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 MLaw wrote:
I also think it's kinda sad that we're all hanging out here finding little things to flip out over

I'm just here because it's the lull period between BotCon and SDCC.

 insaniak wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh and this:

"Their Reforging took place as the Broken World spun under a magical gloom."

What?

I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.

I can imagine Tom Kirby explaining this concept to the board.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Can the Sigmarites take a Dreadnought and do their Landraiders have special variants?

Well, so far we do know that they have Chaplains, skull-helmet and all!

(This is not a joke)

Somehow I'm surprised that they weren't called Angels of Sigmar or UltraSigmarites or somesuch.

Again.. I'm okay with them.. I'll probably use them for some RPG stuff or conversions but it really is pure lulz that they made fantasy Space Marines and didn't even try to hide it a little. I also think it's kinda sad that we're all hanging out here finding little things to flip out over

Yeah, as it's been said before, it's like watching an insane car crash, going on for multiple days and getting worse and worse every moment!

Only Sigmar himself knows their true number, eh.

Is it... roughly 1 million divided into 1000 man chunks?

I can't wait till Negash shows up with his Negcrons.

Neronoxx wrote:
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?

Like this. See? A dragon with personality. With character.

My only regret with playing 8th is not having a way to make Sigmarines an army without custom rules.

I really like the idea of converted GK sigmarines.

 AlexHolker wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?

Like this. See? A dragon with personality. With character.

I was thinking more along the lines of a certain dragon voiced by Sir Sean Connery.

that was awesome, Accolade...
and yet, somehow, everybody went for it...

i wonder how many studio guys quit their jobs over this???
did everyone just say, "yes, sir, you are awesome, sir....grumblegrumblegrumble...", or did someone flip a table and walk out, pulling at their hair mumbling something about, "Bloodsecrators??? really???"...

inquiring minds want to know...

cheers
jah

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
Only Sigmar himself knows their true number, eh.

I can't wait till Negash shows up with his Negcrons.

Maybe that's why we can take as many as we want per unit.

Neronoxx wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

guru wrote:
another from /tg

oO...

I think I just threw up. A lot.
Now they're blatantly ripping off chapters, only they have these vague and meaningless histories in a poor attempt to give them a rich history and depth.
"Their reforging took place as the broken world span under a magical gloom."
What the heck is that supposed to mean? How is someone supposed to latch onto that and say "Yeah! I can totally relate to that. That's awesome!"

Edit. I like how the grey ones sound kind of like Grey Knights.

Oh yeah, because different sub-factions within an army is sooooo totally specific to Space Marines, and that hasn't been done in Fantasy EVER before.... certainly not in skaven, high elves, empire, etc.....
Seriously though, this is more of a pattern of Games Workshop as a whole rather than a cut and paste of "da spess mehreens."
And Fantasy isn't supposed to wholly relatable. Just look at most archetypal fantasy stories. You'll find plenty that's unrelatable. Like dragons. How the feth do you relate to dragons?
And the knights-being immune to spells thing is old. Like really old. Seriously.
Not to pick on you mate, but you sound new, and posteriorly pained. Just because you don't like it, or can't wrap your head around the idea, doesn't mean its bad. It means it's not for you.
I don't like apple pie. You don't see my screaming about how nasty it is and how it's a copy of blueberry pie. Voicing your opinion is one thing however, and i respect that you dislike the direction GW has gone with their Stormcast Eternals.

The grey (hallowed) knights have the same fething properties as the Grey Knights. That has to be an intentional reference (which is fine, usually like those, they are just being a little blatant about it).We haven't seen everything yet and it could still be an interesting setting, but pretending the stormcast eternals are not a massive space marine copy is disingenuous.

I do agree with you that overall it's more of a gw thing (i mean all the books have this section now), and i think it sounds more ridiculous in this instance because we don't have the proper context. We basically know very little of the overall fluff, maybe those blurbs would be more evocative if we did.

I.e gnarlwood etc might be an interesting place.

Now that most of the stuffs leaked I think I might as well put in my opinion. I'm of 2 minds with this new world, as my Skaven arent mentioned too much and hordes haven't been mentioned too much, but I'm cautiously optimistic. The fact that the rules are free is good for me, seeing as I started fantasy with the Thanquol release, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the new system works. However, I'm not too happy to see the Skaven made into just another part of chaos, because now they're little more than teched out beastmen in rat form. The fact that I won't have to rebase my old army is also good, because I have around 100 clanrats and 30 stormvermin just in core.

 jah-joshua wrote:
that was awesome, Accolade...
and yet, somehow, everybody went for it...

i wonder how many studio guys quit their jobs over this???
did everyone just say, "yes, sir, you are awesome, sir....grumblegrumblegrumble...", or did someone flip a table and walk out, pulling at their hair mumbling something about, "Bloodsecrators??? really???"...

inquiring minds want to know...

cheers
jah

There's been rumors that there has been significant dissent over this in GW. I can imagine a lot of designers would be unhappy that they're ditching all of the fluff for some copyright protection. I definitely feel for any of the designers still loyal to the universe having to deal with this.

I don't necessary hate the Sigmarines (although I can't understand people pretending that's not what they are), I think the models are decent, and I like the idea of a simplified ruleset that is much cheaper. But everything else feels completely awful.

On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.

There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm very sad none of these hint at a specific Stormhost that's made purely of White Wolf champions in honor of the (presumably deceased) god Sigmar himself worshiped above others whilst he was still mortal.

That would have been cool. Hopefully they will do some of that when they re-introduce the older models.

 insaniak wrote:
On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.

There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.

From my own opinion, what I enjoyed about Fantasy was that there wasn't this ultimate good faction.

From a fluff perspective, it made the world feel much more desperate, as the worst of the worst stuff came from the forces of Chaos. Good Elves exist, but they're mainly about themselves.

From a game perspective, it feels like 80% of WH-AOS games will consist of Sigmarites vs. some other faction (probably again Sigmarites). It's one of my biggest issues with 40k and was nice that Fantasy was different in that regard.

Again, I don't really hate Sigmarines or the models, I just wish they could have explored a different concept rather than bumping things into their other game. Well, at this point, GW might as well re-introduce Squats!

i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...

when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...

for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...

when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...

for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...

cheers
jah

I agree with you 100%, sadly though, we're on Dakkadakka, where the majority of rumormongers and forum trolls dwell and feast upon any negativity that they can get.

Call me wishful, but I am with the other camp of retailers on this one...

There is going to be a balanced way to play this game.
They do not look like Space Marines.
There is still going to be a form of Warhammer Fantasy battles 9th coming.

I will wait until the release to make any further assumptions.

GW's idea of "balance" is rancid enough WITH points.

But 20 cave goblins is apparently equal to twenty ogres now.

I don't play WHFB but the idea of picking up a box of Ogres or throwing the daemons on the board to try it out sounds good.

Personally, I think the Sigmarines look stupid. But then again, a lot of the early 40k lore was pretty dumb too.

If I said that GW would release free rules covering all of the models in their game system, in addition to a simplified rule set, I would have been laughed off this forum. Guess who's had the last laugh?

At least the rules are a free download! Let's see what kind of broken, easily exploitable mess of a game GW cranks out!

 insaniak wrote:
On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.

There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.

They already had armoured knights with rich heraldry and history in WHFB though. Those were the space marines translated in to fantasy terms (well vice versa in actuality, space marines were an attempt to ape the knightly aesthetics in a sci-fi setting).

But that isn't what bugged me about Sigmahreens. I admit that in another reality the angelic warhost of Sigmar would be bad ass. Hell even the whole celestial war setup could be cool.

But the Sigmahreens are just so hackneyed in their execution. They stink of being the minimum amount of effort to evoke the feeling of space marines. They don't even bother changing the insignia, let alone at least changing the colour-scheme of the heraldry on any of them (only the !Grey Knights change the hammer's colour itself). And the little background blurbs are the worst kind of throwaway one-shot nonsense background references while also directly copying various current space marine chapters.

At this point in the company's life cycle it just feels like a blatant, artless cash-in and nothing more.

I repeat, this idea could have been fantastic. An armoured host of angelic beings descending from the heavens in the old world's hour of need to beat back the darkness. That is a cool image to evoke while also having thematic ties to 40k's own Angels of Death. But GW just kind of went with the whole thing in the laziest possible way and it is hard not to see it as a tone-deaf money-grab.

Space Marines had a good long time to build up their aesthetics, their history, and their feel. Sigmahreens feel like cheap knock-offs that don't seem to understand why folks actually like space marines.

But you are right, there is so much more to complain about here. But the Sigmahreens are also a really good visual shorthand for just how bad this whole thing is shaping up to be. This is literally what everyone who loved WHFB never wanted, what everyone said GW would never stoop to. This is GW 40k-ifying WHFB instead of doing actual market research and the inward searching required to find out why WHFB was actually failing in the first place.

This whole thing is terrible, and the Sigmahreens are the most immediately visible and deeply visceral manifestation of that terribleness.

 jah-joshua wrote:

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...

They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.

insaniak wrote:I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.

laughed so loud I woke my dog up.

insaniak wrote:On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.

There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.

For a LONG time GW has been trying (somewhat weakly, admittedly) to separate fantasy and 40k. The introduction of the Tau, as much as I dislike them, was a great step in that direction. The tau really have no WHFB analogue. The squatting of the ... well, squats. The Tyranids. Even Oldcrons, metallic robotic servants of the C'Tan.

Then we got Newcrons, literal Tomb Kings in space, complete with warring Tomb Lords and such. Okay, they wanted to change the fluff up, whatever, Necron fluff always kinda felt shoe-horned in everywhere anyway...

But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.

I mean, this is just blatant. I'm convinced that anyone that "can't see it" is being purposefully obtuse. You have a bunch of dudes, reforged by a god-like man into elite warriors clad in basically magic armor from head to toe. They wield thunder lightning hammers, have chaptershosts that are complete thematic rips of Space Marine chapters.

Let me be clear: I don't care that they've done it. It's their IPs, they're welcome to rip their own stuff. That doesn't make it somehow not ridiculous.

 insaniak wrote:
I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.

Well, when you put it that way it makes total sense. How did I miss that?

 streamdragon wrote:

insaniak wrote:I don't get the problem with this. Clearly, as the gloaming of the moon stole betwixt the blengent parralax, Sigmar smote asunder the revenant asturmine with a pungent manner, and amongst the reforged beans of the manifold Destinomotron the pools of novistation took hold.

laughed so loud I woke my dog up.

insaniak wrote:On reflection, the complaints about the Sigmarines seem a little odd... The connected-but-not-really-ness of WHFB and 40K has always been one of the fun things about GW's games. When the Hrud were first hinted at, everyone went 'Yay! Space Skaven!'. Nobody had an issue with Space Ogres, or Space Minotaurs, or Space Beastment, or Space Slann, or Space Elves... But the moment something goes in the other direction we're all (and yes, I included myself there) losing our minds over it.

There are certainly a lot of things to complain about with the direction that GW have chosen to take Warhammer Fantasy... but I can't help but think that the introduction of Space Marines isn't really one of them.

For a LONG time GW has been trying (somewhat weakly, admittedly) to separate fantasy and 40k. The introduction of the Tau, as much as I dislike them, was a great step in that direction. The tau really have no WHFB analogue. The squatting of the ... well, squats. The Tyranids. Even Oldcrons, metallic robotic servants of the C'Tan.

Then we got Newcrons, literal Tomb Kings in space, complete with warring Tomb Lords and such. Okay, they wanted to change the fluff up, whatever, Necron fluff always kinda felt shoe-horned in everywhere anyway...

But this? One of the best parts of WHFB is that you didn't have that shining beacon faction. Even the "good" factions had their flaws. The Empire wasn't exactly a shining beacon, and even the Holier Than Most Brettonians had plenty of "we give 0 craps about peasants" to offset having a literal faith shield.

I mean, this is just blatant. I'm convinced that anyone that "can't see it" is being purposefully obtuse. You have a bunch of dudes, reforged by a god-like man into elite warriors clad in basically magic armor from head to toe. They wield thunder lightning hammers, have chaptershosts that are complete thematic rips of Space Marine chapters.

Let me be clear: I don't care that they've done it. It's their IPs, they're welcome to rip their own stuff. That doesn't make it somehow not ridiculous.

Are you implying that 40k has a pure good factions? o.O

From what I gathered, they all looked pretty bad to me!

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:
Are you implying that 40k has a pure good factions? o.O

No, he was saying that there are two (separate) issues with the Sigmarines - one being that they look like Space Marines, and the other (unrelated to the first) issue being that they add a 'shining light' faction to a setting that has previously been fairly dimly lit in varying shades of grey.

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:
i haven't really commented on that aspect yet, Accolade, but i am very much a purist when it comes to models...
i will not try to change the minds of people who say that this is GW trying to port a Space Marine-like faction into Fantasy, but to me these models do not look like Space Marines...
there is enough difference in the sculpts, that they look like Fantasy models to my eye...

when people use the WFB Chaos warriors for 40k conversions, it looks really strange to my eye, because the segmented leg armour doesn't match the futuristic look of the Marine armor...
the lack of little access panels, rounded toe-caps, and little power cables really stand-out...
when someone takes the awesome Khorne Lord on Jugger, and slaps a Chaos Marine backpack on it, it still looks like a fantasy model to me...

for true-scale, when someone uses Termis legs, but doesn't fill in the recessed areas on the legs, it doesn't look like a true-scale Marine to me, but a strange mash-up...
yet the flat panels on the Tartarus Termies port over perfectly into a true-scale power armor...

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...
i certainly would never paint them as Marines, because the armor is all wrong...
i would happily paint them as the factions they are intended to represent though...
the armor is pretty cool, in my opinion...
i like the bulk, especially as they are basically Avatars of Sigmar...

cheers
jah

I agree with you 100%, sadly though, we're on Dakkadakka, where the majority of rumormongers and forum trolls dwell and feast upon any negativity that they can get.

Call me wishful, but I am with the other camp of retailers on this one...

There is going to be a balanced way to play this game.
They do not look like Space Marines.
There is still going to be a form of Warhammer Fantasy battles 9th coming.

I will wait until the release to make any further assumptions.

I fully expect you to be wrong, but sincerely hope you are right.

Sigmarines do look like space marines though. Even if there are tiny differences, there are many visual themes present in both.




Wider at the bottom megaman-armor boots, though this is admittedly reduced in the calf portions of Sigmarines, the large circular-style knee joint remains.
Large stylized shoulder pads with chapter insignia.
The same vertically aligned iron halo, though the number of points are different.
Segmented breast-plate, with a recessed abdominal section.
Rounded off knuckle to forearm over-plate located on top of gauntlets.

To further point out similarities, you could notice the number of places where they are both unlike traditional plate armor.

Exaggerated neckline.
Non-beaver'd helmet.
Form fitted chest piece, as opposed to ballooned area to cushion bludgeoning impact.
Exaggerated leg portions, as opposed to skinnier and lighter weight dimensions.
Shoulder heraldry, as opposed to shield heraldry.
Purity seals and holy inscription banners.




Given the above obvious design asthetic, I simply cannot fathom how anyone says they are dissimilar.

 insaniak wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...

They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.

It's more than just "more than human" fluff... The human god emperor's (duh..) first revealed elite warriors festooned with hammer and lightning motifs (just like thunder warriors) saved from a dying world (most space marines are recruited from death worlds) who are given great strength and the finest heavy plate armor (duh...) and who gifted by the emperor with a sort of eternal life to be reborn after dying (geneseed) and who travel the various realms (worlds) through magical gates (warp rifts) guided by the emperor (astronomicon) to do battle with their mortal enemies, heavily armored chaos warriors.

There have been a number of comments that GW did their market research, and they know who/what/when this stuff will appeal to.

Perhaps things have changed significantly in the last few years.

But I doubt it.

There is NO research needed.
The Studio KNOWS what players/collectors want.
Because they ARE players/collectors.

At least that is what it USED to be.

The LAST thing the Studio did was seek opinions elsewhere.
They would not bother doing any sort of modern market research because the CULTURE of the company is NOT WIRED to seek outside opinion.

It is akin to a monastery, cloistered away issuing dictates to the dirty gaming masses.

But I think the peasants have had enough judging by the results of their labor.

Done and dusted.

Predict that GW will be 40K only in 3 years based on this.

All good things must end.

Does nobody see the bloody Chaplain?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!

RacerX wrote:
There is NO research needed.
The Studio KNOWS what players/collectors want.
Because they ARE players/collectors.

You seem to be assuming that the studio guys are the ones making the decisions about what GW releases...

At least that is what it USED to be.

Yes, once upon a time, it probably was.

GW's recent activities however show that these days, the decisions are all being made by the accountants and the legal department. The studio are (I would expect) just making what they're told to make.

 insaniak wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

so yeah, i see that GW is trying to capitalize on the popularity of Space Marines, but these models do not look like Marines to me...

They're certainly not identical to Marines, but the design aesthetic is similar in enough ways to see them as a fantasy version of Space Marines, particularly given the 'more than human' fluff backing them up.

Or take it like it is, a blatant warriors of valhalla ripped from history, with sigmar as odin.