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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Or it could be all 6. And who said we were talking about firing multiple Riptides in the first place?

Fun trying to have a discussion when the goalposts keep moving, no?

This has gone way beyond my issues with the thing. I'd try 3+ armor first and see if all the problems went away. Yeah, it's still got 5 wounds, but it's taking almost double wounds from poison and now krak missiles work again. Alternatively, I'd try AP 3 on the ion accelerator so expensive infantry doesn't instantly die.

Martel732 wrote:
This has gone way beyond my issues with the thing. I'd try 3+ armor first and see if all the problems went away. Yeah, it's still got 5 wounds, but it's taking almost double wounds from poison and now krak missiles work again.

This, plus the formation, plus the invul stops at 4+.
Do that and I'm fine with it. With a 3+ save it can still pop the formation turn 1 and nearly earn it's points back against a lot of lists.

If the invuln only goes to 4++, I'd get rid of the activation roll. Which kinda defeats the idea of an experimental reactor. The 3++ shield is a lot less good when it has 3+ armor to start with, because you could pop the shield and your opponent comes back with wound spam on his turn instead of AP-based attacks.

Akiasura wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This has gone way beyond my issues with the thing. I'd try 3+ armor first and see if all the problems went away. Yeah, it's still got 5 wounds, but it's taking almost double wounds from poison and now krak missiles work again.

This, plus the formation, plus the invul stops at 4+.
Do that and I'm fine with it. With a 3+ save it can still pop the formation turn 1 and nearly earn it's points back against a lot of lists.

Martel732 wrote:
If the invuln only goes to 4++, I'd get rid of the activation roll. Which kinda defeats the idea of an experimental reactor. The 3++ shield is a lot less good when it has 3+ armor to start with, because you could pop the shield and your opponent comes back with wound spam on his turn instead of AP-based attacks.

Whoa, be careful, a gentle and methodical hand to re-balancing does not please the masses

 pumaman1 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
This has gone way beyond my issues with the thing. I'd try 3+ armor first and see if all the problems went away. Yeah, it's still got 5 wounds, but it's taking almost double wounds from poison and now krak missiles work again.

This, plus the formation, plus the invul stops at 4+.
Do that and I'm fine with it. With a 3+ save it can still pop the formation turn 1 and nearly earn it's points back against a lot of lists.

Martel732 wrote:
If the invuln only goes to 4++, I'd get rid of the activation roll. Which kinda defeats the idea of an experimental reactor. The 3++ shield is a lot less good when it has 3+ armor to start with, because you could pop the shield and your opponent comes back with wound spam on his turn instead of AP-based attacks.

Whoa, be careful, a gentle and methodical hand to re-balancing does not please the masses

Lol!

That's fair martel, good point. I suppose I want plasma weapons to work on it so the weaker armies have a hope and a prayer, but that's the game.
The only issue with reducing the save is it makes scat bikes stronger against it.

Yeah, scatbikes are always a balance problem. The issue is that being strong vs scatbikes makes you nearly invulnverable to everything else. It does have T6 working for it, and access to FNP still. Maybe the 3+ armor doesn't help enough lists. That's why it's called playtesting.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.

The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.

Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.

All those other Riptides also have a 1/6 chance to not fire if you're using a blast profile.

Which is...1 out of 6 of them a turn if you use six. So you boost multiple rather than focusing on just one to buff...

It is a bad argument, sorry.

Or it could be all 6. And who said we were talking about firing multiple Riptides in the first place?

They could all also never scatter and not get a Hot result all game. See what happens when you take math out of the equation? It sounds stupid.

Also you're taking multiple Riptides because most units work better in redundancy. Or do you believe in a bad looking army that has one of each unit?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Ushtarador wrote:

That's exactly my point. Why does it matter if one doesn't shoot when the others will? It is a bad argument and really grasping at straws to show any semblance of balance for the Riptide.

The feth? In your initial post you asked why people would want to increase the BS to 6, and we explained to you why it is generally a good use of your markerlights. This has absolutely nothing to do with the balance discussion, and nobody said it is necessary for riptides to be good, I don't know how you jump to this conclusion.

Except it isn't a good use. 1/6 chance while you have other ones to fire with and support with Marker Lights? Bad idea and you should feel bad for doing it.

All those other Riptides also have a 1/6 chance to not fire if you're using a blast profile.

Which is...1 out of 6 of them a turn if you use six. So you boost multiple rather than focusing on just one to buff...

It is a bad argument, sorry.

Or it could be all 6. And who said we were talking about firing multiple Riptides in the first place?

They could all also never scatter and not get a Hot result all game. See what happens when you take math out of the equation? It sounds stupid.

Also you're taking multiple Riptides because most units work better in redundancy. Or do you believe in a bad looking army that has one of each unit?

LMAO i was going to post that first part as well but you beat me to it.

Arguing that point is rather silly.

Riptides want to be tanky, so reduce the range of their weapons so that the best ranged weapon they have is 24-30, give your enemies a fething chance of catching you. Keep it as 2+ save but reduce the Invul to 4++. Reduce Wounds by 1 and boom lets playtest. Also a points hike because realistically its still under priced.

If its supposed to be a forward pushing line breaker as I argued earlier, then 24" on its weapons seems reasonable.
2+ fine but move it to a 5++ and reduce W by 1. Done.

Again I'll draw the analogy of a Rip and Carnifex. Dedicated line breaker units (sorry old Carni :( ).

The only thing that I am getting from this thread is the distinct impression that Tau players do not want ANY of the big whiny meanies out there to touch their precious Riptidde. How dare they suggest any nerfs to it, after all what is so wrong with the Riptide?

Personally I think it should be a 12/12/12 vehicle, but if it has to remain an MC then it needs to have its save nerfed to 3+, with a massive range reduction to its weapons to no more than 36" at the most and the loss of the Jump packs.
Why?
Well, A; it is a sodding huge walker, and so it should be treated like one but as GW wants to sell them....
We have B; a 2+ save is far too good for something that is essentially a Crisis suit but bigger, and it also makes the model far too tanky. Yes, it is a Linebreaker, but that is what the 5++ Invun with its 3++ Nova profile is for.
C; We have (roughly) established that the Riptide is a Linebreaker, intended to get in close and breach the foes lines. So why in feths name does it have artillery grade weapons and snipe-thee-from-two-and-a-half-game-boards-away weapons as commonplace mounts. Reducing its weapons to have ranges from 18" to 36"with most averaging out at 24" will force it to actually get in close and perform its designated role, instead of hanging back and acting as an ultra tough killy everything platform.
D; Jump packs. There is no way that the Riptide needs Jump Packs included within its base profile. I mean, look at it. The Riptide is already an MC. It is already far faster than most other things that it encounters and it is incredibly tough. Jumppacks should be an optional (say 60?) point upgrade. Why so high you ask? Well, they allow it to essentially ignore impassable terrain AND to make an extra move in the Assault phase. Do you want that flexibility? Well, you had better be willing to fork out or it then.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The only thing that I am getting from this thread is the distinct impression that Tau players do not want ANY of the big whiny meanies out there to touch their precious Riptidde. How dare they suggest any nerfs to it, after all what is so wrong with the Riptide?

Uh, I'm a Tau player. Right now they are either my most played or a close second since I love the suits. I probably wanted to nerf it the hardest.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Personally I think it should be a 12/12/12 vehicle, but if it has to remain an MC then it needs to have its save nerfed to 3+, with a massive range reduction to its weapons to no more than 36" at the most and the loss of the Jump packs.

I don't want it to be a tank because tanks are god awful and I own 3
Agree with the save
Agree with range reduction if we keep the formation. I don't mind it having an amazing turn of shooting on turns 3-4, but turn 1-2 is a massive advantage.
I like the Jump Packs. It's very Tau being mobile, just like being static is IG. I know IG is broken, but if they were fixed, I'd want this to separate the two.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Why?
Well, A; it is a sodding huge walker, and so it should be treated like one but as GW wants to sell them....
We have B; a 2+ save is far too good for something that is essentially a Crisis suit but bigger, and it also makes the model far too tanky. Yes, it is a Linebreaker, but that is what the 5++ Invun with its 3++ Nova profile is for.

Agree with the latter, that save makes it bonkers to deal with unless you are sporting grav.

 master of ordinance wrote:

C; We have (roughly) established that the Riptide is a Linebreaker, intended to get in close and breach the foes lines. So why in feths name does it have artillery grade weapons and snipe-thee-from-two-and-a-half-game-boards-away weapons as commonplace mounts. Reducing its weapons to have ranges from 18" to 36"with most averaging out at 24" will force it to actually get in close and perform its designated role, instead of hanging back and acting as an ultra tough killy everything platform.

Agree, I wouldn't mind if it had a rule where if it's stationary and uses the nova it can go to 36" from 24" for the large blast. Would reward positioning and I like options that aren't broken.
It's other weapon needs a buff. It's garbage.

Akiasura wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The only thing that I am getting from this thread is the distinct impression that Tau players do not want ANY of the big whiny meanies out there to touch their precious Riptidde. How dare they suggest any nerfs to it, after all what is so wrong with the Riptide?

Uh, I'm a Tau player. Right now they are either my most played or a close second since I love the suits. I probably wanted to nerf it the hardest.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Personally I think it should be a 12/12/12 vehicle, but if it has to remain an MC then it needs to have its save nerfed to 3+, with a massive range reduction to its weapons to no more than 36" at the most and the loss of the Jump packs.

I don't want it to be a tank because tanks are god awful and I own 3
Agree with the save
Agree with range reduction if we keep the formation. I don't mind it having an amazing turn of shooting on turns 3-4, but turn 1-2 is a massive advantage.
I like the Jump Packs. It's very Tau being mobile, just like being static is IG. I know IG is broken, but if they were fixed, I'd want this to separate the two.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Why?
Well, A; it is a sodding huge walker, and so it should be treated like one but as GW wants to sell them....
We have B; a 2+ save is far too good for something that is essentially a Crisis suit but bigger, and it also makes the model far too tanky. Yes, it is a Linebreaker, but that is what the 5++ Invun with its 3++ Nova profile is for.

Agree with the latter, that save makes it bonkers to deal with unless you are sporting grav.

 master of ordinance wrote:

C; We have (roughly) established that the Riptide is a Linebreaker, intended to get in close and breach the foes lines. So why in feths name does it have artillery grade weapons and snipe-thee-from-two-and-a-half-game-boards-away weapons as commonplace mounts. Reducing its weapons to have ranges from 18" to 36"with most averaging out at 24" will force it to actually get in close and perform its designated role, instead of hanging back and acting as an ultra tough killy everything platform.

Agree, I wouldn't mind if it had a rule where if it's stationary and uses the nova it can go to 36" from 24" for the large blast. Would reward positioning and I like options that aren't broken.
It's other weapon needs a buff. It's garbage.

I am on board with a bit of this but the biggest problem with this for me is that formation. Riptide formations need to DIE IN A FIRE!

I'm also a Tau player and have never defended the Riptide.

I hate it for being overpowered and drawing hate onto the army I played for years before it came along.

I hate it for being shoe-horned into fluff in order to justify its existence so GW could sell their big new kit when current Tau players of the time just wanted new fire warriors and crisis suit models.

I always propose fixes that I think would make it a better balanced unit. I want 40k to be balanced. My best, most memorable games were those which were close (and often fought using the 4th ed Tau book during 5th/early 6th).

What I don't want is for it to be smashed into the ground to the point of uselessness as some kind of revenge against Tau for not playing the game the same way as other armies. Lots of people have spent lots of money on Riptide models. I don't want to invalidate their choice even if I dislike the model and its fluff.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I'm also a Tau player and have never defended the Riptide.

I hate it for being overpowered and drawing hate onto the army I played for years before it came along.

I hate it for being shoe-horned into fluff in order to justify its existence so GW could sell their big new kit when current Tau players of the time just wanted new fire warriors and crisis suit models.

I always propose fixes that I think would make it a better balanced unit. I want 40k to be balanced. My best, most memorable games were those which were close (and often fought using the 4th ed Tau book during 5th/early 6th).

What I don't want is for it to be smashed into the ground to the point of uselessness as some kind of revenge against Tau for not playing the game the same way as other armies. Lots of people have spent lots of money on Riptide models. I don't want to invalidate their choice even if I dislike the model and its fluff.

Well unfortunately so far a number of good suggestions have been put forward that put it back into the realm of reality and they have been spit upon by number of posters because the riptide went from an auto-include in every list to a "Maybe" or a "I'll have to actually think while playing?" and they don't like that.

At the moment the Riptide has ZERO weaknesses, it is fast, it is durable, it is shooty and it is CHEAP. The only "weakness" is that it doesn't do that great in CC but it SURVIVES CC, it just doesn't destroy everything in CC. Which since this edition is a shooty as heck edition isn't a huge loss.

A riptide can sit in the back field all game long and shoot things for fun and then jump back into LOS blocking terrain. This is utter nonsense. If I ever get close to the damned things they can jump away. If I ever surprise one and get into CC I get overwatched by everything nearby and then I can't even kill it in the first couple rounds of CC. This thing NEEDS huge nerfs or it needs a HUGE price increase. OR a combination of the two. But at the moment it is better then a wraithknight in a number of different ways.

Hmmm... how about failing a nova charge forces a unique effect in addition to losing a wound?

1-2: Defense system destroyed; reduce Riptide to 3+/6++ saves in all circumstances
4-5: Weapon systems destroyed; treat as random "weapon destroyed" result
5-6: Targeting systems destroyed; the Riptide can only fire snapshots

Reroll duplicates as necessary.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Hmmm... how about failing a nova charge forces a unique effect in addition to losing a wound?

1-2: Defense system destroyed; reduce Riptide to 3+/6++ saves in all circumstances
4-5: Weapon systems destroyed; treat as random "weapon destroyed" result
5-6: Targeting systems destroyed; the Riptide can only fire snapshots

Reroll duplicates as necessary.

No. Each time a Riptide uses the Nova reactor it has a one third chance of failing, unless it has the ECPA or is part of Riptide Wing.

This means that if the Riptide uses its nova reactor every turn in a battle, it will on average get two of those results. It could lose its saves and its main gun within the first two turns, effectively rendering it useless for the whole battle. All that change would do is make Riptides only get taken as part of a Riptide wing, which is a formation which we all agree is very bad and shouldn't exist.

A single roll on the first turn can render the Riptide basically useless for the rest of the battle. And it is also adding more rolling for rollings sake.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Hmmm... how about failing a nova charge forces a unique effect in addition to losing a wound?

1-2: Defense system destroyed; reduce Riptide to 3+/6++ saves in all circumstances
4-5: Weapon systems destroyed; treat as random "weapon destroyed" result
5-6: Targeting systems destroyed; the Riptide can only fire snapshots

Reroll duplicates as necessary.

Oh, that's actually a really cool idea fluff-wise! I think I'd change 5-6 to Engine System destroyed. No assualt jump. Else 3-4 & 5-6 rolls are extremely similar.

From a competitive balance standpoint it just makes the Riptide wing even more mandatory (assuming it's still around).

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Hmmm... how about failing a nova charge forces a unique effect in addition to losing a wound?

1-2: Defense system destroyed; reduce Riptide to 3+/6++ saves in all circumstances
4-5: Weapon systems destroyed; treat as random "weapon destroyed" result
5-6: Targeting systems destroyed; the Riptide can only fire snapshots

Reroll duplicates as necessary.

No. Each time a Riptide uses the Nova reactor it has a one third chance of failing, unless it has the ECPA or is part of Riptide Wing.

This means that if the Riptide uses its nova reactor every turn in a battle, it will on average get two of those results. It could lose its saves and its main gun within the first two turns, effectively rendering it useless for the whole battle. All that change would do is make Riptides only get taken as part of a Riptide wing, which is a formation which we all agree is very bad and shouldn't exist.

A single roll on the first turn can render the Riptide basically useless for the rest of the battle. And it is also adding more rolling for rollings sake.

And a Plasmacutioner can quite easily destroy itself on the first turn of shooting, but your point, other than to whine about how nasty non-Tau players are touching your super mech, is?

 master of ordinance wrote:


And a Plasmacutioner can quite easily destroy itself on the first turn of shooting, but your point, other than to whine about how nasty non-Tau players are touching your super mech, is?

*Sigh* I don't even own a Riptide for feths sake.

And I agree, the Plasmacutioner wrecking itself with its own guns is dumb, so why should we then apply that idiocy to other units? Or is your point just that you hate the Riptide so would rather it be nerfed into uselessness rather than made balanced?

 master of ordinance wrote:


And a Plasmacutioner can quite easily destroy itself on the first turn of shooting, but your point, other than to whine about how nasty non-Tau players are touching your super mech, is?

Didn't Malus say he doesn't like the Riptide, lore wise and game wise?

I don't think it's worth dragging in individual's opinion on the existence of the Riptide anymore, for the sake of having a level discussion about rule ideas. I don't think many people are happy with the Riptide being as powerful as it is anyway in this thread, even the Tau players.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
No. Each time a Riptide uses the Nova reactor it has a one third chance of failing...

You could always elect not to Nova charge, unless you are in do-or-die circumstances. I'm also thinking of atmosphere -- seems like an overcharged reactor going critical ought to have some very catastrophic effects!

materpillar wrote:
Oh, that's actually a really cool idea fluff-wise! I think I'd change 5-6 to Engine System destroyed. No assualt jump. Else 3-4 & 5-6 rolls are extremely similar.

Thanks! What I figured is that at least Tau can use Markerlights in the case of a 5-6 role. Anybody allying in unsupported Riptides as AoC will be stick with the result, though.

You could definitely reduce the consequences of the failed Nova, but it's a lot easier to comp a special rule than agree on statline changes. It's pretty much how GW fixed the Wave Serpent.

An Executioner with plasma sponsons shooting all its weapons will do an average of 1/6 x 1/2 = 1/12 x 5 = 5/12 hull points to itself per turn. That's very unlikely to blow it up in one turn. (quite possible for it to do it over the course of a game, though)

Riptides are fine, they are in an army that has neither psychic powers nor real CC units. For optimum strength, it's ruleset requires a gamble for Nova reactor, which has a 1/3 chance to wound the unit. Also requires the use of markerlights to maximize it's average shooting. I've seen a couple of posts of people saying the 'scour' ML option (ignores cover) is 1 marker light. It's actually 2.

In my experiences of playing with Riptides, the Riptide Wing was probably the poorest showing of the unit. The double attack option doesn't kill as much as you think it should and not moving a turn, to pull it off, can be costly. Also, you generally need to balance out every monstrous/gargantuan creature with some decent amounts of MSU units or you will eventually get worn down/shut down in the later parts of the game. Even in an army of giant robots, MSU/copious wounds still matter.

But don't just take my word for it. Any time another QQ thread on Riptides shows up, evidence is usually the best form of persuasion.

So I present to you a Frontline Gaming video, a competitive list of the Riptide Wing and 2 Stormsurges, getting basically TABLED by Space Marines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Op5ovJHIE8

Are Riptides too strong? Well, the evidence of this video would suggest no.

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are fine, they are in an army that has neither psychic powers nor real CC units. For optimum strength, it's ruleset requires a gamble for Nova reactor, which has a 1/3 chance to wound the unit. Also requires the use of markerlights to maximize it's average shooting. I've seen a couple of posts of people saying the 'scour' ML option (ignores cover) is 1 marker light. It's actually 2.

In my experiences of playing with Riptides, the Riptide Wing was probably the poorest showing of the unit. The double attack option doesn't kill as much as you think it should and not moving a turn, to pull it off, can be costly. Also, you generally need to balance out every monstrous/gargantuan creature with some decent amounts of MSU units or you will eventually get worn down/shut down in the later parts of the game. Even in an army of giant robots, MSU/copious wounds still matter.

But don't just take my word for it. Any time another QQ thread on Riptides shows up, evidence is usually the best form of persuasion.

So I present to you a Frontline Gaming video, a competitive list of the Riptide Wing and 2 Stormsurges, getting basically TABLED by Space Marines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Op5ovJHIE8

Are Riptides too strong? Well, the evidence of this video would suggest no.

YEP, one anecdote totally invalidates any other reasoning! Bravo!

/sarcasm

Space marines are also a top tier army.

I've already admitted that vanilla marines can handle them. That doesn't mean they are fair, but rather that marines can be abused as well.

A single game means nothing. I've seen an ITC game with white scars gladius vs a tide wing of 5 tides and a bunch of obsec eldar bikes in reserve where the tide player kept failing all reserves and the tides took on the entire gladius. By the time the eldar components joined the game, there were still 3 injured tides and an almost-annihilated gladius, at which point the eldar zipped to every objective and laughed. That's 1k of tides effectively beating a 2300ish marine force.

If we're going by anecdotal experience, I've seen way more games like the above where the tides perform at or significantly above their point value than otherwise. Virtually every time I see one on the table it is the MVP unit for its army.

I'm a fan of a slight adjustment to dropping the armor to 3+ (which actually makes them resist grav slightly better) and nerfing the IA and EWO upgrades in some slight fashion.

My dark eldar buddy would love to be able to down a tide in 70 poison shots instead of almost 140 like it is now.

 Bach wrote:
Riptides are fine, they are in an army that has neither psychic powers nor real CC units.

Yeah sure, they just outgun and out tank and out manoeuvre anything else at their points level, and can easily avoid any counters too them.

For optimum strength, it's ruleset requires a gamble for Nova reactor, which has a 1/3 chance to wound the unit.

Boo hoo, you have to actually take a risk to get some reward. Have you ever heard of the Plasmacutioner?

Also requires the use of markerlights to maximize it's average shooting. I've seen a couple of posts of people saying the 'scour' ML option (ignores cover) is 1 marker light. It's actually 2.

Markerlights which are commonplace amongst most Tau armies? And very easy to use, and can be used in overwatch?

In my experiences of playing with Riptides, the Riptide Wing was probably the poorest showing of the unit.

The Riptide wing is bad? What, three incredibly tanky, incredibly shooty units that can put any negative effects from overcharging onto another member of the unit and can double tap their weapons are bad? My my, you poor dear. Let me play my tiny violin.

The double attack option doesn't kill as much as you think it should and not moving a turn, to pull it off, can be costly.

You mean the odd bod might survive? Or you might not wipe out your opponent in a single firestorm? Or you might not be able to avoid the melee unit that has, by some small miracle, managed to survive long enough to reach you?

Also, you generally need to balance out every monstrous/gargantuan creature with some decent amounts of MSU units or you will eventually get worn down/shut down in the later parts of the game. Even in an army of giant robots, MSU/copious wounds still matter.

Oh yes they matter, but they almost never happen. Not with a 2+ save, 3++ invun and 5+++ FNP.

But don't just take my word for it. Any time another QQ thread on Riptides shows up, evidence is usually the best form of persuasion.

We dont take you word because you clearly either do not know what you are talking about and thus live in a world of bliss, or you are a salty Tau player who demands that noone touches his big super cool shiny giant robot.

So I present to you a Frontline Gaming video, a competitive list of the Riptide Wing and 2 Stormsurges, getting basically TABLED by Space Marines.

Yes, Space Marines might do that. After all, they are the only army with access to both the only weapon that effectively counters Riptides (Grav) and the only formations and equipment that can effectively deliver them (That droppod/assault marine formation, Droppods, Libby conclaves, etc). They are the only army that can effectively counter Tau Riptide. No other army can.

Actually, skyhammer is hard-countered by the Tau, MoO. Learn your marines if you ever want to beat them.

Space Wolves and Eldar can sweep up Gundam Tau too. Eldar can bring more WKs than the Tau can shoot off the table.