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So, i wanna know from peoples experience. Do you like Ratling snipers? What are some pros, and cons? Are they worth taking in an ig army?

N][X  
   
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[DCM]
Resident Ethicist




Champaign, IL

NO!?!

pros - they're cheap

cons - they're useless, they waste a slot that is much better spent on stormies, they're not terribly likely to kill much, and they don't do very much damage, and sniper weapons still have a poor kill rate, even after all these rules editions, and they tend not to hurt very much.


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If they could score? Yes. Otherwise they're kind of just wasting points.

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They wound on a 4+ regardless of the victim's toughness, so perfect for those monstrous creatures.

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 nixspit666 wrote:
So, i wanna know from peoples experience. Do you like Ratling snipers? What are some pros, and cons? Are they worth taking in an ig army?
You know, I watched a buddy run a couple today, and he did quite well with them. He had them sit just off an objective and protect the last few guys he had on that objective, and managed to kill a surprising number of troops. I'd say take them. Think of it this way, you will gain bonus points for fluff in more ways than one.

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Inquisitor Jex wrote:
They wound on a 4+ regardless of the victim's toughness, so perfect for those monstrous creatures.


You know what also wounds on at least a 4+? A plasma gun.

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 Peregrine wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
They wound on a 4+ regardless of the victim's toughness, so perfect for those monstrous creatures.


You know what also wounds on at least a 4+? A plasma gun.


Yeah, but the sniper rifle got 12 inches of range over it, and doesn't have a 1/6 chance of blowing in your face, and pinning.
   
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Inquisitor Jex wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
They wound on a 4+ regardless of the victim's toughness, so perfect for those monstrous creatures.


You know what also wounds on at least a 4+? A plasma gun.


Yeah, but the sniper rifle got 12 inches of range over it, and doesn't have a 1/6 chance of blowing in your face, and pinning.


So what? It also has AP 2 with all of its wounds, not just 1/3 of them, has a non-trivial chance of damaging vehicles, and can fire twice as many shots within 12". Sniper rifles are garbage, even when you consider their (garbage) performance against MCs.

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[DCM]
Resident Ethicist




Champaign, IL

If what I wanted was a mediocre anti-infantry weapon with pinning, I'd take mortars. Yeah, they're a bit more expensive, but I'd rather have 2 mortar HWSs than a 10 ratling squad.


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 Peregrine wrote:
Inquisitor Jex wrote:
They wound on a 4+ regardless of the victim's toughness, so perfect for those monstrous creatures.


You know what also wounds on at least a 4+? A plasma gun.


except a T9 Tervigon ... shudder ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ailaros wrote:
If what I wanted was a mediocre anti-infantry weapon with pinning, I'd take mortars. Yeah, they're a bit more expensive, but I'd rather have 2 mortar HWSs than a 10 ratling squad.



Hmm, I'd rather have the Ratlings. It's a simple answer/reason though. I like them, and hate mortars. I'm a fan of infiltrate, and I can justify their cheap price, at least in casual games.

Competitive, no. Wait, not just no, hell no. Than again hell no to mortars too, bring me those Lascannons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/02 05:15:36


   
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Trustworthy Shas'vre





Well, I assume then if you want snipers anyway, and got an elite spot to spare (somehow), they are not anu'va bad.

Sure, they wont kill that much, and wont take too much punishment, but at least they didn't take too much resources.

Only reason I actually see them do a good job is if the enemy player has a spam of high-range high-toughness critters.
   
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 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, I assume then if you want snipers anyway, and got an elite spot to spare (somehow), they are not anu'va bad.


Yes.

Yes they are.

They're wasting an elite slot.

And points.

And time/energy gluing them to their bases/reaching into your pocket to grab money and pay for them.

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Not to mention those ratling models wasted pewter that could've been made as more lascannons.

You know what else is good at sniping things? Lascannons. Even if you can't single things out, whatever you hit with it usually dies anyways

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Even If you use Bring it down on them to twin link their shooting at an MC, EVEN IF. They still fail hard.

There are much better uses of 30-100 points/ an elite slot in the guard codex.

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 TheCaptain wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, I assume then if you want snipers anyway, and got an elite spot to spare (somehow), they are not anu'va bad.


Yes.

Yes they are.

They're wasting an elite slot.

And points.

And time/energy gluing them to their bases/reaching into your pocket to grab money and pay for them.


You mean they are bad enough to be better off with nothing at all rather then them?
Because that's how bad anu'va is.


Again, they are by no means GOOD, or even DECENT-but at least they won't hard your own army beyond wasting slots and points...
   
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 BoomWolf wrote:
Again, they are by no means GOOD, or even DECENT-but at least they won't hard your own army beyond wasting slots and points...


Which isn't really saying very much, since very few units are that bad. For those of us who expect more from our units than "it would be better than just playing with 100 points less in your list" ratlings, and snipers in general, are garbage.

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The real thing that makes ratlings a bad unit is their 6 LD, not their damage output. It just costs too many points to try and keep them from running off the table.

10 sniper rifles is actually a pretty good unit. Remember precise shots on rolls of 6. Very good for taking out the teeth of a unit or removing LD upgrades.
   
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Glocknall wrote:


10 sniper rifles is actually a pretty good unit. Remember precise shots on rolls of 6. Very good for taking out the teeth of a unit or removing LD upgrades.


Not really.

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Just to flip the dice a bit.
So Ratlings currently aren't good, but what would you say that needed to be changed in order to make them good.

Some special rule? A change in the sniper rifle?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/02 17:35:03


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loner wrote:
Just to flip the dice a bit.
So Ratlings currently aren't good, but what would you say that needed to be changed in order to make them good.

Some special rule? A change in the sniper rifle?


Snipers need to be more consistently able to precision shot, or rend.

They also need higher Ld and a better cover save.

Then they'd be worth it.

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loner wrote:
Just to flip the dice a bit.
So Ratlings currently aren't good, but what would you say that needed to be changed in order to make them good.

Some special rule? A change in the sniper rifle?


Better strength so you're doing better than a 4+ on T3 models. STR 4-5, with a rule that makes you wound on at least a 4+ no matter how high the target's toughness is.

Better AP so 2/3 of your wounds aren't just bouncing off armor saves.

And of course making ratlings scoring would be the easy way to "fix" the unit without making sniper rifles more useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Glocknall wrote:
Remember precise shots on rolls of 6. Very good for taking out the teeth of a unit or removing LD upgrades.


The problem with precise shots is that it's on the hit roll, not the wound roll, so you still need a 4+ to wound, and another 6 to get an AP 1 wound that actually kills the target.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/02 17:41:35


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 TheCaptain wrote:
Snipers need to be more consistently able to precision shot, or rend.

They also need higher Ld and a better cover save.

Then they'd be worth it.


Sniper rifles do need a bit of something thrown their way. Maybe specialist sniper units could get precision on a 5+? That could be too powerful though. The cover save isn't so bad, as ratlings have stealth for a 3+ cover save in most terrain.

I wish they still had the old rule where they could opt to be pinned instead of falling back. That way they could still try to fire snap shots or take a rallying order.

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You know what they are good at?
Killing a Quad gun.
Let's assume you're building a lot of with a lot of flyers and scoring units inside those flyers.
You want to be able to kill the quadgun (T7 3+ armor, 4+ cover) turn 1. Turn 2 is too late.

Given that objective, Ratlings are good at getting that job done.
Point for point, they are twice as good at quadgun killing as lascannon teams.

Ratlings on their own aren't worth it. Ratlings for the Synergy of Quadgun killing in a flyer heavy list is worth it.
   
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HawaiiMatt wrote:
You know what they are good at?
Killing a Quad gun.
Let's assume you're building a lot of with a lot of flyers and scoring units inside those flyers.
You want to be able to kill the quadgun (T7 3+ armor, 4+ cover) turn 1. Turn 2 is too late.

Given that objective, Ratlings are good at getting that job done.
Point for point, they are twice as good at quadgun killing as lascannon teams.

Ratlings on their own aren't worth it. Ratlings for the Synergy of Quadgun killing in a flyer heavy list is worth it.


Why is quadgun such a threat that it merits taking ratlings?

And I don't have the patience to do the math, but they aren't exactly very good at killing quadguns. 3+ armor and 4+ cover is pretty tough for AP- weapons.

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HawaiiMatt wrote:
You know what they are good at?
Killing a Quad gun.
Let's assume you're building a lot of with a lot of flyers and scoring units inside those flyers.
You want to be able to kill the quadgun (T7 3+ armor, 4+ cover) turn 1. Turn 2 is too late.

Given that objective, Ratlings are good at getting that job done.
Point for point, they are twice as good at quadgun killing as lascannon teams.

Ratlings on their own aren't worth it. Ratlings for the Synergy of Quadgun killing in a flyer heavy list is worth it.


You know what's better? Lascannons. They can score, or transport! Or you could totally ignore the quad-cannon since they're pretty pathetic at killing IG fliers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/02 20:38:32



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