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Made in us
Been Around the Block




You should be able to shoot into combat. Every 1 you roll hits one of your guys. Sorry if this was already beaten to death.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




WA, USA

Well, Skaven can do it, but this would really break things.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/29 03:19:48


 Ouze wrote:

Afterward, Curran killed a guy in the parking lot with a trident.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Agent Provocateur






Since when is shooting useless?

Have you ever been on the receiving end of a lucky roll of 20+ Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen? Or High Elves with the Curse of Arrow Attraction on a unit? Or a decent sized unit of Ogre Leadbelchers?

With the rule you're proposing, a viable tactic would be to tie up an opponent's unit with a tarpit, then shoot them to death as they're stuck there. That's one of the reasons people complain about buses of Skavenslaves. You're allowed to shoot into combat, if the enemy unit is in combat with only a unit of Skavenslaves.

The possibility for cheese there is pretty endless. Especially if you have a unit with a good Armor Save tarpitting your Opponent - think High Elf White Lions, or Dark Elf Corsairs, (both of which have improved saves vs. Shooting) then firing away into the unit with Dark Elf Repeater Xbowmen or High Elf Archers, with a 1/6 chance to hit your own unit, and a good chance to save it anyway?

No offense man but first of all, you offer no reason behind your proposal, and also, what you're proposing is neither fluffy nor to anybody's benefit.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Shooting in WHFB has a kind of simple rule.

Regular unit = X stats
Shooting unit = X - Y stats

Shooting unit, ON AVERAGE, kills Y units as Regular units close in combat. Therefore, they should be about identical. That's it very simplistically.

Ranged units are just sucky melee units with...ranged. So you're supposed to use your superior generaling skills to keep your ranged out of combat and maximize your Y units killed. If you kill 2Y, you have made up for the fact they are suckier units.

A cannon, as good as it is, if it only kills 50 pts of units, didn't make its points back.

The same can go for anything, really. A wizard is just a really expensive melee unit that can do other stuff. But if the fireballs and buffs and dispels and whatever it casts doesn't equal the premium it paid for being a wizard, then you would have been better off buying mass pikemen instead.

   
Made in au
Dangerous Outrider





DukeRustfield wrote:
Shooting in WHFB has a kind of simple rule.

Regular unit = X stats
Shooting unit = X - Y stats

Shooting unit, ON AVERAGE, kills Y units as Regular units close in combat. Therefore, they should be about identical. That's it very simplistically.

Ranged units are just sucky melee units with...ranged. So you're supposed to use your superior generaling skills to keep your ranged out of combat and maximize your Y units killed. If you kill 2Y, you have made up for the fact they are suckier units.

A cannon, as good as it is, if it only kills 50 pts of units, didn't make its points back.

The same can go for anything, really. A wizard is just a really expensive melee unit that can do other stuff. But if the fireballs and buffs and dispels and whatever it casts doesn't equal the premium it paid for being a wizard, then you would have been better off buying mass pikemen instead.
If you're shooting a cannon at 5 point models then either you're doing it wrong or your opponent uses a pure hoard army. and Wizards, why don't you think they can make their 65 points back? i.e. killing a dozen enemies.

though I don't think range units are particularly good I still like to have them, sitting in wait for a Hoard of Chaos to roll down on me while I do nothing is an extremely unappealing thought.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If it was 100% certain a cannon would always make its points back, or any unit for that matter, it could be declared 100% broken as of right now and removed from the game.

Cannons have rules regarding their use which can easily prevent them from regaining their points. There are ways to maximize them of course, but there are also ways to counter them.

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





It isn't as simple as points cost and points of damage inflicted.


There is tremendous advantage to be had in forcing your opponent to close with your troops as soon as possible. While I might not kill my points worth of enemy troops, being able to inflict damage on him from range means he has to take up the initiative and attack me, allowing me to set up a solid defensive block and watch him come at me. This works very well with the Empire's detachment rule, where the counter charge rule is quite dependant on the opponent being under time pressure to get into combat (else they'll just spend another turn to set up a charge against your detachment instead).

And having some ranged units mean my opponent cannot pop his vulnerable characters out of their units before combat. If I have no ranged units and my opponent's is about to have his mage or BSB's unit in combat, he'll think nothing of popping them out the back and keeping them safe. Instead he has to make a choice between either braving my ranged shooting, or my melee attacks. Even a small unit of shooting troops can force this difficult choice.

And while the average time before combat is met is 1 or 2 turns, that's only really the case if the attacker sets up a line across the front of his deployment. Deploying deep and sending forward delaying/diverting troops can allow your missile troops to hammer an enemy unit for three or four turns before combat.


Now, I'm not saying shooting in general couldn't do with a boost. Missile troops in most books are overpriced, and because of that just don't deliver the damage they should for their price. But the answer to that in most cases is a slight drop in points cost, or a special rule for that missile unit to make them a little more deadly. That's all that's really needed.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yah I didn't mean it was that entirely. A lot of people who buy cannons buy two cannons because one is too easily countered. So all that stuff has to be thought about.

I mean, I think if you didn't have a -1 range penalty for long range, you'd see the return of gunlines. They kicked ranged weapons in the nads in 8th because some armies just devolved into shoot-fests. And WHFB isn't a US Civil War reenactment. They even say at one point in the BRB that warhammer is all about characters and challenges. Or something to that effect. So I think it was a really conscious choice to make it more of a slugfest.

The problem is they have these mass of legacy army books around. Anything they change changes them all.

Still, I don't think they are that bad. It's just with magic buffs and super duper elite units (like mournfang and company), getting a sucky potshot off for one round isn't worth the premium you pay.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I should have been more specific. I am talking about archers. I agree this is supposed to be a melee game but then give the archers some sort of melee ability.... Something! I think everyone can agree that archers are not worth the cost or I would be seeing a lot more of them in the batreps I am seeing.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Perhaps the biggest deal is the range of most shooting weapons is too short. If it was longer, you could be causing casualities sooner and for longer.


So perhaps make Bows and Crossbows have a range of 40", handguns have a range of 30", Longbows have a range of 48", and Shortbows and Slings have a range of 24".

That would easily give you 2 more rounds of shooting with most weapons.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





guzzoid wrote:
I agree this is supposed to be a melee game but then give the archers some sort of melee ability.... Something!

All archers have a melee ability. It's called melee. They just aren't as good at it as pure CC troops. If they were, you'd never buy a pure melee troop (for roughly the same cost) because they can't shoot.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I'll have to say that shooting into combat is a big ol' No. It's not a good idea, from a general's perspective, and it takes away one of the most characterizing aspects of the Skaven army.

Duke and Sebster have the right of it. Some missile troops are too expensive for what you get.

@Grey Templar: extra range might be too far, since it allows those units not only to start shooting sooner, but also shoot at units they wouldn't normally reach throughout the game. I think you should be able to hide the more fragile aspects of your army from enemy fire at least mostly successfully.

Personally, there is nothing I dislike more when I sit down to play Warhammer than to face an opponent with the single goal of slowing me down and shooting/magic'ing me, and then to avoid combat at all costs.
Actually, I should clarify: there's nothing I dislike more than when my opponent succeeds in doing the above.
I don't care if I lose. I even prefer it, from time to time. But only if I get to play the game. Losing because I was denied to do anything fun is awful. It's like you sat down to watch someone else have fun, and also that they're better than you.

With all that said:

- many troops should see a drop in cost (I'm lookin' at you, High Elf and Dwarf missile troops).
It should be noted: I do not think Wood Elves need a drop in the cost of their missile troops. They just need a whole new book (which I'm working on, in a different thread).

I think paying 10pts for a Dwarf Quarreler and something like 13 for a Thunderer would be fair. High Elf Archers need something similar.

- Throwing weapons should go back to having no short/long range. Getting a -1 to Hit because I'm more than 3" from a unit with my throwing starts is stupid.

I've always thought that Empire Handgunners and the like offered some decent shooting. What do you guys think? Anyone else out there who needs a cost adjustment?

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





DukeRustfield wrote:
Yah I didn't mean it was that entirely. A lot of people who buy cannons buy two cannons because one is too easily countered. So all that stuff has to be thought about.

I mean, I think if you didn't have a -1 range penalty for long range, you'd see the return of gunlines. They kicked ranged weapons in the nads in 8th because some armies just devolved into shoot-fests. And WHFB isn't a US Civil War reenactment. They even say at one point in the BRB that warhammer is all about characters and challenges. Or something to that effect. So I think it was a really conscious choice to make it more of a slugfest.


Defitinitely, and that's always the big risk with tinkering with stuff like this. Make one cannon or one block of missile troops pretty good for its cost, and people will take double, triple or more. All of a suddent we're back to tournament competitive gunlines again, and no-one wants that. Well, except people that like saying 'my turn - everything stands still, now onto Magic', which is a lot more popular than it really should be.

Still, I don't think they are that bad. It's just with magic buffs and super duper elite units (like mournfang and company), getting a sucky potshot off for one round isn't worth the premium you pay.


Yeah. That's why I think the solution is to drop the cost of missile troops just a little. Make it so that it is valuable, and not too expensive, to have a unit or two of shooting, but not so effective that a full army of missile troops can expect to wipe the enemy from the field, and I think the balance would be just about right.

With the rise of mega-blocks of troops in 8th ed they're almost there (gunlines did a lot better when the dominant meta was powerful characters and a small number of bodyguard troops). They're not too far off having that balance now, if they just dropped the points costs a little.

I mean, you could have 7 point crossbowmen and handgunners, and you still wouldn't see gun lines shooting the many of the current tournament standard lists off the field. Instead they went the other way, they increased the price by one instead of dropping it by one, and the result is that missile troops are too pricy, even for a small support unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/04 07:13:48


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in ae
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






I like the rule, it may make Wood Elves useful.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Wood Elves don't need help in the shooting phase. They need help being a not bad army.

 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Warpsolution wrote:
Wood Elves don't need help in the shooting phase. They need help being a not bad army.


And how are those two not related?

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
I like the rule, it may make Wood Elves useful.


It's a really bad idea to try and balance one army by changing a general rule. It would improve Wood Elves, but it would also improve other armies, and in largely silly ways.

Step 1) Buy 2 or 3 units of 50+ spearmen. Spend rest of points on missile troops (read as many helblasters as possible, and the rest of handgunners and crossbowmen) and a couple of characters to ensure spearmen will hold in combat (general and BSB should do it, possibly with a bunker to put them in).

Step 2) Deploy spearmen in bus formation. Deploy shooting troops.

Step 3) Charge spearmen into enemy combat blocks. Stand there getting hammered in each combat turn, but maintaining steadfast. Fire mass of shooting troops into enemy. Be indifferent to losses caused by rolling a 1.

Grind out a boring, but likely successful game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/04 07:20:44


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Exactly right, as usual.

@Grey Templar: allow me to clarify- From what I've seen (and the equations I've done), Glade Guard, are good at what they do. It's just that the units that are supposed to help them out are over-costed and/or under-powered, coupled with a lack-luster lore and so on.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




What do people think of eliminating the -1 to hit for range on crossbows and handguns, the downside is that at over half range you lose armor piercing. Buffs and nerfs shooting.
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Why negate the -1 for crossbows and handguns, but not other weapons?

 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

Warpsolution wrote:
I'll have to say that shooting into combat is a big ol' No. It's not a good idea, from a general's perspective, and it takes away one of the most characterizing aspects of the Skaven army.

Duke and Sebster have the right of it. Some missile troops are too expensive for what you get.

@Grey Templar: extra range might be too far, since it allows those units not only to start shooting sooner, but also shoot at units they wouldn't normally reach throughout the game. I think you should be able to hide the more fragile aspects of your army from enemy fire at least mostly successfully.

Personally, there is nothing I dislike more when I sit down to play Warhammer than to face an opponent with the single goal of slowing me down and shooting/magic'ing me, and then to avoid combat at all costs.
Actually, I should clarify: there's nothing I dislike more than when my opponent succeeds in doing the above.
I don't care if I lose. I even prefer it, from time to time. But only if I get to play the game. Losing because I was denied to do anything fun is awful. It's like you sat down to watch someone else have fun, and also that they're better than you.

With all that said:

- many troops should see a drop in cost (I'm lookin' at you, High Elf and Dwarf missile troops).
It should be noted: I do not think Wood Elves need a drop in the cost of their missile troops. They just need a whole new book (which I'm working on, in a different thread).

I think paying 10pts for a Dwarf Quarreler and something like 13 for a Thunderer would be fair. High Elf Archers need something similar.

- Throwing weapons should go back to having no short/long range. Getting a -1 to Hit because I'm more than 3" from a unit with my throwing starts is stupid.

I've always thought that Empire Handgunners and the like offered some decent shooting. What do you guys think? Anyone else out there who needs a cost adjustment?


Getting back to wood elfs, they should get fire and flee, rally and shoot and S4 at long range if the cost of quarrels is to be reduced to 10 points. Quarrles already have better Toughness armour and leadership. They have worse balistic skill,but that evens out, because they shoot at S4 at long range. Don't forget that wood elfs are supposed to be a bit better in archery for the same cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firing to combat, why not if with a high risk of hurting your own units. Every time a unit shoots to combat K6 is to be rolled. On roll of 3 or less hit is resolved against the friendly unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/11 17:54:52


sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

It's so unfluffy! I could see why shaven would do it with their slaves but imagine dwarfs firing a cannon or grugethrower into say a unit of hammers containing their lord! It makes no sense!
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





This thread is over 4 months old. Start up a new one, please.

 
   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

BaconUprising wrote:
It's so unfluffy! I could see why shaven would do it with their slaves but imagine dwarfs firing a cannon or grugethrower into say a unit of hammers containing their lord! It makes no sense!
It makes sens. No one will fire a gruge thrower in such conditions unless he wants to take a very big risk of hurting his own units. Warmachines should be able to shoot in to combat, if there is scatter on the artilery dice then there is high chance of hurting your own units.

sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

Whats your point? You are still firing into the unit and causing casualtys to them which makes no sense with most armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/17 20:09:10


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





/sigh

Shooting into combat is a tactic that few generals could afford. There's no better way to loose your position than to command your troops to fire upon each other.

The Skaven concept is that, well, life is cheap. The whole race accepts this as truth, so when their leaders make the call to kill some of their own, the survivors don't think "hey, he's willing to kill his own troops! That means I could be next! We'd better take care of him". Instead, the Skaven culture has pounded it into their heads that "eh. It wasn't me. Besides, I always hated those guys".

People who don't think BS-based shooting is worth while have never faced off against an army that has a lot of it. Dark Elf Repeater Crossbowmen, Glade Guard, and Dwarf Quarrelers can all hold their own. If you only invest in 100pts of them, don't expect them to do too much, no matter what they are.

 
   
 
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