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Iracundus wrote:


Problem is there are both model pictures and artwork in the Codex depicting the 2 arm gun and 2 shoulder mount loadout. And the rules for the ghostglaive were obviously written with the new Wraithlord in mine and not so much the Wraithknight since it is already at maximum Strength.

That was just GW trying to sell a model (look at how many guns it can take!), it will entice people to buy it. Fair enough that the ghostglaive benefits the wraithlord more but for people who want a cc orientated WK at least they can have some shooting too.

shade1313 wrote:


That being said, the sword is kind of dumb for something that's already at max strength. All it gives is one reroll per turn. Really weak.

Well as I said some people may want a cc WK, the reason there are so many options for the WK are because it can take 3 different loadouts and depending on them it can fire 1 or both of it's shoulder mounted weapons every turn. I don't see how more loadout options is a bad thing. See my previous post about tyranid MC with more guns than they can shoot if they take everything is nothing new.

I wonder how hard it would be to shoulder / back mount a starcannon, then have a scatterlaser on the other shoulder (or hooked up to the starcannon) so it can have a sword (cometically) and shield, with the cannon

Iracundus wrote:
The option to get scatter lasers on other platforms is intensely relevant as those are the direct competition for any mounting of shoulder weapons on a Wraithknight, if we disregard the Laser Lock rule for the moment. Unless one is desperate for more heavy weapons to be fielded at any price, there are more efficient ways to do so, and just because it is possible to do something doesn't make it a good idea nor not a game design mistake. For something to be a viable choice, it has to offer enough cost vs. benefit. I hope you are not seriously suggesting taking 2 scatter lasers just on the possibility of score 8/6 hits on Overwatch as a reason to field 2 shoulder mount scatter lasers on a Wraithknight. Again if the goal was to spray and pray lasers at flyers, there are other platforms that can do equally well, without the forgone opportunity cost of giving up an arm weapon's firing, which if it is a suncannon has also cost points.

Way to move the goal post. The original argument has been about why GW would allow you to take 4 weapons on a MC. Efficiency has NOTHING to do with that. Again you are assuming that GW should some how force efficient list building by restricting options? That's almost as idiotic as your argument in the first place. Their are reasons why it should have the option to take shoulder weapons, good or not they exist. If I want to field one with sword and board, bam 2 shoulder guns. Sun canon and shield, hey look a flier, bam, shoulder guns. Are there better ways to spend points? Probably, but that has nothing to do with original claim that they made a mistake. Perhaps the mistake is when some bad gamer shows up with 4 weapons because he doesn't know the rules well.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The option to get scatter lasers on other platforms is intensely relevant as those are the direct competition for any mounting of shoulder weapons on a Wraithknight, if we disregard the Laser Lock rule for the moment. Unless one is desperate for more heavy weapons to be fielded at any price, there are more efficient ways to do so, and just because it is possible to do something doesn't make it a good idea nor not a game design mistake. For something to be a viable choice, it has to offer enough cost vs. benefit. I hope you are not seriously suggesting taking 2 scatter lasers just on the possibility of score 8/6 hits on Overwatch as a reason to field 2 shoulder mount scatter lasers on a Wraithknight. Again if the goal was to spray and pray lasers at flyers, there are other platforms that can do equally well, without the forgone opportunity cost of giving up an arm weapon's firing, which if it is a suncannon has also cost points.

Way to move the goal post. The original argument has been about why GW would allow you to take 4 weapons on a MC. Efficiency has NOTHING to do with that. Again you are assuming that GW should some how force efficient list building by restricting options? That's almost as idiotic as your argument in the first place. Their are reasons why it should have the option to take shoulder weapons, good or not they exist. If I want to field one with sword and board, bam 2 shoulder guns. Sun canon and shield, hey look a flier, bam, shoulder guns. Are there better ways to spend points? Probably, but that has nothing to do with original claim that they made a mistake. Perhaps the mistake is when some bad gamer shows up with 4 weapons because he doesn't know the rules well.

Efficiency has everything to do with why something might get taken or not taken. That is why obviously bad choices in a Codex become rarely seen. In 3rd edition Guardian jetbikes were a bad choice, and sure enough they vanished or became rare. Shining Spears were terrible and then they were improved, so they became slightly more common. Bright Lance Wraithlords under the old Codex and editions? Poor and overpriced option so became rarer. Wraithlords armed with 2 of the same weapon when it just resulted in twin linking? Also rarely seen. Sure there are some people that are going to willingly kneecap themselves but that doesn't make it any less of a bad choice, and when it comes to the Wraithknight it effectively removes most of the choices. It is possible to make up inefficient and downright illogical reasons to take something that might work if the planets align as evidenced by people taking fluff choices for an army even when those options were poor, but it doesn't excuse poor design decision on GW's part for making those options poor in the first place. Having a fluffy army and an army that is effective shouldn't at times be mutually contradictory.

That was precisely Gav Thorpe's failure in the 3rd edition Codex. He at some point afterwards said the assumption was that people as a whole would take a mix of the good and the bad units and end up with average performance Instead predictably enough, people loaded up on the good and didn't field the bad. So yes, efficiency has everything to do with how often something will appear in armies.

Poor utility options need to be cheaper. The shoulder mounts should be cheaper for the foregone opportunity cost in firing them if armed with an arm weapon. The ghostglaive and shield option is almost a downgrade considering its poor rules for a Wraithknight and of giving up the option for a ranged arm weapon. Can other things fill the heavy weapon role? Yes. Can other things mount the heavy wraithcannon or suncannon? No. There is an opportunity cost associated then with mounting the ghostglaive + shield option. When things are overpriced (including opportunity cost), then they will be rarer. Choices need to be competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacob29 wrote:
One of the exarch powers is FnP.

But nobody can buy it.

Fuegan has it. It's like how only the War Walker has the power field vehicle equipment and nothing else can buy it.

One of the exarch powers is FnP.

But nobody can buy it.

Jacob29 wrote:
One of the exarch powers is FnP.

But nobody can buy it.

It's only there because Fuegan has FnP

Hey guys quick question on Warlock Powers. Is it at the beginning of the game that you choose the blessing or the malediction or is it every time you role for the psychic test? Thanks!

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The wraith fighter is fricken awesome. Move on from reserve, terrify the unit on the quad gun, then kill it.

You can't cast Blessings/Maledictions on the turn you arrive from reserves, unfortunately.

The FAQ allowed it, as they occur at the same time, the active player was allowed to choose.


Page seven of the rulebook FAQ, bottom left hand side. I would copy/paste, but my computer is doing weird stuff when I try it.

Shouldn't this thread be closed....the codex is out and there is lots going on in 40K discussion now, its hard to keep up with it all.

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Not really. It actually allows you to fire overwatch if you have a suncannon. Since the suncannon can't fire snapshots as a blast weapon. It also allows for more shots for overwatch from the one with 2 heavy wraith cannons. It is an additional survival mechanism, not meant as the main weapon.

Only problem is that the shoulder weapons are priced as main weapons.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The wraith fighter is fricken awesome. Move on from reserve, terrify the unit on the quad gun, then kill it.

You can't cast Blessings/Maledictions on the turn you arrive from reserves, unfortunately.

The FAQ allowed it, as they occur at the same time, the active player was allowed to choose.


Page seven of the rulebook FAQ, bottom left hand side. I would copy/paste, but my computer is doing weird stuff when I try it.

Did you not read the rest of the posts? That FAQ has no bearing on the restriction on page 67.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Only problem is that the shoulder weapons are priced as main weapons.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
The wraith fighter is fricken awesome. Move on from reserve, terrify the unit on the quad gun, then kill it.

You can't cast Blessings/Maledictions on the turn you arrive from reserves, unfortunately.

The FAQ allowed it, as they occur at the same time, the active player was allowed to choose.


Page seven of the rulebook FAQ, bottom left hand side. I would copy/paste, but my computer is doing weird stuff when I try it.

Did you not read the rest of the posts? That FAQ has no bearing on the restriction on page 67.

Good lord, how did I miss that one? Maybe because I usually don't use psychers. Thanks, maybe not so awesome, back to my list drawing board.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Not really. It actually allows you to fire overwatch if you have a suncannon. Since the suncannon can't fire snapshots as a blast weapon. It also allows for more shots for overwatch from the one with 2 heavy wraith cannons. It is an additional survival mechanism, not meant as the main weapon.

I agree completely. After all, when do you see giant mechs with multiple guns fire ALL those guns? Some people won't understand why it can take that many guns, but there are god, valid points. Contrary to your faulty belief Iracundus, those options were not a mistake on GW's part. Tau Battlesuit Commanders can take 4 weapons. Is that a mistake too? Or clear obvious rule design intending to create variation?

 megatrons2nd wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Not really. It actually allows you to fire overwatch if you have a suncannon. Since the suncannon can't fire snapshots as a blast weapon. It also allows for more shots for overwatch from the one with 2 heavy wraith cannons. It is an additional survival mechanism, not meant as the main weapon.

And again as I stated in above posts, the shoulder mount is priced inappropriately if the only realistic purpose people can give for it is to snap shot for those Wraithknight loadouts, because it is priced as the same as other heavy weapon choices. A hefty price to pay for 8/6 hits assuming two scatter laser mounts.

Tau Battlesuit Commanders can take 4 weapons. Is that a mistake too? Or clear obvious rule design intending to create variation?

Mistake, if those prices are not adjusted for opportunity cost. Also there is a key issue in that it allows for twin-linking if you select 2 of the same weapon system. There is thus a reasonable purpose if one wanted the main weapon system of the suit to be twin-linked.

GW is not some ineffable infallible entity with deep mysterious purposes behind everything. They have screwed up before.

The original comment was that having 4 weapon options was a mistake. No, that is not a mistake. Is the pricing off kilter? Yes, as it stands right now. But having 4 weapon options is not a mistake. This wasn't about point costs and "oppurtunity costs."
It is not in "desperate need of an faq." Stop making mountains out of mole hills.

All else aside, having the spirit stone twin in the WK able to fire those backup weapons (even at a reduced BS, if necessary) would have been a great way to tie in that bit of fluff.

Neronoxx wrote:
The original comment was that having 4 weapon options was a mistake. No, that is not a mistake. Is the pricing off kilter? Yes, as it stands right now. But having 4 weapon options is not a mistake. This wasn't about point costs and "oppurtunity costs."
It is not in "desperate need of an faq." Stop making mountains out of mole hills.

It is a mistake as they offer no reasonable additional function beyond the laser lock for anything other than the ghostglaive armed version, and even then at that kind of a cost, it would be up for debate. Opportunity costs do matter because if you ask people to give up a much more powerful and limited in supply arm weapon's shooting for a bog standard heavy weapon that is available on a variety of other options then there has to be a compensating reason. Without the ability to fire all the weapons, having 4 weapons at full price is a mistake since having more than one does not make them twin-linked (unlike the Tau commander suit options). Paying full price for the sole reason of snap shots is ridiculously overpriced as well and if that is the sole reason then it is still a mistake in design to expect people to pay and mount weapons for that reason.

These are not integral weapons like on a Wraithlord or Riptide. These are additional weapons that GW is asking players pay full undiscounted point cost for. The result is likely to be the same as whenever GW has made weak illogical options: these options dwindle in frequency. Just like the old Codex version of the Wraithlord with "twin-linked Bright Lance" costing as much as 2 Bright Lances.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Shandara wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Looking over the Codex, I see GW really messed up big time with the Wraithknight. It is in desperate need of a FAQ as otherwise it can only fire 2 weapons, rendering all those model pictures and artwork showing it with 4 guns to be completely useless.

As it is, it comes standard with 2 heavy wraithcannons. Pre-FAQ, the realistic choices are to either leave it as is, or the only other viable options are "suncannon + shield" + shoulder scatter laser (to twin link the suncannon). Ghostglaive + shield is pointless as the ghostglaive's effects are half wasted since Wraithknight is at max Strength already. However that means it is left with just 2 shoulder weapon mounts as ranged weapons. The shield can only be taken as those 2 combinations so there aren't many choices at all. A ghostglaive armed Wraithknight could jump into close combat (since it is Jump Monstrous Creature) but still seems overpriced considering its WS.

Remember they haven't FAQ'ed Tzeentch chariots into usefulness yet (unless you consider stationary chariots with short-range weaponry useful). I wouldn't hold out for a quick fix.

I wonder if GW is even aware of this big gaping hole in the rules of the star of their new release. Maybe people should notify them.

You do realize that the smaller version the wraithlord can have 4 weapons. Two arm mounted and two shoulder right? He can't fire both catapults/flamers AND his shoulder weapons either. It makes perfect sense the way it is, the WK has an awesome CC profile and a jump pack, hes not supposed to outgun a riptide on top of it.

The Wraithlord is stuck with those as standard and presumably already embedded in the base cost though yes that is still not optimal. However the Wraithknight is forced to pay additional points for useless weapons. That is another thing and further renders the choices useless.

Ummmm.... the shoulder guns are optional on the WK

And nobody has ever said they are not, but GW has not given any reason to take them beyond at most a scatter laser to take advantage of the Laser Lock rule since the limitations on the Wraithknight prevent it from using more than 2 weapons. Paying more points for weapons that cannot be used is what makes no sense and what renders those options pointless.

This is a silly argument, I can buy more guns then I can fire with a riptide as well. The only reason why anyone made any such claim that he should fire more then two weapons is because of the laser lock rule. Had they not included that rule on SL then the whole argument never would have occurred. People keep assuming that all load outs that can be taken as options on things MUST be useful. This has historically been false, welcome to 4ok

Why shouldn't I assume that my WL should be able to fire his Scatter Laser then his shuriken catapults and shuriken canon all twin linked? After all it's an optional load out for him and it synergizes well...

And as I already examined above, there is no circumstance in which one would want to use the shoulder weapons aside from the Laser Lock rule. If it is just to fire 2 shoulder weapons, there are far easier ways to get those 2 heavy weapons. If it is armed with dual heavy wraithcannons, then they serve no purpose other than eating up points. If you mount the suncannon, then there is just the scatter laser for synergy or starcannon if one is absolutely desperate for a few more AP 2 shots. Even if the Laser Lock rule did not exist, there would be little point to fitting shoulder weapons unless one were absolutely desperate for that one extra heavy weapon. There are cheaper options for heavy weapons elsewhere.

It is poor game design to offer options that have little incentive to take them. If something is of poor utility, they should be cheap. If something is of high utility it should be expensive. Having poor utility options at high cost is a good way to ensure they don't get used. For a new release large model meant to be the visual centrepiece of an army, that is poor meshing of rules design with model, and hence also poor marketing towards those that want something useful in game.

Last I checked it is way better to fire 8 s6 shots on overwatch then it is to fire nothing if armed with a suncanon.There you go, thats a scenario where they are useful outside your narrow scope. Or the fact that it can now use them on a flier when it otherwise would have no impact.... oh look another reason....

Whether or not there are other ways to get scatter lasers is not relevant, it's more cost efficient to arm heavy weapons on vypers instead of tanks, yet they both have the option because they fulfill wildly different rolls.

People on here just literally want every unit entry to be the best at everything, it's ridiculous.

Look at that things stats and weapons and now compare its price tag to a carnifex and then lets hear you continue to bitch.

It wasn't a mistake, get over it and move on.

I hate pointless monster quotes

But I agree, the usefullness of this thread is reaching its end, with the official Eldar release today.

I haven't been able to get my codex yet, and I'm sorry if its been asked. What are the ranges on the heavy wraith cannons and the sun cannon?

I'm still curious as whether you can still boost fireprisms by crossing the beams...
And if rangers retain their marksman ability of getting AP 1 on to hit rolls of 6...

damn I want my codex to arrive -.-

Lock it up Mod?

 Enigma wrote:
I'm still curious as whether you can still boost fireprisms by crossing the beams...
And if rangers retain their marksman ability of getting AP 1 on to hit rolls of 6...

damn I want my codex to arrive -.-

No to both.

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

 Enigma wrote:
I'm still curious as whether you can still boost fireprisms by crossing the beams...
And if rangers retain their marksman ability of getting AP 1 on to hit rolls of 6...

damn I want my codex to arrive -.-

No to both.

you've got to be kidding me... that was one of the few things that made the prisms special... and not just a railgun á la Eldar :(
And now I need a special character to get snipers that feel special... and those snipers are automaticaly alaitoc ones at that

/endwhine

 Enigma wrote:

 B0B MaRlEy wrote:

 Enigma wrote:
I'm still curious as whether you can still boost fireprisms by crossing the beams...
And if rangers retain their marksman ability of getting AP 1 on to hit rolls of 6...

damn I want my codex to arrive -.-

No to both.

you've got to be kidding me... that was one of the few things that made the prisms special... and not just a railgun á la Eldar :(
And now I need a special character to get snipers that feel special... and those snipers are automaticaly alaitoc ones at that

/endwhine

But the new fire prisms are still really good, they have ap3 large blast and s9 ap 1 lance mode (new mode), with a blast ap2 mode as well.

I am already thinking runnin 2 fire prisms.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

But the new fire prisms are still really good, they have ap3 large blast and s9 ap 1 lance mode (new mode), with a blast ap2 mode as well.

I am already thinking runnin 2 fire prisms.

How does that work?

Similar to Tau Ion-Weapon overcharge?

Yeah I know, I'm not whining about how good it is, I've really missed that it never had the lance rule before. I think it really should be THE long-range anti tank from Eldar... but removing the boost from other tanks just turns it back into an "ordinary" weapon. In the last codex it at least had something that distinguished it from other antitank-tanks like vanquisers or hammerheads...

I'm really just annoyed that they removed the thing that made it stand out

 Zweischneid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

But the new fire prisms are still really good, they have ap3 large blast and s9 ap 1 lance mode (new mode), with a blast ap2 mode as well.

I am already thinking runnin 2 fire prisms.

How does that work?

Similar to Tau Ion-Weapon overcharge?

No, it is like the krak/frag/flakk missile. You just have 3 firing modes and pick one. There are no drawbacks (well one is large blast, the other is blast and the last one is a single target lance)


@enigma i agree it was pretty unique. Although with the new shooting mode it is a bit redundant.

yeah, it didn't get worse, quite the opposite... but I miss the uniqueness

still, I'm really looking forward to use it as it is

Iracundus wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed that Shining Spears no longer have the option to take a shuriken catapult?

They do. They have Eldar Jetbikes and those are listed as having a twin linked catapult as standard.

Oops... I meant Shuriken Cannon....

I am disappointed that Shining Spears can no longer take Shuriken Cannons... now they don't have any ranged game.

Incase it hasn't been mentioned there is inconsistancies with images floating online and the physical codex. Sadly Doom does state "failed" to wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Autaurch can take Swooping Hawk wings but if he joins them they can no longer skyleap and no longer are scatter free. Way to go GW on making that option pointless...