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Hi guys !

I play CSM, and I have many problems with 2 of my friends who played DA in the strong way : usually only terminators, dread, Land Raider and bikes.

I can easilly deal with bikes, but I don't know how to kill 18 terminators Deep Striking on a beacon or charging from a Land raider.

On the last game (1500pts), he presents me :

- 1 dreadnought with 2 TL autocanon
- 6 Deathwing terminators, power fists and cyclon missile launcher
- 6 Deathwing terminators, power fists and cyclon missile launcher
- 1 darkshroud following his 5 bikes equiped with plasma talon
- 5 Deathwing terminators, with storm shields and thunderhammer, including Belial

My army list was :

- Kharn with 4 terminators in a Land Raider with Dirg Caster
- 5 terminators including Heavy flamer and Reaper autocanon
- 2 units of 5 Marines
- 5 Havocs with 4 autocanon
- Helldrake
- Forgefiend with 2 Ectoplasma canon
- predator with autocannon and 2 x Lascannon

What are my options to deal with a 1500pts army list including 18 terminators ?

So I play CSM and one of my friends plays DA, he plays a very fluffy list of all Deathwing Assault Terminators. Some in land raiders and some DSing. The best way to beat his terminators is with our OP HQs. Abaddon and Daemon Princes will take any group of terminators lunch money. I usually run Abby with 4 combi-plasma/powerfist MoT terminators in a land raider. They assault out, Abby is getting 5 attacks base with weapons, +2 for the rage charge, +2-6 more with his daemon weapon. That's 9-13 AP2 attacks at I6, you'll re-roll all your misses because of VoLW, and you'll re-roll failed to wound 1's, so you'll wound with 7-11 on average, he makes 2-3 saves and 5-8 terminators die before they do anything, and that's not counting using the combi-plasmas if needed and whatever you can kill with the land raider itself.

The Daemon Prince plays out nearly identically if you give him the Black Mace, he is I8, will land 6-9 wounds thanks to wounding on 2s. There is not enough shooting in a pure deathwing army to take down my flying daemon prince, so it just wrecks him with a black mace. FMCs are just wrecking balls against low model count armies. You just hop for one assault to the next and he rarely gets the chance to hit you since you are I8 with so many attacks.

And to be honest, I think I could run a three man squad of termies with Abby, I really only take them so I can challenge with the champ and let Abby crush the squad. Then you also have the other 2 bodies to eat any wounds caused by whoever is left and MoT gives them a 4++, its not a bad setup at all. I wind up using it in a lot of lists that I make and use it to crush the other guys major assault units, not much other than Necron Overlords with MSS can really slow Abby down, and again that's what you have the termie champ for. One round is usually all Abby needs to make minced meat of whoever he is facing.

Other than that I take lots of plague marine groups with double plasma guns, you still get FNP saves against his termies. And Oblits for plasma cannons, blast AP2 is great against deepstriking termies. One hit and you are wounding 5 out of his 6 guys, and 3-4 of those fail the save. 2 terminators in your back yard is a lot less scary than 6. You have a forgefiend, so camp that in the back to protect against his deep striking guys. I don't think that Kharn is a great HQ to take against his terminators, if you don't kill them all before they attack Kharn will die. He needs to be protected by a bunch of bodies to put the wounds on, and to kill the other guy first.

Also, just FYI, in a 5 man termie squad you can have either a heavy flamer or a reaper autocannon, but not both.

1500 points I would play this:

HQ
Abaddon 265
Chaos Lord, MoN, Terminator Armor, VoLW, 125

Elites
3 Chaos Terminators, 3 combi plasmas, 3 powerfists, MoT, and VoLW, attached Land Raider with Dirge Caster 395

Troops
5 Plague Marines, VoLW, 2 Plasma Guns 155
5 Plague Marines, VoLW, 2 Plasma Guns 155

Fast Attack
Heldrake, Baleflamer 170

Heavy Support
1 Obliterator, MoN 76
1 Obliterator, MoN 76
1 Obliterator, MoN 76

I explained the top options, lord unlocks the plague marines, heldrake kills his bikes and even the dread with its vector strike, and I like to keep my obliterators separate so I can choose to shoot at multiple targets if needed. You have to play them a little smarter so you don't give up first blood too easy, but T5, 2+/5++ makes them pretty hard to kill.

Those are my thoughts, hope they help.

Thanks for your post, very usefull !

I am agree that against DA I need to play it more "brutal". Abbadon is a very expensive unit, but I will try him on my next battle. Tzeentch mark is cool for the 4+ inv. save, but I also like to plasy Khorne guys for they +2 attacks on the charge.

I agree that "normals" space marines are useless against DA deathwing, so I will also try the Plagues marines on my next game. HAve never played too, but that right that storm bolter are only 24" range, so just to keep the obliterators moving and shooting at him with low AP weapons.

Thanks again for your advices !