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Made in ca
Horrific Horror







I would like to propose a change to the mechanics of units which includes spears.

If the unit has Spears and Hand weapons and shield (or pays the extra to have all three) then the front 2 ranks can use Hand weapon and shields and every additional rank can use Spears. This would allow the third and additional ranks (dependant on unit size and army special rules IE Hordes and High Elves) to attack (not if they charge) and the front ranks would still be able to defend themselves a little better. Get +1 to armour save for using the shield and a 6+ Ward Save for Hand weapon and Shield.

For fluff purposes this would be an example of spears being thrown / dropped before the charging unit gets into combat and defending yourself as best as possible. If I was face to face with my opponent my spear would not be the weapon of choice.

From Historical purposes it would seem a little more accurate for the use of the equipment assign to the unit. Shield men up front with long pointy weapons sticking out over or between the shields.

From a game play aspect it would make units last a little longer.

This is only a suggestion.

I welcome any and all feedback and look forward to an open and enlightening discussion.


What do you mean "IT MOVED?"

Motto: That which does not Kill me, SHOULD RUN. 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





North Carolina

I would add the first round of combat the spear unit gets +1 strength if charging or being charged.


"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan - 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't really understand it. I think it's a little confusing. I think you should just universally change spears if you're concerned about it. It's a lot cleaner and it applies to anyone who can buy them and not the nebulous group that might have started with shields or might be able to buy them--also, that wasn't part of the balance when they set up the army books so it's arbitrary.

Something like, 6+ parry chance on the first round of combat for spears is a whole lot easier/cleaner.

As for fluff, you're proposing a universal rule and plenty of armies/fluff aren't going to drop their spear and have a handy sword and shield. That's awful expensive in horde armies.

   
Made in ca
Horrific Horror







I took some time before responding to the previous message as I wanted to review what I wrote.

So for simplicity:
If a unit has Hand weapon, Shield and Spears (either base or paid for as an add on) they get a +1 Armour save and 6+ Parry (Ward Save).
And the units 3rd and subsequent ranks can still attack based on the Spear, Horde and High Elf special rules.

This represents the front 2 ranks using their Hand Weapon and shield in Close Combat and the 3rd and subsequent ranks using their spears.

Does that clarify / simplify the explanation?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/18 14:32:51


What do you mean "IT MOVED?"

Motto: That which does not Kill me, SHOULD RUN. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think it's too weird and there's only a handful of units in the entire game who can make use of it. Probably less than 6, which doesn't seem like a great universal rule. They basically have to have shield and spear option.

Everyone has hand weapon, so that should always be taken out for clarity.

Again, simply change spear. Something like a 6+ parry on first round representing it harder to reach the target through the spears or -1 charge distance against spears.

I think anything else is too much. Whether the first row or first 50 rows have +1 armor and 6+ parry is irrelevant because of step-up. Basically everyone has it.

All the army books also say you may choose to buy ONE of the following. Which would be shield/spear usually. I think that's a good rule. Mixing in GW and Shields and Spears and Ironfists and shortbows doesn't seem to be the spirit of the game. You give units a weapon and they can get outmaneuvered based on that. If spears suck, make them better. But you shouldn't be required to have the option of a shield to make your spear better as units with just spears would still suck (if you feel they do).

   
Made in pl
Death-Dealing Devastator




Poland

How about +1 strength in the first round of combat if unit with spears got charged by cavalry.

sergeant of the devestators 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

If you're looking to make spears operate like a phalanx or a pike block, I'd do one of two things, depending on your goal:

1) allow the models in question to utilize a shield and a spear simultaneously, with the normal rules (6+ parry save, extra ranks can attack) [for a phalanx]

2) Deny the enemy any charging bonus (furious charges, flails, extra attacks, etc) because they have to work their way through the hedge of pikes first [for pike blocks]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/21 09:30:43


 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Spears need to be better than they currently are. The problem is, they can't be Always-And-Forever-Better than the hand weapon/shield combo.

This seems to be what you're suggesting:

Spear and Shield: Fight in Extra Rank*, Parry
*Does not apply on a turn in which the model charged.

Saying that the front two ranks use their hand weapons while the other ranks use their spears doesn't mean anything, because spears only offer a benefit to the 3rd ranks and back. So, for simplicity's sake, you might as well say that Spears give you a Parry save.

Which I'm not fond of. Spears are good defensive weapons, but should have a purpose that differs from the hand weapon/shield. Ideally, I'd like to see something like:

Spear: Fight in Extra Ranks*, Strength: user+1**
*Does not apply on a turn in which the model charged.
**Applies only in the first round of combat, and only if the model has not charged.

OR

Spear: Fight in Extra Ranks*, Always Strikes First**
*Does not apply on a turn in which the model charged.
**Applies only in the first round of combat, and only if the model has not charged.

Simple, with an emphasis on being charged, and not so significant that everyone always takes them and games turn into 6-turn stand-offs.

 
   
Made in ca
Horrific Horror







Thanks for the input. I guess I will go back tot he drawing board of my rules adjustment. Need to play test and try some of the different items discussed here.

What do you mean "IT MOVED?"

Motto: That which does not Kill me, SHOULD RUN. 
   
Made in us
Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

-1 to be hit on the charge from the front work.
It makes spears blunt a charge like no other weapon, but no significant defensive bonus once the lines collide.

It would be spear blocks dangerous to charge into, but not any more effective if they charge into you.
I wouldn't want to charge into a 6 deep saurus spear block. With static combat res and ~20 S4 attacks, I'd be hard pressed to come out on the winning side of the fight. But let them charge me, and I'm not at the -1 to hit, saurus are getting 15 instead of 20 attacks, and am likely to win or at least hold.

-Matt

 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





If you want spears to work stop charging for spears and shields seperately. Make them one upgrade all in one.

Right now the default situation is for a generic trooper to start with a hand weapon, and have the option to upgrade to;
Get a shield to go with you hand weapon for 1 point
Or get a halberd that replaces your halberd 1 point
Or get a second hand weapons, to have two hand weapons for 1 point
Or get a shield to replace your hand weapon for 1 point... and then if you want to make full use of your spear you also get a shield for another point.

This is just plain terrible game design, when you look at the basic logic of weapon design in Warhammer. Because the way GW have worked it, they've tried to make each weapon option more or less equal*, where the benefit of the weapon is balanced against the advantages. You can compare each against the spear and shield and see they come out more or less equal. Against the hand weapon and shield you get +1 AS either way, and so you are choosing between another rank of attacks or a parry save. Against extra hand weapons you get the same number of attacks unless you charged, and have to balance the +1 AS against getting that extra attack on the round you charged. Against the halberd you get either +1 St or +1 AS and an extra rank of attacks - here the balance is most critical, because +1 St is almost always better than an extra round of attacks, what makes the difference is that spears are only 1 handed... but you can only take advantage of that if you pay more points for the shield.

But GW forget all that when it comes to pricing spears and shields. They make you pay for the spear and the shield, forgetting that spear and shield is balanced against the other options, and shouldn't be twice as expensive.

Fix that, and spears will be fine. No need to add all these other rules about getting parry saves and extra ranks of attacks, or bonuses when charged, or bonuses against cavalry. Just charge the proper price.




*Great weapons being the most equal of all, but that's only because of 8th ed, where ASL is nowhere near the penalty it used to be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/30 09:11:33


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

If you want spears to be accurately modelled, give them ASF on turns where they are charged by cavalry. Let them use shields. Then give them ASL from turn two of combat.

Nite 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





That's...weird.
So first, spears can already be used with shields.
Second, spears aren't actually a slow weapon. ASL doesn't make sense to me.
Third, the reason that spearmen attack first when you charge into them is because spears are longer than most weapons. But so are lances, and two-handed swords, etc. But Warhammer doesn't really talk about any of that, for spears or anything else.
Fourth, I think that, more than spears attacking before the charging enemy, they strike harder. The momentum of your opponent's own charge works for you when you've got a spear. I think that, if anything, a bonus to Strength would be more accurate, and also more useful.

I think Sebster's got the right idea. Spears and shields are just as good as hand weapons and shields. Spears on their own are better than hand weapons on their own, but the shield offers a bigger benefit to the hand weapon than it does to spears.
So if you have a shield, you should be able to pick up spears for free.

 
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

Was forgetting they are one handed... Many of these arguments are really strong, but I would be loathe to improve anything which will make the new HE book more OP. As with shooting, army by army increment or another new HE book + a buff to spears / BS shooting would be the only reasonable answer.

Nite 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Niteware wrote:
Was forgetting they are one handed... Many of these arguments are really strong, but I would be loathe to improve anything which will make the new HE book more OP. As with shooting, army by army increment or another new HE book + a buff to spears / BS shooting would be the only reasonable answer.


Changing the points stucture doesn't impact High Elves, because the spear and shield units in the High Eld come with spear and shield automatically, they don't pay for the upgrades.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

 sebster wrote:
Niteware wrote:
Was forgetting they are one handed... Many of these arguments are really strong, but I would be loathe to improve anything which will make the new HE book more OP. As with shooting, army by army increment or another new HE book + a buff to spears / BS shooting would be the only reasonable answer.


Changing the points stucture doesn't impact High Elves, because the spear and shield units in the High Eld come with spear and shield automatically, they don't pay for the upgrades.


True - was more thinking about other bonuses like str. If they auto got shields hut only had extra str against cavlry / units with M6+, that would be balanced

Nite 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





And the single most complicated weapon-mechanic in the game.

 
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

I agree; I would get rid of the str bonus and give shields, but it kinda feels like it shiuld be there against cav

Nite 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





Only because they have the size and speed. Ogres are big, and pretty fast, too. A Wood Elf Alter Kindred character is M9 on foot. And then there's everything that can fly.

I agree that, logically, it makes perfect sense. Lances are like reverse spears, and they give a bonus to S.
There are two issues with implementing this in-game:

1. We'd have to re-price or even re-write a lot of stuff. As mentioned before: High Elves. But I'm not against that. I mean, we're speaking hypothetically here anyway, so why stop with easily implemented changes?

2. Here's my real concern: I think if you made spears better, you'd see a lot of armies with big blocks of spearmen, who sit there and wait for you to charge them. It's not active or dynamic, it's totally reactive, which might hurt the game.

I'm not saying that this is absolutely, totally what would happen, though. I mean, maybe then shooting would become more important as it forces your opponent to charge your spears, or forces your opponent's spear-blocks to charge you.

Right now, I'd say a point-adjustment is all we need. But I could get behind a (simple) overhaul on spears. As long as they stay relatively crap; they were used so much because they were not only effective, but also easy to make and use. They shouldn't be too much better than a sword and shield, and then only under specific conditions.

 
   
Made in gb
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight



Edinburgh, Scotland

I would argue that giving spearmen shields and taking away the S bonus would make them more likely to charge. They would effectively be handweapon troops that can fight in an extra rank, which seems pretty good as a bus troop rather than a horde.
I love seeing blocks of spearmen anyway - Hellcannon munches them.

Nite 
   
Made in us
Evasive Eshin Assassin





I...don't understand that first sentence at all.

I'm suggesting that we keep spear rules (Fight in Extra Ranks when they don't charge) as they currently are, with a readjustment to their cost.

I'm also saying that doing more than this would risk everyone fielding big blocks of spears and waiting for their opponent to do the charging.

So, to clarify: cheaper spears but otherwise as-is = good and balanced in my book. ASF/+S/etc. spears = we might have some problems.

 
   
 
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