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Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

So i thought I'd update Malekith's rules for 8th edition, taking into account the new updated fluff in the Malekith-Shadow King-Caledor arc, etc.

Malekith, the Witch King

625 points

Type: Infantry (unique character)

M5 WS8 BS6 S6 T5 W4 I8 A5 Ld10

Magic: Malekith is a Level 4 wizard. He may use spells from either the Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Death. Choose which Lore to use at the start of each game, and Malekith gains the Loremaster special rule for that Lore.

Equipment:

Destroyer: Magic Weapon. Ignores armor saves. Roll a dice immediately for every hit Malekith inflicts on an enemy model in close combat. On a 4+, one magic item belonging to the enemy model is removed from play. Malekith's owning player may choose. Only 1 magic item per enemy model may be destroyed per phase. If the enemy model also has one or more magic levels, Malekith's owning player may instead choose to remove a magic level rather than a magic item. Only 1 magic level per enemy model may be destroyed per phase.

Armor of Midnight: Magic armor. Provides a 3+ armor save. Also provides a 3+ ward save which is increased to 2+ against Magic attacks. No more than 1 wound may be inflicted on Malekith per attack. This applies to Multiple Wounds, remove from play, killing blow etc.

Circlet of Iron: Arcane Item. Malekith gains +1 power and dispel dice in his magic phase and his opponent's magic phase, respectively. In addition, Malekith gains +1 to cast and dispel spells.

Shield of Khaine: Magic Shield. Malekith causes Terror. In addition, any enemy model attempting to strike Malekith in close combat must first pass a Ld test. If failed, that model cannot strike blows in that close combat phase.

Special Rules: Infinite Hatred, Immune to Psychology

Absolute Power: Malekith MUST be the army general. If playing with alliances/campaigns, Malekith must be the overall alliance/campaign general. All friendly Dark Elf units, except for harpies, within 18 inches of Malekith are immune to panic. Malekith's Inspiring Presence is 18 inches, increased to 24 if mounted on Seraphon.

Mounts:

Malekith may be mounted on:

Cold One: 25 points

The Black Chariot: This is a Cold One Chariot pulled by 4 Cold Ones instead of 2. It has a 2+ armor save and 5+ ward save.: 175 points

Seraphon: This is a Black Dragon. It has S7, W7 and A7 instead of S6, W6 and A6, and it's Scaly Skin save is increased to 2+. 375 points

Options:

Malekith may replace Destroyer with Avanuir for 50 points. Do this if you want to field Malekith as he was during the Sundering. In that case he MUST be mounted on Seraphon.

Avanuir: Magic Weapon. Gives +2 to Strength and inflicts Flaming attacks. Also has the Multiple Wounds (2) special rule.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/09 04:19:34


Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

Should be T3 W3. He may be badass, but he's still an elf.
It's tough to say if he's balanced or not. He's a monster in close combat and a incredible wizard, but he's also 625 points.

Given his cost, he's only usable in really big games and costs as much as a death star.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in gb
Nimble Pistolier





Belfast

i see no problem with T4, as even though he is an elf, he is literally welded into his armour, he is supposed to be nigh unkillable and shrugging off almost anything.
only comment is w.r.t the iron circlet, imo it should be one PD&+1 to cast, not one of each.

The Men of Ostermark 6K

http://japehlio.blogspot.com/

Custom Insignia? Theming an army? I take sculpting commissions. PM me for more information. 
   
Made in ie
Stealthy Grot Snipa




So you've given a guy a -2 ward save against attacks from the lore of fire? The whole idea just seems pointless to me...even the upgrade is stupid, for free he gets a far superior weapon with the only sidenote being he SHOULD be on a dragon

Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/

Chaos Dwarfs 8/5/1 
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator






Perhaps force Malekith to ride Seraphon if he is using the Sundering incarnation of the character.

I like this personally. Sure, he is a badass, but he has a huge points cost and can't be used in many battles less than 4000pts if you take the dragon!

Chaos Space Marines - Iron Warriors & Night Lords 7900pts

 
   
Made in gb
Ghastly Grave Guard



Uk

I don't see what reason you would have to ever use him. He's quite well costed but there's just no point to him except fluff, he's as expensive as most deathstar units but way less powerful. And the thing is if your using him as a deathstar (which you should be at those points!) your going to want him in CC the while time, so his magic is relatively useless, your not going to be using it much...
   
Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

We're running a Sundering/Finuval Plains series of campaigns, and we felt that he was not good enough in his current incarnation

Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Hey, whatever happened to the Hand of Khaine? That was such an iconic item.

But anyway:

Malekith currently has S5 and T4 to represent his more-than-even-other-elves level of bad-assery, so I think that A4 and W4 is going too far. At some point, you've got to draw the line. But let's assume you keep him as is.
So let's say his base cost is as a normal Dark Elf Lord, +20pts for +1S and +20pts for +1T, +25 for +1A, and +30 for +1W (a bargain). What's that put us at?

Now let's make him a Wizard. Standard procedure is 50pts for lvl1 and 35pts for each one after that, so that's 155pts. We'll ignore his Loremastery-awesomeness for now.

Destroyer: +1S = 20pts. No armour = 50pts. Break items on a 4+ = 25pts. Again, we'll be generous and say 95pts.

Armour of Midnight gives him 4 abilities: MR3, 3+ Ward, 2+ vs. Flaming, and no-more-than-one-wound/attack.
That would cost something like 45+60+5+30pts, if each ability was bound up in one item, let alone one item having all of them.
Honestly, I think it'd be better off as something like 2+ armour, 5+ Ward (2+ versus Flaming), and the last bit.
But assuming you keep it as-is, we'll chalk it up as 140pts.

The Circlet of Iron: +1 Power Die, +1 Dispel Die, +1 to cast and dispel: let's say 25+25+25+25; a very generous pricing, considering the Book cost 70pts for +1 to cast and dispel, and this has two extra abilities stuffed into one item.
I'd say something like : +2 Power Dice, done.
But again, we'll assume it stays as it is first posted, at 100pts.

Shield of Khaine: I think your MR should go here, if anywhere. But with just Terror? Let's say 20pts.

Let's ignore Infinite Hatred and Immune to Psychology, and price his 18/24" Immune to Panic/Inspiring Presence at 50pts. I think that's fair, no?

So that's...95+155+140+100+20+50 = 570pts more than a standard character. And that is being Extremely generous.
He should be awesome. I'd even go as far as saying that he should also be an efficient use of points (which most Special Characters are not). But not more so than other characters.

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Warpsolution wrote:
Armour of Midnight gives him 4 abilities: MR3, 3+ Ward, 2+ vs. Flaming, and no-more-than-one-wound/attack.
That would cost something like 45+60+5+30pts, if each ability was bound up in one item, let alone one item having all of them.
Honestly, I think it'd be better off as something like 2+ armour, 5+ Ward (2+ versus Flaming), and the last bit.
But assuming you keep it as-is, we'll chalk it up as 140pts.


The MR is really only MR1, because the most you can do to a 3+ ward save is make it a 2+ (I guess it could go to 1+ but a 1 always fails so...). But other than that nitpick (which is really more of a nitpick with the OP's rules) I agree with your assessment of various parts of the rules and your conclusion on how much all that stuff adds up to.

In general, though, I'd say the OP's design suffers from too many rules. The Armour of Midnight has 4 different special effects (which are largely redundant against each other). His magic weapon has 3 (with the +1 strength being something that could just get moved up into his character profile). This kind of thing produces a feeling that there's always another special rule to learn when fighting against the guy, it makes people think of cheese even when they may not be that powerful overall. A character doesn't need that many special rules to be powerful and unique on the field, and it means both players can focus on the strategy of playing with and against him, rather than just trying to remember all the stuff he can do.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I agree with both points; I just priced the MR at 3 because that's what it's listed at.
And yes, too many rules is a big problem here (I just figured I'd start at the most basic level and work up from there). I mean, the shield gives him Terror, and that's it, but his armour gives him four abilities. That just doesn't add up.

 
   
Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

Updated. And re the armor, the current version also does 3 things: heavy armour, 2+ ward, immunity to multiple wounds etc

Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't think anything has a better save vs. magic attacks. I don't know if you mean spells, but it has the side effects of zombie using a rusty shovel is more effective than the same zombie using the Destroyer of Worlds sword. It also has a side side effect of making Daemons effectively useless against him. There's no explicit 2+ wards in the game that I know, but I don't have every book.

You can make people in another army choose him as a general. They didn't take the book and it's rules apply to it and anyone he fights. In fact, they can have their won Malekith if you have two DE armies and then this rule doesn't work at all.

This guy is way better than the new Archaon, btw.

   
Made in hk
Alluring Mounted Daemonette





Melbourne

Well Malekith was supposed to be basically invulnerable inside his armour. The process described in Caledor made it clear that every protective spell, rune, etc that he, Hotek and Morathi knew were wrapped around him into the armor. Theres only 1 time as far as i know that he got wounded through his armor, and that was to the Phoenix guard's halberds.
Malekith currently DOES have a 2+ ward save, but it doesn't work against magic.
He has survived i believe 8000 years, and I wanted the rules to reflect that. Excepting the Slann of the 1st to 3rd spawning, and Morathi, he is the oldest living being in the old world atm.

Glory to the Twelfth! Glory to Angron!

‎"Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."

—Captain Khârn of the World Eaters Legion's 8th Assault Company, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dragon Ogres and Dragons are oldest.

Magic comes from Chaos. Chaos comes from the gods. The gods PERSONALLY gave Archaon all his stuff. Malekith is spiffy and all, Archaon is literally supposed to end the world.

Again, if it's a campaign, he can have whatever you feel should be in the campaign. But if you look at every single 8th book, that stuff doesn't exist. I'm absolutely sure when they release DoC those mega 650pt greater daemons will be way different too. And I'm guessing they'll remove Malekith. Because he either can't live up to the hype or he's unusable in games. Like, they aren't going to have a Khorne entry--a god who rules whole dimensions.

   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





@CalasTyphon216:

Point 1- take a look at the costs I have listed. 570pts+the cost of a standard Lord. And once again, that is a bargain price. Do you disagree? If not, his cost should reflect this at least.

Point 2- you made him better. After all this feedback, you made him Strength 6 and Toughness 5, dropped MR3, but since that's 2 higher than he could ever benefit from, that doesn't matter, and moreover you improved his Ward save by that same amount, but not just against spells, but against all magical attacks, which are the only ones that stand a chance of hurting him anyway. Oh, and then you gave his shield another rule.

...are you even listening to anyone?

Point 3- your last post is a justification of why Malekith should rock. Every time someone puts up a sentence like that, I can't help but get a little exasperated.
Here's the thing: Warhammer is a ridiculous, over-the-top sort of game, with lots of crazy boasts in the literature that cannot and never should be supported by the game system. Malekith is not alone in the "he's invincible, unbeatable, etc. etc. etc." department.
The Lizardman Special Character Gor-Rok is a great example. He's a Scar-Veteran with the following: he re-rolls failed To Hit rolls in the first round, counts as defending an obstacle, enemies must re-roll successful To Wound rolls, and he's Stubborn. That's it. And in his description, it says that he has never taken a step backwards in battle, and has survived being run over by a chariot and having a lance run through his chest. He doesn't have a 4+ Ward save, a 1+ re-rollable armour save, +1T and Unbreakable Ld10, or even one or two of those abilities.
Do you see what I'm trying to say?

Warhammer uses the D6, and there's only so much variation in that humble die.

So yes, Malekith is awesomely-awesome. But the game can't actually reflect that because it's a game, that's supposed to be balanced and fun, and actually have things occur within it.

Here's how I'd do Malekith:

M5 WS8 BS6 S5 T4 W3 I8 A4 Ld10

Magic: Malekith is a Level 4 wizard. He may use spells from either the Lore of Dark Magic or the Lore of Death.
- drop Loremaster. He's a super killy, Ld10 General. Being a lvl4 on top of that is good enough.

Equipment:

Destroyer: Magic Weapon. Roll a die immediately for every hit Malekith inflicts on an enemy model in close combat. On a 4+, one magic item the enemy model is carrying is destroyed, or the enemy model loses one Wizard level. Malekith's owning player may choose whether to destroy an item or a Wizard level, and which item is destroyed. Only 1 magic item or level may be destroyed per phase.
Just drop the No Armour Save thing. He's S5, can destroy your magic armour or talisman. That's plenty.

Armor of Midnight: Magic armor. Provides a 3+ armor save. Also provides a 2+ ward save (this decreases to a 4+ against Magical Attacks). No more than 1 wound may be inflicted on Malekith per attack. This applies to Multiple Wounds, remove from play, killing blow etc.
Now he "only" has a 4+ versus Magical Attacks...until he destroys them with his magic sword.
I know it looks like a huge hit to his durability, but consider it from a mechanical perspective: if this armour cost 100pts, who would not take it?


Circlet of Iron: Arcane Item. Malekith gains +1 power and dispel dice in his magic phase and his opponent's magic phase, respectively.
The +1 isn't that big a deal either way, but it clutters up his entry. Simplicity goes a long way towards good design.

Shield of Khaine: Magic Shield. Malekith causes Terror.
Just got rid of the other ability. Simplicity.

Special Rules: Infinite Hatred, Immune to Psychology

Absolute Power: Malekith must be the army general. If playing with alliances/campaigns, Malekith must be the overall alliance/campaign general. All friendly Dark Elf units, except for harpies, within 18 inches of Malekith are immune to panic. Malekith's Inspiring Presence is 18 inches, increased to 24 if mounted on Seraphon.

Mounts:

Cold One: 25 points

The Black Chariot: This is a Cold One Chariot pulled by 4 Cold Ones instead of 2. It has a 2+ armor save and 5+ ward save.: 175 points

Seraphon: This is a Black Dragon. It has S7, W7 and A7 instead of S6, W6 and A6, and it's Scaly Skin save is increased to 2+. 375 points

Options:

If mounted on Seraphon, Malekith may replace Destroyer with Avanuir as he did during the Sundering. +50pts

Avanuir: Magic Weapon. +2 to Strength, Flaming Attacks, and Multiple Wounds (2).

How's that look?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/10 20:55:31


 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Warpsolution wrote:
How's that look?


I don't know about CalasTyphon216, but I can read that and get my head around it. Each item has a clear, direct purpose that I can process and have a chance of remembering in play. And in simplifying the rules is actually brings the rules for Destroyer into play - now it becomes his primary way of getting through the magical and armour protections of other players, and in keeping himself safe (destroying their gear).

I mean, don't get me wrong, this is still an outrageously powerful character who'd only work in big tournament games where the other side has a chance to prepare for him, but at least now I feel like there's some purpose and focus to his rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/11 09:08:41


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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