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Alright Dakka !
I see 3D printing is becoming a recurring subject in many discussions and articles, and not only in war gaming forums.
As I see it the race has started, it's only a matter of time before decent 3D printers hit the consumer market.
As an avid war gamer, my first thoughts were about the future of GW and other model companies. ( Well after I got over the fact they are trying to print food )

What will happen to GW ? They currently have most of the market in there pocket, but I'm worried they might fail to adapt.

Another question pops to mind, would they make the hobby cheaper ? And in a way allow many new comers to flood the market, the pricing not being so steep ?

As for the hobby itself, I'm curious to see what direction it will take. More creativity seems the 1'st logical consequence. Anybody with a printer and a handle on 3D design can spawn a infinite number of models.

Anyway, I'm curious to see what others have to say on the topic, I for one am looking forwards to this.

Cheers,
May

well, we use a cupcake cnc for master minis that we then produce mastermolds for.

our aim is to use our makerbot 2 replicator for production as soon as we get the new compound for it we've been holding out for.

But as far as implications? Let's just say that we're going to have our potential customers loving what we're going to do for basic models

And that's today, in say five years time, imagine what this tech will do to the our hobby

I was thinking about this too - apparently there's a hobby website somewhere where people upload files for others to download free, containing all sorts of products they've made. If GW models were to be reproduced closely (without being illegally close, if you get what I mean) and uploaded around, miniatures companies will lose out big time.

Personally, I must admit that if 3D printers become the new household printer - I've heard these predictions several times - I will be creating my own squads through them. Not illegally, but as said earlier, in a similar style, like those companies who I can't quite remember the names of right now.

I've been looking at 3D printers for a while now. They're cool, but I really don't see them becoming a legitimate alternative to buying models in the same way that normal printers never became a legitimate alternative to buying books.

One thing I've noticed is that 3D printing anything tends to be slow, and the time increases with better resolution. I've sampled a few 3D printers and wouldn't use anything above 100 microns layer thickness, which excludes quite a few of the 'home' models out at the moment.

@xcasex... could you give some info? are you really looking at selling models made by a 3D printer? what models, and do you have estimates on cost per model and time per model?

Trasvi, Well yes. we're developing two games atm, and have some illustrators doing stellar stuff (yeah who wouldnt say something like that.) Anyway, our process looks like this: illustration -> zbrush -> adjustment in solidworks -> 3dprinter.

Currently we use a cupcake cnc for dinking around while waiting for the makerbot.
The makerbot will enable us to construct the sprues to make mastermolds from.

industrialising of a process to create whole miniatures for packaging/distribution isnt cheap with a fused deposition / additive manufacturing printer. so we're not doing that.

However, our aim is to use a set of stereolithographic printers to produce our mini's down the road. (stereolitography like with the form1 actually uses resin, huzzah!)

the CPM with the form1 isnt prohibitive by the least since it uses resin but other factors add to the cost (electricity, leadtime, additional cost for packaging since we're not outsourcing it, but it'll be manageable) I'll ensure to revisit it when we have received ours

 Commander Jimbob wrote:
Personally, I must admit that if 3D printers become the new household printer - I've heard these predictions several times - I will be creating my own squads through them. Not illegally, but as said earlier, in a similar style, like those companies who I can't quite remember the names of right now.

I can't see it going that far. Really, how often does the average household actually need the services of a 3d printer (and the material and maintenance costs)? Unless the costs really crash, it's going to be more practical 99% of the time to just go down the shops and buy the items. Of course, the shop itself may switch to using printers to make these items, possibly a set-up where you bring in your blueprints and they make whatever you want and they charge you for it. But 3d printing in the home doesn't seem to have the immediate obvious benefits that other technologies have had.

As a side note, am I the only one who doesn't like the term "3d printer"? Just sounds too....functional. "Replicator" or "Fabricator" sounds a bit more interestingly futuristic.

 Elemental wrote:

 Commander Jimbob wrote:
Personally, I must admit that if 3D printers become the new household printer - I've heard these predictions several times - I will be creating my own squads through them. Not illegally, but as said earlier, in a similar style, like those companies who I can't quite remember the names of right now.

I can't see it going that far. Really, how often does the average household actually need the services of a 3d printer (and the material and maintenance costs)? Unless the costs really crash, it's going to be more practical 99% of the time to just go down the shops and buy the items.

Fair point, but wasn't that said about computers? I understand that it's not just the device itself you're buying, but the powder material too - but with technological advancements surely comes workarounds?

 Commander Jimbob wrote:
Fair point, but wasn't that said about computers? I understand that it's not just the device itself you're buying, but the powder material too - but with technological advancements surely comes workarounds?

Sometimes that happens, but it's not inevitable, it depends on the technology. Once computers were affordable, it was obvious why you might want to buy one. They let you enjoy completely new forms of entertainment and could automate a lot of work which had been tedious up to that point. And bear in mind that computers were around for quite some time before they became practical for home use.

If I get a 3d printer in my home.....no matter how good the machine becomes, what am I actually going to use it for? How often in my everyday life do I need a small object in a few specific materials making, and need it so urgently that I can't just go down the shops and get it? With miniatures, unless I'm making them en masse for selling, I think it's more likely that I'd just take a blueprint to a games store and use their machine, which is probably higher quality than a home model anyway. I think that business model's more likely than having a printer in every home, at least until the price comes way down.

Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

Disney are already creating files for home 3D printable toys, if a large company like Disney are getting behind the technology it's when not if that it will happen. They also believe that the user is far more likely to use downloaded files to create products rather than create there own, this means that it's likely this sort of technology won't be rolled out until they figure out sufficient data security to trump piracy.

Plastics will hang on longer but those finecast models? Dead. You can now matter print with basic colour. Quick dip and spray and done. Already I have friends who have made 6mm wargames armies using work printers. They reckon they aren't that far away from being able to print injection moulds.

Check out something like shapeways.com and you will see a glimpse of what 3d printing might become. I think in the home you probably wont see a printer as it's not cost effective. Yet imagine an online repository full of designs (GW could have their own). You could browse through, find the models, weapons, tanks, or shouldr pads you like and they print them out and mail it to you! Miniature companies would stil be viable as they would have the best models at the nicest resolutions. Plus it would be cheaper for them as they could have 3d artists all over the world designing new minis for them. If GW (and frankly any other model company) doesn't catch on they'll be behind in a few years.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

And GW is not even the most expensive. Model per model, PP is the same price and lots of models are more expensive. While it may standardize prices as printing eliminates molds and cast batches to spread prices around, I don't see it becoming drastically cheaper. The market bears the cost and everyone besides GW charges similar prices. I feel like 3D printing will reach a standard price once quality and materials work themselves out, but I don't see getting hundreds of space marines for 50cents a model.

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

The thing with piracy though, is that it grows exponentially, the higher the prices for legit items are. Think back to when DVD's came out. The pirates didn't have the technology to copy em like they had with videotapes, so the studios started jacking up the price until you could find yourself paying £20+ for a new release. The pirates got on the case and soon were selling dvd's in pubs and workplaces for a pound a go. Because of that, the studios had to bring their prices back down to encourage folk to buy legit. It was the same with CD's once MP3's reared their pirate-friendly head. Blu Ray prices are coming down now because pirate technology has caught up. If and when 3d printing becomes commonplace and good enough for people to generate their own models, GW will have to bring their prices down, or go the way of places like virgin megastores, zavvi, HMV et all. You gets greedy, the customer gets creative.

Not saying it's right or anything, its just a fact of capitalist economics.

nkelsch wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

And GW is not even the most expensive. Model per model, PP is the same price and lots of models are more expensive. While it may standardize prices as printing eliminates molds and cast batches to spread prices around, I don't see it becoming drastically cheaper. The market bears the cost and everyone besides GW charges similar prices. I feel like 3D printing will reach a standard price once quality and materials work themselves out, but I don't see getting hundreds of space marines for 50cents a model.

a 1kg spool of abs filament is $48, a printed 28mm mini (hollow core) is roughly 3 grams (if not less). So you're right, it's more 0,10 than 0,50.

 xcasex wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

And GW is not even the most expensive. Model per model, PP is the same price and lots of models are more expensive. While it may standardize prices as printing eliminates molds and cast batches to spread prices around, I don't see it becoming drastically cheaper. The market bears the cost and everyone besides GW charges similar prices. I feel like 3D printing will reach a standard price once quality and materials work themselves out, but I don't see getting hundreds of space marines for 50cents a model.

a 1kg spool of abs filament is $48, a printed 28mm mini (hollow core) is roughly 3 grams (if not less). So you're right, it's more 0,10 than 0,50.

And plastic is cheap. So what?

You have to off-set the machine cost for home 'pirates' and using 3rd party stores, will require a cost that covers materials, machine and wear and tear.

This also assumes companies and independent artists make 3D models for freeeeeeeee.

The quality is just way off at the moment.


That looks pretty crappy to me.

Though this Russ is passable:



So I don't think GW have much to worry about *at the moment*.

I think if it did catch off, it would kill GW as we know it. Best case scenario, they go bankrupt and someone buys up the IP for cheap and releases rules/a few special models periodically, or maybe sells them pre-basecoated or with more transfers.

Worst case scenario the IP goes down with the ship and we never get a new ruleset, and the kids stop coming into it.

those are both 1-2nd gen fused deposition / additive manufacturing printers, repraps & cupcake cnc.

This is where we're at atm testify.




on top of this the stereolitographic printer by form1 produces this.

Out of resin.

and this is just two different 4th gen devices made affordable to the public, there's an even broader spectrum availible when it comes to industrial printers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 xcasex wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Piracy. No need to further elaborate on that, other than saying that it will happen...and GW kinda asks for it.

How are GW asking for their intellelectual property to be copied without permission?

They do not explicitely ask for it. They are more like..."provoking" piracy. Extremely high prices are a major reason for piracy and I guess we can agree on this being the case with GW.

I don't want to promote piracy, not at all, I'm just theory-crafting.

Extremely high prices are a nessesity of having high over-heads. Prices are going up everywhere.

And GW is not even the most expensive. Model per model, PP is the same price and lots of models are more expensive. While it may standardize prices as printing eliminates molds and cast batches to spread prices around, I don't see it becoming drastically cheaper. The market bears the cost and everyone besides GW charges similar prices. I feel like 3D printing will reach a standard price once quality and materials work themselves out, but I don't see getting hundreds of space marines for 50cents a model.

a 1kg spool of abs filament is $48, a printed 28mm mini (hollow core) is roughly 3 grams (if not less). So you're right, it's more 0,10 than 0,50.

And plastic is cheap. So what?

You have to off-set the machine cost for home 'pirates' and using 3rd party stores, will require a cost that covers materials, machine and wear and tear.

This also assumes companies and independent artists make 3D models for freeeeeeeee.

punch in "warhammer stl cad" into google. and peruse thingiverse and the bay's "physibles" category. yeah, it's already produced, today, for free. The way to offset this for companies is to sell premium sculpts at the current price and provide barebones, non-detailed stl files for sale at a cheap price. Or, we'll have the IPR gak we have from the media industry today. Me? I hope for the former and know what our strategy is.

Of course none of those are of a quality approaching GW's plastics. Or anywhere close.

 Testify wrote:
Of course none of those are of a quality approaching GW's plastics. Or anywhere close.

you realise that you're just spewing verbal diarrhea, quality of what plastics? you're a chemical engineer? if you are a chemical engineer, surely you realise that the filament used can be ordered to be practically anything.
anywhere close to.. that's 100 microns which means that the detail level is 0,1mm, a TENTH of a mm.
It's far beyond "good enough".

 xcasex wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Of course none of those are of a quality approaching GW's plastics. Or anywhere close.

you realise that you're just spewing verbal diarrhea, quality of what plastics? you're a chemical engineer? if you are a chemical engineer, surely you realise that the filament used can be ordered to be practically anything.
anywhere close to.. that's 100 microns which means that the detail level is 0,1mm, a TENTH of a mm.
It's far beyond "good enough".

Then why do those pictures look like gak?

I'm not a chemical engineer, but I'm one of those old fashioned types who judges based on evidence. The pictures you provided are no where close to GW quality.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Testify on this one. You can argue specs all day long but the actual proof will always be what comes out at the end of the process.

 Testify wrote:

 xcasex wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Of course none of those are of a quality approaching GW's plastics. Or anywhere close.

you realise that you're just spewing verbal diarrhea, quality of what plastics? you're a chemical engineer? if you are a chemical engineer, surely you realise that the filament used can be ordered to be practically anything.
anywhere close to.. that's 100 microns which means that the detail level is 0,1mm, a TENTH of a mm.
It's far beyond "good enough".

Then why do those pictures look like gak?

I'm not a chemical engineer, but I'm one of those old fashioned types who judges based on evidence. The pictures you provided are no where close to GW quality.

What is demostrated in those pics is..

Thin detail and minimum tolerances, a sheet of paper level, is easily as good as anything GW has produced in that arena..and likely way to thin for gaming ..but still impressive.

Percision fitting of parts, for moving and hinged points (turrets, wheels ect ect )

And small detail and porportion control, on that very small figure, with some very good, abit soft details.

All in all you have alot of potential even now..next year this time who knows, but considering the pace they are improving at...Looks like I will be starting my 3D printer savings fund, I was saving for a fancy gaming table , but this may be better

All we will need is some easy to use rendering software, or scanning booths and the cottage miniature hobby craze will be on, I myself will be watching this development very closely.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

What is demostrated in those pics is..
easily as good as anything GW has produced in that arena.

I think you see what you want to see mate.


vs

And you like to clip sentences..I was refering to thickness of plastic, not over all detail.

Naturally Testify, you will want to prove your confirmation bias.

What is showing in those linked pictures I posted is level of detail, thi.. basically everything Soova... yeah that guy wrote.

now if we're arguing that the current GW models are more detailed? then yes. you're right, they're also sculpted by hand (from my understanding the only thing getting a cad treatment currently is vehicles) so apples meet oranges.

You need to be able to discern facts, i.e the potential of 3dprintery cornucopia vs. gw sculpted minis.

there's precisely nothing hindering anyone from producing anything more / as detailed as the gw sculpts.

but what you're really arguing is that since nobody is producing something as detailed as the gw sculpts that makes all 3d printed objects "am the suxx!!11!" which is foolish at best and plain ignorant at worst.

the question is, Can you do as detailed prints with a current-gen 3d printer today? the answer to that is a resounding, yes.