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Made in rs
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Holy Terra

If the Emperor ever returns to rule the Imperium how would you think he reacted to see Chapters, Guard Regiments and Sister Orders?

What I wanted to ask is:

Back then there were only Legions and they acted as main fighting force with Imperial Army to back them in further securing the captured worlds.
But now Legions are broken into Chapter who, even if they are specialized in various areas and their marines hard trained with every weapon and every possible battle scenario, are much weaker fighting force and serve only as a support or fast assault force.
And instead of being support for the Legion the Army is broken into Guard and Navy and now act as primary fighting and conquering force of the Imperium. Beside begin broken down due to logistics and untrust this actually gave birth to various specialized Guard Regiment and created a fighting force that is as efficient as the old Legions when organised properly, not to mention that it showed that ordinary Humans still posses the power to stand against the horrors of the galaxy and actually win.
And lastly we have Sisterhood that didn't exist back then because of Religious sanction but now serve as force that protects his people and hunt down those who would use their power for their own agenda instead of grater good of Mankind.

So my question basically is: in your opinion what would be his opinion of this three branches of imperial military that developed while he was "away"?

The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

The Sisters, or at least their founders, he has already met with and approved of. This wouldn't likely change, even if he would likely change the dynamics between them an the Ecclesiarchy in order to better utilize them (and increase his sway over the church).

The Imperial Guard would likely both horrify him and inspire him-- after all, they're the Imperial army that actually does the overwhelming majority of the fighting in 40k-- and despite facing such huge odds and massive enemies even in comparison to the enemies in the Great Crusade (such as the Tyranid Hordes), they have done remarkably well.

Space Marines... I imagine he'd be surprised that they still exist, after the huge betrayals that they gave the Imperium in the Horus Heresy. The chapter format would likely make sense to him given the danger they represent.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/02 05:37:14


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Melissia wrote:
Space Marines... I imagine he'd be surprised that they still exist, after the huge betrayals that they gave the Imperium in the Horus Heresy. The chapter format would likely make sense to him given the danger they represent.


Considering he guides every Emperor's Champion into battle I'd be surprised if he were surprised, but other than that I agree with you completely.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Melissia wrote:
The Sisters, or at least their founders, he has already met with and approved of. This wouldn't likely change, even if he would likely change the dynamics between them an the Ecclesiarchy in order to better utilize them (and increase his sway over the church).

The Imperial Guard would likely both horrify him and inspire him-- after all, they're the Imperial army that actually does the overwhelming majority of the fighting in 40k-- and despite facing such huge odds and massive enemies even in comparison to the enemies in the Great Crusade (such as the Tyranid Hordes), they have done remarkably well.

Space Marines... I imagine he'd be surprised that they still exist, after the huge betrayals that they gave the Imperium in the Horus Heresy. The chapter format would likely make sense to him given the danger they represent.


Agreed - although I also do quite like the idea that the Emperor that they met / are inspired by is aprtly a creation of the worship of his subjects

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A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Considering he guides every Emperor's Champion into battle I'd be surprised if he were surprised, but other than that I agree with you completely.


Or at least the Champions imagine he guides them...

   
Made in ph
Battleship Captain




Calixis Sector

 Melissia wrote:
The Sisters, or at least their founders, he has already met with and approved of. This wouldn't likely change, even if he would likely change the dynamics between them an the Ecclesiarchy in order to better utilize them (and increase his sway over the church).


Did they now? For all we know, the 'visions' or whatever they saw when they were brought before the Golden Throne were all just a hallucination. After all, the whole Imperial Palace is saturated with psychic energy, and the throne room worst of all. And in the worst case scenario, that's assuming they aren't influenced by a completely separate entity - the 'God-Emperor' - rather than the dying psyker on the Golden Throne.


Space Marines... I imagine he'd be surprised that they still exist, after the huge betrayals that they gave the Imperium in the Horus Heresy. The chapter format would likely make sense to him given the danger they represent.


Seeing as Malcador founded the Grey Knights - who are Space Marines- on the Emperor's orders, the Space Marines obviously have even more Imperial approval than the Sisters do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/02 15:25:49


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
The Sisters, or at least their founders, he has already met with and approved of. This wouldn't likely change, even if he would likely change the dynamics between them an the Ecclesiarchy in order to better utilize them (and increase his sway over the church).


Did they now? For all we know, the 'visions' or whatever they saw when they were brought before the Golden Throne were all just a hallucination.
And we can imagine that the Emperor was so hardened by the Horus Heresy that he would gladly wipe out all of the Astartes simply so that they didn't remind him of Horus' betrayal.
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

As an extreme hypothetical, if the Emperor managed to wake up, reform himself, and step off the Golden Throne, I think he would take stock of the Imperium. Then, I think after due consideration, his first act would be to kill the Ecclesiarch and disband the Adeptus Ministorum. Given his previous bad experience with slapping down groups trying to worship him, I think he would either keep a stern eye on the disbanded group, and might possibly just purge them all, depending on how likely he thought they were to start another Heresy.

The Guard is still working about how I think the Big E wanted it to, and I think he would praise Roboute Gulliman's Codex (and the break down of the Legions) as a measure which was, at the time, necessary to preserve the Imperium, since the full might of the Legions could not be trusted to imperfect rulers. With the return of himself, the perfect ruler, however, the Legions would be reformed, probably with the best of the Chapters being selected to be his new favored children, and the other chapters incorporated into these new Legions.

Just my personal opinion of course.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/02 22:51:36


Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I doubt that, if he spent time thinking about it, he'd instantly disband them. He already learned that lesson from the Horus Heresy.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ph
Battleship Captain




Calixis Sector

 Melissia wrote:
I doubt that, if he spent time thinking about it, he'd instantly disband them. He already learned that lesson from the Horus Heresy.


The fact that the Grey Knights - who are Astartes - were apparently given the Emperor's trump card, the so-called Terminus Decree, proves that he still considers the Astartes as his prime instruments and not the Ecclesiarchy for all their ranting about being the 'Bearers of the Word of the Emperor'. Irony of ironies: that's how the pre-Heresy Word Bearers described themselves as well.

"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

ITT: fans and haters of the Ecclesiarchy embroiled in an endless debate.

At the end of the day, no-one can say how the Emperor would react if he'd ever awaken, seeing that we don't exactly "know" him (conservatism vs pragmatism + his priorities), neither his original personality nor whatever changes the 10.000 years of playing conduit may have wrought on his mind. There's arguments that could be made for either side, but way too many unclear variables for any sort of consensus.
   
Made in ph
Battleship Captain




Calixis Sector

 Lynata wrote:
ITT: fans and haters of the Ecclesiarchy embroiled in an endless debate.


Seems legit

"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Crimson wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Considering he guides every Emperor's Champion into battle I'd be surprised if he were surprised, but other than that I agree with you completely.


Or at least the Champions imagine he guides them...


Codex: Black Templars says he does, and it's not in a "in-universe" explanation either. It's stated as fact by the omniscient narrator.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Codex: Black Templars says he does, and it's not in a "in-universe" explanation either. It's stated as fact by the omniscient narrator.


You should know that there is no omniscient narrator in 40K. Every piece of fluff is just a possible truth. It might be a lie or myth.

   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Often it is very subtle, too.

Someone reading the Sisters Codex only once might easily get the idea that they really get their powers from the Emperor - merely because the line "abilities that seem miraculous to the unschooled" is extremely easy to miss, and because everywhere else it talks about God-Emperor this, God-Emperor that.

In regards to the Champion, for example, something like "filled with the Emperor's spirit" is a rather vague explanation that could just as well mean the Marine being filled with righteous fervor and holy hatred, as these are the things the Emperor and thus his spirit are commonly associated by in the 41st millennium.

It's a rather interesting and fun pastime to try reading between the lines, even though we can never be sure about anything.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Lynata wrote:
ITT: fans and haters of the Ecclesiarchy embroiled in an endless debate.

At the end of the day, no-one can say how the Emperor would react if he'd ever awaken, seeing that we don't exactly "know" him (conservatism vs pragmatism + his priorities), neither his original personality nor whatever changes the 10.000 years of playing conduit may have wrought on his mind. There's arguments that could be made for either side, but way too many unclear variables for any sort of consensus.




As one employee of the BL remarked, "Everyone seems to make their own Emperor, constructed out of their own biases."

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Which is also true in-universe.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Tough Traitorous Guardsman




[Someone reading the Sisters Codex only once might easily get the idea that they really get their powers from the Emperor - merely because the line "abilities that seem miraculous to the unschooled" is extremely easy to miss, and because everywhere else it talks about God-Emperor this, God-Emperor that.
]
Does soulstorm qualify as a legit source, in it the sisters use Emperor based powers like flying saints.

Like the great storm of the Horus Heresy, the forces of the True Gods will descend upon the Emperor's minions. The stars will tremble at their passage and the mighty armadas of the Warmaster Abaddon will bring annihilation to a hundred worlds. Know this, for these things will come to pass.  
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

The Saint also flies in the official artwork. The model even has wings.

But arguably that's just a technological thing.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





1. I would think he disapproved of the Sisters of Battle. They are hardcore zealots who shoot the balls of of any man that denies belief in the divinity of the Emperor. Considering he bitch-slapped his own son for believing he is a God I doubt he'll be cool with the SoB.

2. He'd be like Imperial Guardsmen feth YEAH! (think Team American themesong)

3. I suspect he would agree with the Codex changes.

I honestly think a lot of this depends on how much he changed after being sealed in the Golden Throne. Did he finally realize what an asshat he was? As he decided that the faith he provides is more important than the calculating logic of athiesm? It's all up in the air.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 07:25:22


 
   
Made in ph
Battleship Captain




Calixis Sector

Yeah, he'd probably agree with the codex. After all, the Grey Knights were founded as a Chapter before the Horus Heresy ended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/04 07:39:27


"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same" 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest





 Mr Morden wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
The Sisters, or at least their founders, he has already met with and approved of. This wouldn't likely change, even if he would likely change the dynamics between them an the Ecclesiarchy in order to better utilize them (and increase his sway over the church).

The Imperial Guard would likely both horrify him and inspire him-- after all, they're the Imperial army that actually does the overwhelming majority of the fighting in 40k-- and despite facing such huge odds and massive enemies even in comparison to the enemies in the Great Crusade (such as the Tyranid Hordes), they have done remarkably well.

Space Marines... I imagine he'd be surprised that they still exist, after the huge betrayals that they gave the Imperium in the Horus Heresy. The chapter format would likely make sense to him given the danger they represent.


Agreed - although I also do quite like the idea that the Emperor that they met / are inspired by is aprtly a creation of the worship of his subjects

Considering the Emperor's basically a living warp god created in a more deliberate, and smaller scale, version of what happened with Slaanesh (unless that's been retconned recently), it would probably be fed by the fanatic belief of anything with a warp presence, so it wouldn't make much sense for there to be another warp-entity emperor created by worship...

 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Considering the Emperor's basically a living warp god created in a more deliberate, and smaller scale, version of what happened with Slaanesh (unless that's been retconned recently), it would probably be fed by the fanatic belief of anything with a warp presence, so it wouldn't make much sense for there to be another warp-entity emperor created by worship...


What hasn't been "conned" at all is the question of whether or not the God-Emperor actually exists as anything other than a concept amongst humanity in 40K.

It is possible that human belief in this concept has created a Warp God, in much the same way that Slaanesh was created... but we don't know if that has actually happened. We also don't know if there really is a psychic mind trapped in a crippled body housed in the Golden Throne that guides the Astronomican, directs the Emperor's Tarot, and keeps the Webway under the Throne closed.

All of these things are possible, but none of them are confirmed.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:Does soulstorm qualify as a legit source, in it the sisters use Emperor based powers like flying saints.
Not to mention the spirit angels, or the bolters that suddenly start shooting golden lasers.

In 40k, everything is a legit source (Gav Thorpe outright set fanfiction and BL novels on the same level in his blog) - but they can still contradict each other, so you'll have to pick. Myths and legends, half-truths and lies ...

For example ->
Shlazaor wrote:Considering he bitch-slapped his own son for believing he is a God I doubt he'll be cool with the SoB.
The Index Astartes suggests that the Emperor "bitchslapped" Lorgar not because of the worship per se but because it was a waste of time that was slowing the military advance:

"When the Emperor took note of Lorgar's slow advance across the stars, he personally reproached his Primarch. He informed Lorgar that his purpose was not for faith, but for battle. The true mission of the Space Marines was to re-conquer and unify the galaxy under the banner of Imperium, not to waste precious time and resources in vast displays of fealty and piety. [...]
The Emperor was on the verge of once again reprimanding his tardy Primarch when news came that the Legion had suddenly renewed its campaign. Worlds now fell before the Word Bearers like ripe grain. The assaults were quick and devastating; no longer did Lorgar offer redemption or salvation to those he set his Legion against. The embittered Primarch offered only the sword, and in his wrath the holocausts were unnumbered. Pleased with what he saw as progress, the Emperor turned his eyes towards other matters."


From what I've heard, the HH novels give the Emperor a much stricter and way more anti-religious stance, so there is a clear conflict - be it due to the Index Astartes containing revisionist history, or due to the Horus Heresy novels being full of twisted myth and hearsay.
I think Aaron Dembski-Bowden said it best: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

That doesn't mean threads like these are entirely useless, though. We can still exchange perceptions or ideas, and other dakkanauts have given me much inspiration in the past, or even got me to order books that I think would be relevant to my interests but were not in my possession yet. Ultimately, I'd just caution everyone not to assume anything as "fact".

Hypothetical discussions can be rather interesting, and I've always enjoyed "what if" scenarios. Questions of canonicity and the Emperor's possible opinion on religion aside, I could imagine a discussion about the "tangible" benefits that the Imperial faith has conferred to the Imperium as a whole - such as the stabilising influence of religion in the daily lives of the citizenry and thus the geopolitical situation of the realm, or the impressive feats of the Sisters of Battle who find strength and perserverance in their beliefs. But do the costs outweigh the gain?
That might almost make for a thread on its own, though.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 23:57:23


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Even though I do not much care for general tone of HH books, I have to say I love this anti-religion stance of the Emperor. Guy who tries to end religion and superstition ending up being worshipped as god is too hilarious to pass.

   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Good point - it is a deliciously grimdark twist.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Lynata wrote:
ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:I think Aaron Dembski-Bowden said it best: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

That doesn't mean threads like these are entirely useless, though. We can still exchange perceptions or ideas, and other dakkanauts have given me much inspiration in the past, or even got me to order books that I think would be relevant to my interests but were not in my possession yet. Ultimately, I'd just caution everyone not to assume anything as "fact".



In a very strange sense, 40K's take on history is quite reflective of how our own understanding of history and reporting of current events works in the real world.

To paraphrase a GW source - No one will deny that a certain battle or Black Crusade occur. The facts are well established if a major figure dies or a world is lost - you really can't "hide" any of that. But the details, the inner motivations, and the thoughts of the participants in the conflict? We have only what "sources" tell us....and ultimately what we would like to believe.

ie: What Lynata said about every BL book being "a piece of propaganda" for their respective subject (ie: Blood Ravens are cool! No the Ultramarines are cool!) etc. is spot on.

However, for a certain segment of the fandom - this has never been good enough. I suppose they want something a little more...organized, in the manner like Star Trek or perhaps like George Lucas's Star Wars Expanded Universe.

[Little Known Fact: There's a specific Unit within LucasArts whose Sole Job is Consistency. As in the maintenance of Consistency across every single Video Game, Novel, Comic Book, etc.

Since the advent of that Intellectual Property Unit(brought about due to some sort of incident with Ewoks apparently), there has only been incredibly tiny minor conflicts (like really really minor) between all owned Star Wars properties. The whole Star Wars Fictional univese can be seen as one Giant Integrated Collective Whole. Although i'm gambling that since Lucas sold everything to Disney, that level of integration will evaporate.]

And i suppose part of the "fun" is well.....arguing about "why I possess the sole Truth about (insert favorte topic - The Emperor, the Tau, Who are the Greatest Space Marines Chapter) and why everyone else is a bunch of (insert favorte explicative statement) " on internet message boards.

I have always wondered though - which is a Better Way to Run one's IP? Lucas's method? 40Ks? Or that kind of Middle Ground used by a lot of other Fantasy/Science Fiction franchises like Star Trek where some things are Officially Included and others Officially Excluded.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/05 15:06:22


 
   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

I think that's very much a matter of personal preferences. A large number of 40k writers have expressed their own preference for artistic licence, as of course it is somewhat easier to come up with stuff when you're not bound by as many rules. The price we all pay is the potential lack of compatibility at worst, a lingering doubt about whether anything is meant to fit together at best.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth.
I understand that Tolkien took decades developing his setting before publishing the stories set within it, and still made mistooks. 40k is an ever-evolving setting designed first and foremost to house a really cool game, and as such things don’t always mesh or translate, or they (actually very occasionally) get changed outright. I know which I’d rather be reading and writing. "

- Andy Hoare (in the comments section)

Personally, I still prefer the consistency of an approach more like the Star Wars franchise, or better yet Battletech, because it ends up feeling more like "a greather whole" where everything is meant to fit together. As you said, for a segment of the fanbase just having the material alone is not enough. They want to understand the setting, and they want to see book X they just purchased actually matter in the grand scheme of things. I actually believe this is the default approach that many fans take, in part because continuity has become a sort of industry standard.

On a sidenote, SW is already in a state of flux because Lucas keeps rewriting things of the EU with his own ideas, be them in the prequels or the Clone Wars series. The franchise still offers the advantage that you know which source overrides which, however - so whilst fans may bitch and moan about this and that not being valid anymore because Lucas just retconned it, at least they do know what is valid. There is no doubt between the sources, there is always a clear hierarchy on which comes first whenever a conflict arises. And for many of those conflicts, the continuity unit mentioned in Sphinx' post actually manages to find resolutions for, preserving both sources' integrity by way of some clever excuse in order to reconcile any apparent contradictions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 16:39:30


 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Lynata wrote:

In regards to the Champion, for example, something like "filled with the Emperor's spirit" is a rather vague explanation that could just as well mean the Marine being filled with righteous fervor and holy hatred, as these are the things the Emperor and thus his spirit are commonly associated by in the 41st millennium.


"There are few who can stand before this heroic warrior, his every blow guided by the Emperor's hand and fortified with faith and conviction in his cause."

Emphasis mine. Pretty unambiguous if you ask me.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

"There are few who can stand before this heroic warrior, his every blow guided by the Emperor's hand and fortified with faith and conviction in his cause."


So you take that literally? Is Emperor's skeletal hand actually attached to their wrist, guiding their strikes?

   
 
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