most practical choice to form your army around, because they're all-around solid, where your Special choices should be for special situations, hence the name. Making Core Eternal Guard--and making them over-priced to justify it--doesn't fit with that philosophy.

And as for bows, Games Workshop, and new models, I remind you:

This is a Fandex. It's not the real thing. So I won't let any of that stop me.

Really, my friend and I were talking about Eternal Guard, and we thought it odd that Glade Guard would set down their longbows when they take up the call to become Eternal Guard (because that's exactly what happens). They've got the BS, they've got Asrai Archery. Why not use it? Wild Riders and Wardancers make sense; they're Forest Spirits, now. But Eternal Guard are still "regular" Wood Elves.
So, basically, we thought it logical, and we thought it a good way to make them a good unit again.

That said, I like the idea of multiple supporting attacks/model. I'll probably update the current Spear-Stave rule and maybe drop the bows, and maybe drop the cost, depending on how it looks in the end.

Keep the ideas coming.

 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Lawrence, KS

Work ate my post. To sum up: 15ppm is too high, will get beaten by BG even after all the rounds of shooting, even if the bows are S4 at close range due to BG's I stat. I assume PG will fare even better due to better survivability. That might be fine if you have access to Lore of Life on Spell Singers, but that is not stated. Also, Spell Singers are overcosted at 100ppm. Drop the cost by at least 25, if not 35.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/24 14:08:33


Therion wrote:
6th edition lands on June 23rd!

Good news. This is the best time in the hobby. Full of promise. GW lets us down each time and we know it but secretly we're hoping that this is the edition that GW gives us a balanced game that can also be played competitively at tournaments. I'm loving it.
 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

I hope that you will update ethernal guard soon. I looked at the spells from the lore of anthel lore. All of them are cool. All of them accept one are balanced. Murder of spites is more powerfull then the dwellers below. It has 3 times longer range. In some cases it kills unit more effectively and
is a powerfull hex as well. Let me give you an exammple, both of the spells are cast against a unit of 10 cold one knights. Murder of spites will most likey kill 5 cold one nights and lower characteristics of the remaining 5.When casting dwellers below 3 cold one knights are going to die as cold one knight fails it's strenght test on 5+ = 1/3 . This is not balanced as level 1 or 2 wizzard are able to have more powerfull spell then level 3 or 4. How would I solve it? The murder of spites would't grant any hits on enemy instead it would modify movement, balistic skill, weapon skill, strenght, toughness, intiative by d3 and the number of wounds by 1 up to a minimum of 1.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/24 14:52:41


sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





There. A few things updated. Most of it was correcting errors, but some of it was swapping things around. Waywatchers and Wardancers and Warhawk Riders.

I switched up Eternal Guard. I dropped their bows, not because I think they'd be too good or anything, but because they should cost less. 14pts for Stubborn models with 3 attacks and 3 supporting attacks seems pretty fair. A Horde would throw out 90 attacks, and that's just funny.

As for the Big Spell, yeah, I forgot to change the ranges back on that. But I do not think it was better than Dwellers, or even as good. A longer range and some stat penalties aside, Dwellers can insta-kill characters, and that's just sick. I'm tired of losing my lvl4 Wizard to a single spell along with half of my 50 guys.
Anyway, I changed it up again. Murder of Spites is supposed to be a way for Wood Elves to deal with large numbers of enemies, so dealing wounds needs to be part of the effect, or (as it is now) the only effect.

Not sure what you're driving at, with lvl1's and 2's getting better spells than 3's and 4's. How does that affect this spell's balance?

Also, why on earth would you cast Dwellers on a unit of 10 guys, let alone 10 guys wit S4? Now that unit of 30 Witch Elves, on the other hand...

 
   
 
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