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A fairly gimpy ork army at 1500 for an annihalation game-
Biker Warboss 140

6x30 Slugga Boy mobs with Power claw nobs (who needs rokkits when you'll be running all day anyway?)
215 each, 1290 total.
With your remaining 70 points you could sprinkle in something like a kannon battery for some extra antitank (though you probably won't need it).
At 1500, I can think of a lot of armies that are going to struggle to deal with that kind of list.

At 1500, I can think of a lot of armies that are going to struggle to deal with that kind of list.

Especially as if the Orks kill 90% of the enemy army, and lose 90% of their own army in the process, they get a 20-0 victory.

It seems you remain scoring down to the last man too, and no kill points are awarded until wipe out or break. Good luck scoring points off of that list.
And the thing about that list is that it is BORING.
Whatever anyone says about the game being all about troops, that's not the whole story. Elites, HQ, Fast Attack and Heavy Support spice things up and make them interesting. I would much prefer a ruleset that made them all useable rather than encouraging Troops spam.
And I'm someone who builds his armies around troops choices btw.

Moz wrote:5th edition:

4+ Cover
Fortune
Holofield
Falcon
???
Profit

Yep. They won't be as godly as they are now, but my Falcons will still see good use in 5th ed. Eldar isn't nearly as badly hurt by the skimmer changes as Tau is.

Da Boss wrote:6x30 Slugga Boy mobs with Power claw nobs

First, they got to make 180 Orks!

Da Boss wrote:And the thing about that list is that it is BORING.

Welcome to Jervishammer 40,000. Am I the only one getting the impression that Jervis' idea of a good tactical game of 40k is 2 identical 10-man tactical squads running around shooting each other with bolters all day?

When GW pulls everything but Tac squads armed with Bolters from the game, I'll agree with you.

I've seen people field maximum amounts of cheap troops before (IG, Grots, Boyz, Gaunts).

They rarely have fun moving all those models.
They can't get them all into hand to hand.
They die horribly to AOEs
They take forever and a day to build and paint
They usually give up on them pretty quickly.

Will people do it ? Yes.

Is it something I will lose sleep over ? No.

Will Orks specifically be btter in 5th Edition ? I don't know, but I sure hope so. They haven't been top tier, anywhere around here, in a long time.

JohnHwangDD wrote:When GW pulls everything but Tac squads armed with Bolters from the game, I'll agree with you.

JohnHwang, you were not put on this earth to agree with me.

Other interesting things... Skimmers ending their turn in difficult terrain must make a dangerous terrain check. No more "hovering over".

Deepstriking vehicles count as having moved 12"... Deepstriking landspeeders become an option again.

Asmodai wrote:

Moz wrote:5th edition:

4+ Cover
Fortune
Holofield
Falcon
???
Profit

Yep. They won't be as godly as they are now, but my Falcons will still see good use in 5th ed. Eldar isn't nearly as badly hurt by the skimmer changes as Tau is.

Au contraire, Tau vehicles are improved by the new rules.

Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

The Piranha is probably a bit worse off.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Au contraire, Tau vehicles are improved by the new rules.

Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

The Piranha is probably a bit worse off.

Actually I think they've gotten worse to be honest. Sensor spines and the disruptor pod haven't gotten better, but are more useful because the skimmer moving fast rule is now worse than getting a hull down result rather than the other way around. Before these bits of wargear weren't needed because you could just get their bonuses by moving over 6". Now you're better off hiding behind cover so you get a better cover save and so you can fire your secondary hammerhead weapons (I'm not sure what you mean about Tau vehicles not having more than two weapons. Hammerheads certainly have two or more S5+ weapons and will only be able to fire one of them moving fast thanks to the S4 defensive weapon cut off). So they've gone from mobile firepower to a pillbox like all other tanks are now.

Not to mention your submunitions scatter now. That hurts since it was pretty simple to make it BS5.

Ubik Lives wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Au contraire, Tau vehicles are improved by the new rules.

Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

The Piranha is probably a bit worse off.

Actually I think they've gotten worse to be honest. Sensor spines and the disruptor pod haven't gotten better, but are more useful because the skimmer moving fast rule is now worse than getting a hull down result rather than the other way around. Before these bits of wargear weren't needed because you could just get their bonuses by moving over 6". Now you're better off hiding behind cover so you get a better cover save and so you can fire your secondary hammerhead weapons (I'm not sure what you mean about Tau vehicles not having more than two weapons. Hammerheads certainly have two or more S5+ weapons and will only be able to fire one of them moving fast thanks to the S4 defensive weapon cut off). So they've gone from mobile firepower to a pillbox like all other tanks are now.

Not to mention your submunitions scatter now. That hurts since it was pretty simple to make it BS5.

Those burst cannons scare my guardians when they're following up a rail cannon blast and they're coming in at BS5 w/ no conceal save from markerlights. It's literally the only time that they actually been killed to a man from shooting. I can imagine the wtf look on my face when it happened.

I have been reading and taking in everyone's thoughts on 5th Edition. I think that they have radically improved the Necrons.

So, I think everyone will start to see 3 Monolith Necron armies. They actually improved one of the most unkillable, lowest costed tanks in the game. You can't even kill it now on glances? Did every necron player dance a jig when they saw that? My pie plate hits everything it touches now? You just have to pump warriors into bigger units, to accept the charges of those big foot-slogging armies. Then teleport with your Lord, WBB you're guys back up, and bring cheer and happiness to your opponent by delivering pie for everyone. Well, pie plates anyway.

Man, and monoliths don't even have to be stationary pillboxes. If anyone can PM me with practice games with or against Necrons, I would enjoy knowing how they play with these rules.

Kilkrazy wrote:Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

Or you can sit in 4+ cover, use your Landing Gear to land, and shoot your Railgun and other gusn all game.

And why are people sitting Falcons in cover? Fire Prisms in cover people! Holo-Fields + 4+ cover!!!

Edit: HBMC using my account... :-)

milesteg wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

Or you can sit in 4+ cover, use your Landing Gear to land, and shoot your Railgun and other gusn all game.

And why are people sitting Falcons in cover? Fire Prisms in cover people! Holo-Fields + 4+ cover!!!

Edit: HBMC using my account... :-)

Actually the landing gear is no longer a need wargear item. Skimmers don't appear to allow you to shoot under them anymore (goodbye Fish of Fury. I never used you, but you meant Tau could win at a competitive level so I'll miss you all the same), and you don't die on immobilised results for moving under 6" so being landed is fairly moot.

The point is we don't want to sit back behind cover. We want to run forward and dakk people in the face with our short ranged burst cannons rather than hope they'll wander into range. We buy our tanks so we get some mobile firepower rather a Broadside with an armour value.

I do hope they don't let you Fortune vehicles. Otherwise a Hellhound is going to be as good at killing Eldar Vehicles behind cover as a lascannon.

>>Hammerheads certainly have two or more S5+ weapons

I was thinking of using SMS rather than twin Burst. Extra range and no LOS requirement.

Salacious Greed wrote:I have been reading and taking in everyone's thoughts on 5th Edition. I think that they have radically improved the Necrons.

So, I think everyone will start to see 3 Monolith Necron armies. They actually improved one of the most unkillable, lowest costed tanks in the game. You can't even kill it now on glances? Did every necron player dance a jig when they saw that? My pie plate hits everything it touches now? You just have to pump warriors into bigger units, to accept the charges of those big foot-slogging armies. Then teleport with your Lord, WBB you're guys back up, and bring cheer and happiness to your opponent by delivering pie for everyone. Well, pie plates anyway.

Man, and monoliths don't even have to be stationary pillboxes. If anyone can PM me with practice games with or against Necrons, I would enjoy knowing how they play with these rules.

True, but only for the time-being. The Necron codex is a 3rd edition, and the whole game is being re-balanced. I think necrons will balance logically with the 5th edition core ruleset. they might even get a cover save for 'living metal'. Whatever. Generally speaking, I like the direction the game is taking. I think it'll work out very well for the games and crons once Necrons get their 5th edition dex.

Da Boss wrote:A fairly gimpy ork army at 1500 for an annihalation game-
Biker Warboss 140

6x30 Slugga Boy mobs with Power claw nobs (who needs rokkits when you'll be running all day anyway?)
215 each, 1290 total.
With your remaining 70 points you could sprinkle in something like a kannon battery for some extra antitank (though you probably won't need it).
At 1500, I can think of a lot of armies that are going to struggle to deal with that kind of list.

Nah. It's definitely a competitive build, but it does down fast to templates and armaments of basic infantry. I'd say it's metagame changer (this is a good thing). Once the metagame changes away from anti-MEq to anti-horde, it'll be manageable--as well as fun for both players IMHO.

A classic BA build with all assaulters, a large DC, and Lord Dante HQ will give it a good game. 4 assault squads, lord dante, and a 10 man DC in 1500 is possible and looks like an excellent match/fun game for it, as just one example.

I'm sorry, but a Boss on Bike, and 180 Sluga Boyz w/ PK Nobz does not make an uber list.

Oh sure, it's great in Total Annihilation, but then you roll up the Dawn of War deployment setup, or the table quarter deployment setup, and you're essentially hosed.

With literally Zero shooting and no cover saves, and that many models you're looking at 3 Whirlwinds in plain line of Sight having a field day. 3 Railheads, would work wonders, just about everything would.

Even Eldar, using things like Dire avengers on foot could have a field day. That Fleet move where you can charge is once per game for the Boyz, and using multiple units of Avengers (in Serpents even) with Blade Storm, Guide and Doom, could eliminate squads. A Fire Prism could do wonders against them, while staying out of being charged.

Yes, in the straight up kill points, against a number of armies without the tools to take it down (templates), that list is good.

And then it will meet foils, even Mech Tau in their new 5th ed lists would go buck wild on those Boyz. And I'd love to see someone move that many models, twice per turn, while maintaining max coherency to avoid template death, actually finish a game in 2 to 2.5 hours.

And even in the situations where everything works great and the front mobs consistently run 5 or 6 inches and then get a high fleet roll to actually GET that 2nd turn charge, there are counters, and mobile armies can get away.

Yes, your armies that are made up of a few really hard to kill units, that almost always exist outside of "Troops" with a few token "high damage, throw away" squads are going to fail in 5th Ed. Maybe the Designers saw players making lists based on these setups and decided that wasn't how they wanted 40k to be played?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Asmodai wrote:

Moz wrote:5th edition:

4+ Cover
Fortune
Holofield
Falcon
???
Profit

Yep. They won't be as godly as they are now, but my Falcons will still see good use in 5th ed. Eldar isn't nearly as badly hurt by the skimmer changes as Tau is.

Au contraire, Tau vehicles are improved by the new rules.

Sensor spines let you go in cover without penalty.
Disruptor pod gives you a 5+ cover save in the open, at longer ranges.
Target lock lets you move and shoot as a Fast vehicle. (There aren't any Tau vehicles with more than 2 weapons anyway.)

The Piranha is probably a bit worse off.

Great, so now my 180 point hammerheads and 120 point devilfishes just became 10 points more expensive each. Where the hell am I supposed to find 50 points. Its pretty tight in there as it is. Not to mention I've gone from 12" of movement and still shoot all my guns to only 6" of movement. If you think our tanks don't need to shoot all its guns every turn, clearly you don't play Tau. I'll admit we are not as bad off as other armies, but this is still a serious blow to a army list design that HAS to get it done in the shooting phase. We can't reliably use the assault phase to do our killing like a lot of other armies.

Voodoo: Alright, I can see your point to an extent- it's definitly not the most competitive list. But I think it'll be harder to kill all those orks than you're making it out to be.

I think that footslogging boys would be the cream of the leaked rule set. I'm not positive, of course, and things will change with time. But having multiple large, sort of durable units that are good in assault while being capable of some shooting will be useful in this edition. When scrums develops around objectives, orks will have every advantage.

Now, Orks will simply become the new MEQ, meaning that every army will simply need to be able to deal with 120+ boyz.

Polonius wrote:Now, Orks will simply become the new MEQ, meaning that every army will simply need to be able to deal with 120+ boyz.

I think if an army can deal with 120+ boyz with a variety of armour support they can handle pretty much anything.

Edit: which of course I suppose is exactly what you just said .

Polonius wrote:I think that footslogging boys would be the cream of the leaked rule set. I'm not positive, of course, and things will change with time. But having multiple large, sort of durable units that are good in assault while being capable of some shooting will be useful in this edition. When scrums develops around objectives, orks will have every advantage.

Now, Orks will simply become the new MEQ, meaning that every army will simply need to be able to deal with 120+ boyz.

Well the question is how do you go forward with the new run rules. Do you go Shootas, and run turn 1, and just shoot a lot in turn 2 forward? Or do you go mass sluggas (yay my old 3rd Ed Codex armies are back) and run every turn till you can Waaagh?

I think running until the waaagh will work pretty well.

What's interesting is that many of the sub par units such as burna boys and meganobs have been given a boost.

I think I'm going to stop thinking about this in abstract and go playtest a few games with what we have.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Polonius wrote:I think that footslogging boys would be the cream of the leaked rule set. I'm not positive, of course, and things will change with time. But having multiple large, sort of durable units that are good in assault while being capable of some shooting will be useful in this edition. When scrums develops around objectives, orks will have every advantage.

Now, Orks will simply become the new MEQ, meaning that every army will simply need to be able to deal with 120+ boyz.

Well the question is how do you go forward with the new run rules. Do you go Shootas, and run turn 1, and just shoot a lot in turn 2 forward? Or do you go mass sluggas (yay my old 3rd Ed Codex armies are back) and run every turn till you can Waaagh?

I can't imagine taking more than 2 mobs of shootas. Running gives you a good chance of a turn 2 assault, and virtually garantees turn 3. Shootas will be useful, however, for dealing with enemy hordes. Shootas are the best anti-slugga unit, after all. Since you can't shoot when charging into an assault, I'd say sluggas will be better on the whole than shootas.

Jayden63 wrote:

Great, so now my 180 point hammerheads and 120 point devilfishes just became 10 points more expensive each.

There are always going to be winners and losers. 10 points per vehicle isn't going to decide the game by itself.

Jayden63 wrote:
Where the hell am I supposed to find 50 points. Its pretty tight in there as it is.

You'll have to find 50 points by taking something else out of the list. Those vehicle upgrades will be pretty much compulsory because they are too good to pass up.

Jayden63 wrote:
Not to mention I've gone from 12" of movement and still shoot all my guns to only 6" of movement. If you think our tanks don't need to shoot all its guns every turn, clearly you don't play Tau. I'll admit we are not as bad off as other armies, but this is still a serious blow to a army list design that HAS to get it done in the shooting phase. We can't reliably use the assault phase to do our killing like a lot of other armies.

My guess is the benefits of being hit less because of cover or obscurement will outweigh the problem of being glanced all the time as an SMF and getting stunned so you can't shoot anything.

The worst that can happen is you move over 6 inches and lose the shooting from one burst cannon from your Hammerhead. That's three shots at a range of 18 inches. One FW squad will put out 12 shots to 30 inches, and if you move it into RF range it is going to rain death on a Ork unit.

Look at how much more important markerlights are with the revised cover rules. If you don't use Pathfinders or Sniper Drones now, I think they are definitely worht looking at.

So I haven't played the new rules and it's "theoryhams" but I really don't see these changes as being the end of all things.

I can't read through this whole thread, but I noticed in the PDF that Power Fists can now only get an additional attack if combined with another powerfist (or similar weapon such as thunderhammer). Powerfist + bolt pistol becomes a less powerful combination, and may cease being the default configuration for Space Marine Vet Sergeants.

If this has already been covered, I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:When GW pulls everything but Tac squads armed with Bolters from the game, I'll agree with you.

JohnHwang, you were not put on this earth to agree with me.

HA!

I hear you there!

I'm still trying to figure out who is the Genestealer Patriarch and who are the Tyranids that he's calling in.

Toss up right now between JohnHwang, Nurglitch, Toredor, Stelek and Ozymandias...