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How do you beat Eldar Wave Serpent spam with CSM?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Ellenton, Florida

Alright.

I have an upcoming game at 1850 pts vs a friend who wants to use a highly competitive wave serpent spam/warp spider list, which he wants to try out for a tournament.

I run strict CSM with no allies.

I also run mono-god builds (Thousand Sons or Death Guard.) These have actually been very successful for me so far, but I have not yet faced this sort of foe.

If need be, I also have Orks. I just don't know that they would fare any better, although I am open to suggestions.

This seems like a pretty tough match-up to me.

Has anyone here faced (and preferably defeated) this sort of Eldar list before?

Any help would be appreciated.

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Made in gb






Scotland

Against Wave Serpent Wall, the game will usually revolve on when the Eldar player decides to drop his shields and if the opponent can capitalise on this quickly enough.

I tend to find that a CSM + Daemons list can pose a good threat to Wave Serpents if the Daemons are made up of Tzeentchian elements to spam Divination. Obviously the powers that you get are what makes the difference but Prescience, Misfortune and Perfect Timing are golden, and a ML3 Tzeentchian herald with triple Divination has a good chance of getting at least two of those. You will most likely struggle without allies.

As for the CSM portion, unusually, Forgefiends + Prescience will work wonders with those Autocannons. Against Serpents, it's a game of stripping away those hullpoints, and an average of 6 S8 hits on an AV12 vehicle should reduce 1-2 HPs minimum.

MoN Oblits are always a solid choice, especially when Deep Striking behind the tanks for rear-armour - which should negate the shield.

Autocannon Havocs w/ the Fearless Banner (to avoid Pinning from the shields) could work too.

Main point here is to keep shooting one until it dies. Don't spread your shots, concentrate it on one tank at a time. Don't let the Eldar player tempt you with squishy things like Guardians etc. until you are confident that the Serpents have been neutralised to an extent where they are more of an annoyance than a threat.

Iranna.


~Death is Only the Beginning. 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Ellenton, Florida

Thanks, Iranna.

That is a possibility.

I have been avoiding the use of allies thus far, but I suppose that may be a rather outdated way of thinking.

I have recently considered adding an allied Herald w/pink horrors to my 1000 sons list just for the Divination powers. Seems almost too good to pass up since Prescience is pretty much a given.

I don't know that deep striking behind the serpents is a viable option. In his enthusiasm, my opponent revealed that he simply sits the Serpents all the way in the backfield and lets the Warp Spiders do all the dirty work on the enemy's side of the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 14:19:17


Armies:  
   
Made in my
Regular Dakkanaut





Its going to be very very very tough battle for you no matter what Chaos God you are using. I know this cuz I have both armies, & so far my Serpents-Hunters list has 4-0 track record against opponents' CSM.

My advise is to counter spam on things that negate cover svs i.e Helldrakes. Forget about the opponent accusing you for being cheezy with 3 Helldrakes, cuz you know what, bringing 7 Eldar Grav-tanks + 3 flyers or 15+ Spiders @ 1850pts are even worse.

My current builds for CSM @ 1850pts are:-
CSM-Daemons List (1)
Huron
3 x 10 Cultists
3 x Helldrakes: 2 Hades Autocannon & 1 Baleflamer
8 x MoN Obliterators
Bloodthirster
1 x 10 Plaguebearers

CSM-Daemons List (2)
MoK DP: Wings, P-Armor, Mutation, AoBF
MOK DP: Wings, P-Armor, Mutation, Black Mace
2 x 10 Cultists
3 x Heldrakes: 2 Hades Autocannon, 1 Baleflamer
Bloodthirster: 1 Exalted & 1 Greater Rewards
1 x 13 Bloodletters
MoK DP: Wings, Armor, 2 Greater & 1 Lesser Rewards

Not sure whether these can handle the Eldar..hope to get to go 1st & pray that I'd be able to call all my flyer-reserves asap. Good luck on your game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 14:54:53


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Chicago, IL

 Chaos Legionnaire wrote:
Alright.

I have an upcoming game at 1850 pts vs a friend who wants to use a highly competitive wave serpent spam/warp spider list, which he wants to try out for a tournament.

I run strict CSM with no allies.

I also run mono-god builds (Thousand Sons or Death Guard.) These have actually been very successful for me so far, but I have not yet faced this sort of foe.

If need be, I also have Orks. I just don't know that they would fare any better, although I am open to suggestions.

This seems like a pretty tough match-up to me.

Has anyone here faced (and preferably defeated) this sort of Eldar list before?

Any help would be appreciated.


As an Eldar player, I think the best way to beat this strategy is by playing smart and letting them come to you. With their obvious speed, they are going to dictate when and where the battles typically happen - this is usually unavoidable. I would deploy a "deny the flank strategy" deploying your army in 1/4 of the board with meatshields (cultists and such) lining up the deployment zone (almost in an L fashion). What this basically does is allow you to choose which units the eldar player will engage first and provide your more important units with covers saves behind them. By cornering yourself in 1/4 of the board, the Eldar player's mobility is limited and you deny him the ability to take apart your army piece-meal. I would just sit tight and take 2 turns trying to focus down 1-2 serpents if possible and then just prepare for your counter attack. Have 1 or 2 deep strike units in reserve to try and get behind the serpents when they come and to take objectives after turn 4. Your most difficult job will be trying to win the mission objectives, since you are limited in your table corner.

Try to use his aggressiveness against him. Try to identify the wave serpent carrying the cargo that is most damaging to your army and take that down before it can get to you. Make sure when the other WSs come down, that you provide cheap targets for them to take out first. Prepare your counter units to take care of the cargo and heavy weapons to focus fire WSs down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/13 15:44:33


The more I practice, the luckier I get. 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Ellenton, Florida

First of all, thanks to everyone for all of the advice. You have given me a lot to think about.

Having said that, I was considering an idea which is so crazy and unexpected (unless my opponent reads this) that it just might work.

On the other hand, it could conceivably fail horribly. Please advise, As i don't know exactly how much Dakka these wave serpents actually put out.

HQ : Ahriman - selected for his infiltrate trait, plus level 4 means decent chance of Endurance(for the Feel No Pain.)

Troops : 4 x 14 Thousand Sons. Sorcerers have staves and melta bombs.

Tactic: Since he intends to invest so many points into having more serpents than I can handle, leaving little room for much else, ignore the serpents.

Infiltrate Thousand Sons onto objectives. Units which cannot infiltrate hold home objectives. Ahriman casts Endurance on units as needed. Units spread out to prevent contesting. Should opponent attempt to contest via tank shock, hit them with the melta bombs.

What say you Dakka?

Cunning plan?

Or


Armies:  
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

I'm worried that he would just focus all of that S6 firepower into killing your expensive troops who can't really hurt him back.
   
Made in gb






Scotland

This is what I'd run at 1850pts with the intention of countering Serpent-Spam Eldar.

1. Chaos Sorcerer -170pts.
w/ ML3, MoN, Bike.

2. Chaos Lord - 175pts.
w/ MoN, Sigil, BBoS, Power Axe, Blight Grenades, Bike.

3. Plague Marine Squad - 198pts.
w/ 7 x Members, 2 x Plasma Guns.

4. Plague Marine Squad - 198pts.
w/ 7 x Members, 2 x Plasma Guns.

5. Chaos Cultist Squad - 130pts.
w/ 30 x Members.

6. Chaos Cultist Squad - 58pts.
w/ 12 x Members.

7. Chaos Spawn Squad - 180pts.
w/ 5 x Members, MoN.

8. Chaos Bike Squad - 186pts.
w/ 6 x Members, 2 x Meltaguns, MoN.

9. Forgefiend - 175pts.

10. Forgefiend - 175pts.

11. Herald of Tzeentch - 150pts.
w/ E. Reward, ML3, E.Locus of Conjuration.

12. Horror Squad - 153pts.
w/ 17 x Members.

Total = 1848pts.

This list should give Serpent Spam a run for its money: It has very durable units - most being T5, T6, having a ++or FnP save or a combination of both. The Lord rocks with the Spawn Whilst the Sorc runs with the bikes (hoping to get Endurance).

The big cultist blob should be used to screen your most important units in the first turn. If the Eldar player goes first, have the Lord join the Cultist blob to make them Fearless and then slingshot him into the Spawn Squad in your turn. The smaller squad should be reserved.

Plague Marines should advance to mid-field and stay there.

Forgefiends should be supported w/ Prescience + the Grimoire, Advancing to the middile.

Horrors should advance to the middle and, if they have Perfect Timing, are a great answer to glancing those Serpents to death in one volley.

Control the mid-field and you can control the game by forcing the Eldar player to come to you, into the range of your guns. Whilst he is forced to dodge your Spawn + Bikers by either coming into range of your guns or putting you out of range of the majority of his.

Good luck,

Iranna.

~Death is Only the Beginning. 
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Omaha, NE

Iranna -- great advise!!

Now stop it!!

just kidding..

I play eldar and the comments so far have been right on the money..you just gotta concentrate firepower until one serpent is gone then move on to the next one.

-3500+
-1850+
-2500+
-3500+
--3500+ 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Resident Ethicist




Champaign, IL

wannabmoy wrote:With their obvious speed, they are going to dictate when and where the battles typically happen - this is usually unavoidable.

I'll take the other side of this, actually. With CSM's withering close combat ability and ability to put down a lot of durability, it's the CSM player who is going to dominate field position. If the CSM player sets up a couple of 20-man PM squads on two objectives, they are going to have those two objectives. It doesn't matter how fast eldar are if the only place they can go with that speed is away from the objectives, lest they get caught in bolter/meltagun/close combat range.

Against someone who knows what field position means, the only thing eldar mobility gives the eldar player is the ability to concentrate their killing power better. CSM can take some pretty darn tough units, though.

In this case, if you take Huron and PMs, you can start the game by infiltrating onto objectives and then just sit there and laugh as shuriken weapons try to dig T5 FNP models out of cover. Have any decent ability to snag first blood, and it won't be that difficult to force a draw on most games either and then go for secondaries.

I could imagine it being a rather frustrating thing for an eldar player to face off against.



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Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




Ellenton, Florida

Thanks again everyone.

Once again, I am not familiar with the weaponry on the wave serpents, but it sounds as though the invulnerable saves of the 1k sons is significantly less effective/ necessary than the toughness of plague marines.

@Ailaros: this list sounds pretty much like the Nurgle variation of what I was considering with my 1000sons. I concur that Death Gaurd will be significantly more effective.

@Iranna: I definitely like a lot of these ideas. I do have a problem allying Tzeentch with Nurgle, though. It looks like I will be going with Nurgle, and using the extra points for oblits and more plague marines. I believe my final list will be a hybrid of yours and the ideas from Ailaros.

Thanks again for all the advice. You have been very helpful.

Armies:  
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Wind Serpents are typically sporting 6-7 S6 shots with AP5 or worse. That means they are good at forcing armor saves and killing light armor.
   
 
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