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I know this would change the game a lot but how does poison effect skeletons. I might consider zombies to be effected as they're recently dead humans so maybe somehow it does something but ethereals, skeletons (tomb kings or vampire counts) and constructs wouldn't be effected by it too much. In fact in most cases most of the TK army wouldn't be effected in the slightest by poison.

Now i know about the 40k explanation being that they sometimes use acid or similar but then in fantasy to my knowledge there are some units that are actually invulnerable or at least harder to hurt with certain attacks such as poisoned attacks, killing blow and flaming attacks. I suppose making an entire army immune to poison as well as being unbreakable and able to raise beyond starting size and back from the dead would be just too much. It's just it doesn't totally make sense to me. If some units are completely immune to poison then how would a skeleton not be?

What are your guys' thoughts?

I think the acid angle is the best way to explain it away. These kinds of incongruities show up all the time imho.

I have a hard time with demonic/undead instability. More ranks/charging/warbanner ect, equals more casualties?

Yeah i know but if that's the case why are some units totally immune to poison? I mean i'd figure if somebody put a ridiculous amount of venom in it that it'd murder even an ogre butcher or something in comparison to a skeleton which can never be poisoned. Also acid will effect almost anything unless it's hide is super thick or similar. It's just really odd to me.

I think ogre butchers can eat anything. To include poison :O)

It would make sense that skells would be immune to poison.

A sword isn't going to do anything whatsoever under any conditions to like 1/2 the creatures in WHFB. A zombie could be filled with 23898923 arrows and not notice it.

1000 skeletons will never hurt a dinosaur in the slightest under any situation.

So you either shut down the game and make it based on realism, or you just don't think about it hard.

Well it's a game about magic and i'm fine with that. I just want things to make sense on a smaller scale or something. I dunno. I'm not saying arrows shouldn't do something to zombies. In fact i'm kind of curious why the archers in fantasy don't have the ability to light their arrows on fire to instantly go through regeneration or similar but that's a topic for another time.

If i remember they did say enough force could break control over an undead or similar (like a sword strike). I mean if something falls to pieces like a skeleton they still have to be re-animated somewhat which is what 'invocation of nehek' does. I dunno i just find it odd an ogre leader is immune to poison when a skeleton isn't. It's not like skeletons couldn't get a negative rule to balance some of this out some more. I don't know but i'm up for suggestions. I mean it could just be a random rule like how goblins fear elves. I mean goblins fearing elves which was i think due to 'smell' is an even worse excuse. Maybe some fluff about that would make sense. I dunno i guess it's for comedy but i dunno how well that works in gameplay as far as certain balance goes. Not like elves wouldn't just hold them down while they cried and screamed and tea-bagged the goblins to death.

Poisons could be sometype of Blessed Water or Oils used to disrupt the necromantic magic.

Indeed, Poison is simply an abstraction of what it really is. It will either be actual toxins, Holy Water, Blessed/Enchanted Ichor, etc depending on the situation.

To me, it sounds like you only want realism when it benefits you.

What?! I don't even play vampire counts or tomb kings so i don't understand why you'd say that. I play skaven.

I just find it odd that a butcher is immune to poison/holy water/acid when a skeleton isn't. I get that holy water would make more sense it's just that if something is immune to poison they should be immune to all the similar possible effects too like acid in the face or holy water.

That said i think holy water is a good explanation for undead. Then again how would that work with skaven? Possibly they bless it with the horned rat or steal holy water or something?

I suppose this is a question just to rant. I mean a spider forest giving poisoned attacks could be represented as whatever but the effects are the same.

I just find it a bit odd some units like say an ogre butcher is entirely immune to poison or any sort of equivalent while skeletons aren't. Acid in a butcher's face is still gonna hurt. I dunno i guess it could work if skeletons are doused with holy water. I'm actually kind of wondering why we don't have a holy water cannon if it's so effective then. Just spray holy water everywhere or dump it on the ground to prevent them coming close. Most stuff in the VC army is melee based anyway.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
If i remember they did say enough force could break control over an undead or similar (like a sword strike). I mean if something falls to pieces like a skeleton they still have to be re-animated somewhat which is what 'invocation of nehek' does.

The VC Army Book says that magical energy still has to move through a reanimated skeleton; making it move, essentially performing as muscle and that a well-placed arrow or strike can sever the 'flow' or whatever.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
What?! I don't even play vampire counts or tomb kings so i don't understand why you'd say that. I play skaven.

I just find it odd that a butcher is immune to poison/holy water/acid when a skeleton isn't. I get that holy water would make more sense it's just that if something is immune to poison they should be immune to all the similar possible effects too like acid in the face or holy water.

That said i think holy water is a good explanation for undead. Then again how would that work with skaven? Possibly they bless it with the horned rat or steal holy water or something?

I suppose this is a question just to rant. I mean a spider forest giving poisoned attacks could be represented as whatever but the effects are the same.

I just find it a bit odd some units like say an ogre butcher is entirely immune to poison or any sort of equivalent while skeletons aren't. Acid in a butcher's face is still gonna hurt. I dunno i guess it could work if skeletons are doused with holy water. I'm actually kind of wondering why we don't have a holy water cannon if it's so effective then. Just spray holy water everywhere or dump it on the ground to prevent them coming close. Most stuff in the VC army is melee based anyway.

Here is why.


Butchers eat all sorts of disgusting things. Hence toxins will have no effect.

Holy water? Please, he's an Ogre. He ain't scared of a little bath.

Acid? Again, he's a freakin Ogre. The acid won't do much beyond make his skin itch.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
What?! I don't even play vampire counts or tomb kings so i don't understand why you'd say that. I play skaven.

I just find it odd that a butcher is immune to poison/holy water/acid when a skeleton isn't. I get that holy water would make more sense it's just that if something is immune to poison they should be immune to all the similar possible effects too like acid in the face or holy water.

That said i think holy water is a good explanation for undead. Then again how would that work with skaven? Possibly they bless it with the horned rat or steal holy water or something?

I suppose this is a question just to rant. I mean a spider forest giving poisoned attacks could be represented as whatever but the effects are the same.

I just find it a bit odd some units like say an ogre butcher is entirely immune to poison or any sort of equivalent while skeletons aren't. Acid in a butcher's face is still gonna hurt. I dunno i guess it could work if skeletons are doused with holy water. I'm actually kind of wondering why we don't have a holy water cannon if it's so effective then. Just spray holy water everywhere or dump it on the ground to prevent them coming close. Most stuff in the VC army is melee based anyway.

Holy water? Please, he's an Ogre. He ain't scared of a little bath.

Are they not afraid of baths? At least they'd be more pleasant to smell. May as well add some perfume to the holy water.

They are ambivilent towards bathing. Its not something they would do of their own accord but getting splashed with water will, at best, get a slight chuckle from the effected ogre before he eats you.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They are ambivilent towards bathing. Its not something they would do of their own accord but getting splashed with water will, at best, get a slight chuckle from the effected ogre before he eats you.

Yeah well good luck because all my guys ate a whole lot of mexican food so he's going to have diarhea for several days straight.

Even if he's an ogre he will succumb to that.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
What?! I don't even play vampire counts or tomb kings so i don't understand why you'd say that. I play skaven.

The guy is on the net, so he doesn't need to be polite. Perhaps his gaming group has also coloured his outlook. Just ignore him.

I just find it odd that a butcher is immune to poison/holy water/acid when a skeleton isn't.

Why would a butcher not be immune to holy water? Nothing odd about that. It never hurt me either. The same goes for everything else: Some animals can easily survive high doses of radiation, for example. Perhaps his sweat contains a substance that dilutes and counters acid...in the end, it's his shtick.

That said i think holy water is a good explanation for undead. Then again how would that work with skaven? Possibly they bless it with the horned rat or steal holy water or something?

They extract the baculum of dead Seers and make a fine powder out of it. If they cannot get their hands on a baculum, a holy praeputium will do.

Yeah i've pretty much retracted my points by this time. I guess it makes sense. I dunno. Some of it was just odd to me. Maybe there are other situations where it'd make more sense though.

I think poison is a fairly loose term used to describe a chemical or whatever thatis hazardous in some way to the users enemy. If skaven, its rat poison, if dwarf, it's non alcoholic lager, if it's a geek, then it's bath water.



Jokey comments, though I'm serious in the explanation - poison doesn't have to just mean something that only affects something else with blood cells.

Now if you really wanted that level of realism, you could make all skeletons take a wound every time they move, attack and retreat, due to lack of cartiledge wearing down their joints Skeli - death - by - arthritis

If you want realism, just make it that the skeleton THINKS it is being poisoned. The residual lifeforce hanging around that is animating it crumbles.

I mean, how does Unstable work? The enemy has the high ground and is carrying a pretty banner so 5 skeletons disintegrate? Huh?

Sounds to me like the OP is more confused by the Ogre Butcher getting immunity to poison than about poison affecting skeletons.
I really think that is more a case of the army developer thinking it would be "cool" than anything else. The poison rule really doesn't make sense since in the real world poisons are usually pretty specific about what they do or what species they affect, the immunity to poison for the butcher doesn't really make sense either. It's a flavor rule methinks.
BTW I have always thought that undead models should be immune to poison as a flavor rule . . . but they obviously are not.

Well its because Ogre butchers spend their lives eating tons of really nasty things that would kill even a normal ogre outright. So a little piddly bit of Snake venom isn't going to phase them.

Those are fluff reasons. It has the rule for balance reasons (and a bit of fluff). Skeletons, which are the definition of fodder, do not have it for balance reasons. If you want to add a point to their cost, you can have it. But I doubt it would be worth it.

Osiris venom works on everything. It is that awsome a curse.

Basically it's bad game design to have lots of units with explicit exceptions to general kinds of attacks. It will lead to just more sub-rules and exceptions, as you have to remember what's immune and what isn't to each different kind of special attack.

More than, that, though, you end up with even more of a paper, rock scissors kind of set up. A player turns up with a bunch of poison arrow units and he's hoping for a good game, and then that isn't going to happen because the other has a Vampire Counts list and so all those poison attacks are now useless.

Having an individual creature like a Butcher immune to poison isn't so bad because, you know, it's just one guy. You can poison the rest of the army and just ignore that guy, so it doesn't produce the same kind of list match up imbalance.


To justify the idea that poison works against most everything, you can make up whatever fluff you want. Say this battle they used holy water or acid or whatever, or say it isn't poison at all but represents the skill of putting the shot into a vulnerable location. Whatever. But the point is that it's being ruled for the sake of decent game design, with whatever fluff you want coming in second.

Bastion of Mediocrity and Sebster have the right of it: flamingkillamajig isn't saying "why aren't skeletons immune to poison?", but rather, "why are Butchers immune when skeletons are not?".

Butchers are tough, you say? They eat all sorts of awful things. Skeletons are animate bones. The friggin' end.

But yeah, it's just a matter of giving a whole army a rather specific ability, which would mess things up considerably, versus giving the ability to one guy.

There is a poison out there that decays bones so yah.

The butcher drinks the bone acid too, and chases it with dwarf blood :O)

...Huh, I was about to say the Ogre Butcher isn't quite the end all be all of high con characters, but the latest book pretty much got rid of all the risks of gut magic.

In the last book, throwing a handful of bones in ones mouth did a decent amount of damage to the butcher as they stabbed and sliced the insides of his mouth. Same went for troll guts; that stuff generally ravaged their insides. The cost of a really useful spell.

Not sure if I like to new intestinally invincible butchers. Apparently now the only thing that hurts to ingest for ogres is molten lava, and even then some survive that ordeal.

The reason our spells hurt us was because all our Casters were Lore Masters.

I'd gladly go back to taking str3 hits/4+ to take a wound if they gave us that back.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The reason our spells hurt us was because all our Casters were Lore Masters.

I'd gladly go back to taking str3 hits/4+ to take a wound if they gave us that back.

Perhaps all those foul ingredients made their way to the butcher's heads in the end. A little dumber (well more dumb than standard ogre), a little tougher.