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So, I'm constructing an Iron Hands gunline army. I'm going to keep it small. (1500 points is the absolute max, I'd like to keep it confined to 1000-1250.)

Here's what I'm thinking: Aegis Defense Line. Master of the Forge (probably with a bike, maybe or maybe not with a beamer). A single thunderfire cannon. Then dreadnought saturation. 4-5 dreads, arranged in a delightful firing line behind the aegis. Between the cover save, It Will Not Die, and the HQ's ability to patch his own men up, it could be a very survivable list.

Couple of ground rules, though, since I've noticed among threads like my own, Ailaros's, and really every thread I've ever seen on the Tactics forum, that these threads have a tendency to get off topic pretty quick.

What this thread IS NOT.

A discussion of how hull points have made vehicles unviable.
Discussing whether or not to take dreadnoughts.

What this thread IS.

A discussion on what weapons to outfit the dreadnoughts with in this scenario.
A discussion of how many dreads to squeeze into the list.
A discussion of what role the Master of the Forge (and Techmarines, if any) should play in this list.
A discussion of how to handle flyers with this build.
A discussion about what role troops should play (and what form they should take) in this list.

So, what do you guys think? Personally, I'm against the dual autocannon build, since I've never seen it perform adequately in the field.

Has anyone done Tl-Las+Autocannon Dread? May be worth a look I think as dual guns seem to be optimal for a gunline and the missile is rubbish for just five points difference.

I would go with the Conversion beamer upgrade for added firepower, and add in tech marines to do more with the healing. Number of Dreads... Well three or four seem optimal, with four showing off how nice it is to have that Master of the Forge.

Troops seem to me it would be good to have a mix of infiltrating sniper scouts to claim home field objectives, a squad or two, Then use drop pod tacs for surgical strikes.

Flyers... Honestly it depends on how you want to go. I think Stormnouns would be cool with It Will Not Die and shore up for some Flyer defense, but I cannot remember if the Iron Hands would use them.

It would be worth noting this is merely the opinion of someone who glanced over the codex, not someone who plays with or against the army (regularly).

The options you have, as i see it, for ranged dreads.

Heavy bolter and Missile launcher. Anti horde/infantry
Lascannon and Missile Launcher. Anti Tank
Dual autocannons, Anti light tank and anti infantry

The problem is, lack of ap1/2, this is due to only being able to have one ap2 weapon on each dread, so its either small blast plasma cannon, Multimelta or lascannon, plasma cannon is the best for 2+ infantry but no good against flyers and only str7 against tanks. Multi metla is too short range and one shot only, lascannon is the highest str and good range no good against 2+ infantry but good against flyers tanks and riptides and the like.

It may be a survivable list against some but it just doenst kick out enouigh firepower IMO to do any good

The flyer problem is easily handled with the inclusion of a stalker/hunter, and the quad-gun that will be on your Aegis.

The problem, i'd say, is that dreads don't actually put out all that much firepower for what you pay. Any you'd probably want to eat up your HS choices with tanks before dreads.
Give your tactical squad razorbacks to get some more armour dakka. Some scouts with snipers/cloaks to sit behind the aegis, score and snipe MC's.
I'd say maybe a single additional techmarine ontop of the MOTF would be sufficient. That gives you 3 peices of terrain bolstered, and two repairmen. Don't forget that conversion beamer on the MoTF.

Troops should likely be Combat squaded tacticals with razorbacks/rhinos. ML/Flamer? Keep them cheap.

I'd imagine you want venerable dreads, to avoid that lucky explosion that might happen. I think MM/ML is a good setup for them, take advantage of that BS5.

I would be really tempted to get a Godhammer LR. The big box gives you a great LOS blocker to put your repairmen behind, and Av14 with a coversave is pretty trollworthy.

I can't see a list like this putting out the amount of firepower that other gunlines can. IG would tear most of this list apart if they have a manticore or two. S9 barrage will ignore your cover and glance everything down very quickly. But at least your army will look cool and be fluffy while being destoryed.

So here's my thinking on it: The dreads would probably be focused more on enemy infantry, enemy flyers, and enemy toughnuts, since the TFC can probably dish out more damage to the troops than any of the dreads. (Perhaps another TFC, or a horde-focused dread would be a good addition.) The remaining dreads, though, could probably do more damage with higher-strength and lower-AP weapons. For that reason, I lean more towards the ML for the 'off-hand' (brr-UM-BUMP) weapon. The only advantages the autocannon has over it are a second shot, and twin-linking. Not sure if that's going to be worth it, given the probably focus of the majority of the dreads.

Infiltrating scouts might actually be a good idea, especially since I'm getting more than one Bolster Defenses. Good call on that. I've also thought about putting scouts in Land Speeder Storms, since those would benefit from It Will Not Die as well.

I'm loathe to pick up the smaller Stormnoun, not so much out of an aversion to its rules, but its look. Think is one of the worst models in the game. The other one, the bigger one, is much cooler, and could definitely be worth a second look.

In that case the Lascannon/Missile Dread seems like what you want. Though not really great at infantry, perhaps two assault cannon/missile dreads and two lascannon/missile dreads? That gives you two who can help out against Infrantry, but also aren't the worst against vehicles and toughnits, but also two more built for super bigs, flyers, and MCs.

Forgot about the Bolster, yeah Scouts seem even better in that case.

With the Stormraven I really feel its better when something is inside of it.

Belly wrote:
The flyer problem is easily handled with the inclusion of a stalker/hunter, and the quad-gun that will be on your Aegis.

The problem, i'd say, is that dreads don't actually put out all that much firepower for what you pay. Any you'd probably want to eat up your HS choices with tanks before dreads.
Give your tactical squad razorbacks to get some more armour dakka. Some scouts with snipers/cloaks to sit behind the aegis, score and snipe MC's.
I'd say maybe a single additional techmarine ontop of the MOTF would be sufficient. That gives you 3 peices of terrain bolstered, and two repairmen. Don't forget that conversion beamer on the MoTF.

Troops should likely be Combat squaded tacticals with razorbacks/rhinos. ML/Flamer? Keep them cheap.

I'd imagine you want venerable dreads, to avoid that lucky explosion that might happen. I think MM/ML is a good setup for them, take advantage of that BS5.

I would be really tempted to get a Godhammer LR. The big box gives you a great LOS blocker to put your repairmen behind, and Av14 with a coversave is pretty trollworthy.

I can't see a list like this putting out the amount of firepower that other gunlines can. IG would tear most of this list apart if they have a manticore or two. S9 barrage will ignore your cover and glance everything down very quickly. But at least your army will look cool and be fluffy while being destoryed.

You make a good point with the barrage weapons, and I think that clever deployment can work wonders there. Forked placement of an Aegis line can help to make it more likely I'll get cover saves even from barrage weapons, and of course those vehicles would be high on target priority lists. (Along with Pathfinders.)

I agree with the general opinion that this list lacks the amount of firepower as other lists. The operating theory is that, given the prevalence of gunlines, it has more survivability than those other lists, and can take far more firepower than those other lists can and still keep coming back for more.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Infiltrating scouts might actually be a good idea, especially since I'm getting more than one Bolster Defenses. Good call on that. I've also thought about putting scouts in Land Speeder Storms, since those would benefit from It Will Not Die as well.

2HP Av10 open-topped? It certainly will die, i'd be impressed if the chapter tactics ever really worked out for you on these.

But yeah, ruins+bolster+camo= 2+ coversave without going to ground. And they they get a 6+ FNP.

Have you considered a DA libby with a Power field generator? You can then just get the scouts from your DA detachment, and have an invulnerable bubble that can hand out prescience to something that needs it. Also gives you another Elites/HS choice if you want it (sans Chapter Tactics of course).

Belly wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Infiltrating scouts might actually be a good idea, especially since I'm getting more than one Bolster Defenses. Good call on that. I've also thought about putting scouts in Land Speeder Storms, since those would benefit from It Will Not Die as well.

2HP Av10 open-topped? It certainly will die, i'd be impressed if the chapter tactics ever really worked out for you on these.

But yeah, ruins+bolster+camo= 2+ coversave without going to ground. And they they get a 6+ FNP.

Have you considered a DA libby with a Power field generator? You can then just get the scouts from your DA detachment, and have an invulnerable bubble that can hand out prescience to something that needs it. Also gives you another Elites/HS choice if you want it (sans Chapter Tactics of course).

I had not. I don't own a DA codex, but I will certainly look into it. Thanks for pointing it out! And honestly, I'd be just as surprised as you if the Speeder got any benefit from IWND. Far more realistically, I thought they could hide and zip around late game to claim objectives.

No problem, I have all these good ideas as i'd been looking into an IH drop-pod dread army.
5 Dreads, 9 drop-pods

Honestly, that was my first thought, but I thought that long range weapons and the Aegis would increase my survivability exponentially. Still, 5 MM/HF dreads out of pods would be pretty damn sick.

I tried Ven Dreads with Dual Autocannons.

Was quite good at popping transports and light vehicles and has a near 100% to hit roll.

Not too expensive and doesn't die easy.

Hmmm. Autocannons are one of my bugaboos. I've never personally seen autocannons perform well. They lack the strength or AP to really threaten big vehicles, and they don't have the high fire rate or low AP to be a danger to infantry. They're not off the table, but I would really want to see more performance out of them on the table before I actually committed to a whole gunline of them.

That does bring up one of my questions, though. Venerable upgrade: worth it? Rerolls on the damage table, plus an extra WS and BS? Seems like a good choice, but what do you guys think?

When I tested an IH army, the Venerable Dread was consistently good.

I tried dropping them with MM, Dual AC... They were really good for the points. Resilient with IWND too.

with dropping them you can afford to take short range weapons, if you are trying to gun line with dreads and using 24inch weapons (MM and AC) you will be outranged and killed before you fire a shot.

If your taking lots of Dreads, then bring a lot of rhinos/razorbacks seems like the best option. Your troops should probably be MSU tacticals, and possibly even include cheap ASM in rhinos with 2x special weapons for tactical advancing on the enemy. I think you should doing something special with your Master of the Forge (Don't have ym book here at work with me, but let me know if this si not possible) Take your MoTF with the special artificer armor and beamer, leave him on foot with relentless. Maybe with a bodyguard of Centurions. You can use rhinos/razobacks to cut off firelanes and turboboost to block LOS shooting at your centurions as they advance move around the field for shooting effect. Something like.

MoTF

2x Dreads TL Las/ML

4x MSU Tacticals(10man combat squads if points allow) in Razorbacks with your choice of weapon.

3x MSU ASMs w/ 2x special weapons in rhinos

2x Dreads 2x TL A/C

TFC

HPs killed dreads, etc.

That said, how do you plan to deal with, say, deathrain crisis w/buffmander, or IG autocannon spam, or AV14/13 walls with your gunline dreads.

If you can answer that reliably, then rock on, I just don't really see you with an answer to them as gunline.

Maybe a small podded team of some sort to kill high-value stuff T1, and a second sitting in reserves using your aegis line's comms relay?

Also, yes, take venerable all day every day, HP stripping isn't that big a deal to you, explodes results are.

You could consider other vehicles to a) provide target saturation to take some of the heat off the Dreads, and b) provide anti-air. The problem with b) is that the best options - Hunter or Stalker - would mean one less Dread in HS.

Land Speeders with assault cannons might work, but would only be about as useful as dual-autocannon Dreads really (and more vulnerable, if anything). Razorbacks are fantastic for target saturation since they're cheap, can be taken on just about any infantry unit (and you'll need SOME Troops), and their firepower means they likely won't be ignored as Rhinos would. That said they don't really answer the anti-air problem.

I would drop two MM/HF Ven Dreads on the enemy T1. BS5 MMs should be able to crack any heavy AV and two dreads in their lines will slow their army down considerably. I feel that if you entire army is holed up near the Aegis your enemy has the advantage, and that the ability to alter his movements and threaten choice units is very powerful.

I'd put two Ven Assault Cannon Dreads with Heavy Flamers behind the Aegis, just make sure to put part of the Aegis forward of your DZ.

At least one unit of scouts in a Bolstered Ruins is a great idea. Two TFCs would be great.

110 MotF Conversion Beamer

70 Camo Sniper Scouts
70 Camo Sniper Scouts
70 Camo Sniper Scouts

170 Ven Dread(MM, HF, Pod)
170 Ven Dread(MM, HF, Pod)
190 Ven Dread(Assault Cannon, HF, Empty Pod)

125 Storm Talon Skyhammer
125 Storm Talon Skyhammer

160 Ven Dread(TLLC, HF)
100 Thunder Fire Cannon
100 Thunder Fire Cannon

1460 Right there and needs one more troop.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Iron Hands gunline - Please read before posting

Yikes. You shouldn't have to put that but sadly it is needed.


I'm personally more of a fan of some crazy dread drop pod army (5 dreads) than the one you mentioned... but that really isn't a "gunline" anymore is it? Hmm

I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned Ironclads for dropping on the enemy. twin heavy flamers av13 and iwnd.

I would really want to include a contempitor

another AV13 walker will help your walkers stand up in combat
the 5++ then also behind the 4+ aegis will ensure that your enemy will use his cover ignoring weapons on your other walkers.
twin kheris assault cannons will help you take down heavy infantry and light vehicles.
skyfire while standing still might help a little(with only 24" range flyers can avoid you)
It also looks really cool

Here's what I'm thinking: Aegis Defense Line. Master of the Forge (probably with a bike, maybe or maybe not with a beamer). A single thunderfire cannon. Then dreadnought saturation. 4-5 dreads, arranged in a delightful firing line behind the aegis. Between the cover save, It Will Not Die, and the HQ's ability to patch his own men up, it could be a very survivable list.

So you want to castle up with your elite and hs units. But in 5 of the 6 missions, you need to occupy objectives. For this, you need a different tactics. The Dreads need to step forward in order to bolster the advance of your troops.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Here's what I'm thinking: Aegis Defense Line. Master of the Forge (probably with a bike, maybe or maybe not with a beamer). A single thunderfire cannon. Then dreadnought saturation. 4-5 dreads, arranged in a delightful firing line behind the aegis. Between the cover save, It Will Not Die, and the HQ's ability to patch his own men up, it could be a very survivable list.

So you want to castle up with your elite and hs units. But in 5 of the 6 missions, you need to occupy objectives. For this, you need a different tactics. The Dreads need to step forward in order to bolster the advance of your troops.

so you need small marine squads in razorbacks/rhinos to jump for objectives late game.

Well, if you go with a base of infantry then the Dreads can easily keep pace with them, creating a "moving castle" of sorts.
...idea. If you do this, you need to name your Warlord "Howl".

 Jimsolo wrote:
So, I'm constructing an Iron Hands gunline army. I'm going to keep it small. (1500 points is the absolute max, I'd like to keep it confined to 1000-1250.)

Here's what I'm thinking: Aegis Defense Line. Master of the Forge (probably with a bike, maybe or maybe not with a beamer). A single thunderfire cannon. Then dreadnought saturation. 4-5 dreads, arranged in a delightful firing line behind the aegis. Between the cover save, It Will Not Die, and the HQ's ability to patch his own men up, it could be a very survivable list.

So, what do you guys think? Personally, I'm against the dual autocannon build, since I've never seen it perform adequately in the field.

Ran something similar when CSM came out with a bunch of daemon engines led by a warpsmith.

That list had a forgefiend, a maulerfiend, and defiler and then 3 helbrutes with power scourges.

That had some advantages, cheap cultists to fill up troop choices. The helbrutes helped keep combat units away from the daemon engines. Lots of things had 5++ to help them when they walked out from behind the aegis line.

But you have IWND on all your vehicles, ATSKNF, cheaper techmarines, bolster defenses(rather than shatter), TFC. Watch out for combat though. Lots of units can give dreads problems these days.

I would suggest land speeder a couple of camo scouts then dread and tech marine out. You will need another hq to take another techmarines. Which I suggest a librarian or another master of the forge.

 Jimsolo wrote:


What this thread IS NOT.

A discussion of how hull points have made vehicles unviable.
Discussing whether or not to take dreadnoughts.

I'm glad you specified that. I love Dreadnoughts and vehicles and get so tired of people bashing them.
You could have a mix of Dreads to fulfill various roles e.g. Anti-Infantry/Anti-Light Armour, Anti-Armour etc.

I know it does really matter, but fluffwise Dreads wouldn't usually have to same load out.

You could take a 1-2 Rifle-Dreads or HB/AC, 1-2 Dreads with Lascannon/ML or Plasma Cannon/ML, then 1-2 Ironclads in Drop pods to deal with long range armour on the enemy's side. ADL for anti-air or take 1 less dread for a Stormraven or AA tank.

MarkyMark wrote:with dropping them you can afford to take short range weapons, if you are trying to gun line with dreads and using 24inch weapons (MM and AC) you will be outranged and killed before you fire a shot.

This was my thought, really, and why I was avoiding taking any of the 24" weapons.

Super Ready wrote:You could consider other vehicles to a) provide target saturation to take some of the heat off the Dreads, and b) provide anti-air. The problem with b) is that the best options - Hunter or Stalker - would mean one less Dread in HS.

Land Speeders with assault cannons might work, but would only be about as useful as dual-autocannon Dreads really (and more vulnerable, if anything). Razorbacks are fantastic for target saturation since they're cheap, can be taken on just about any infantry unit (and you'll need SOME Troops), and their firepower means they likely won't be ignored as Rhinos would. That said they don't really answer the anti-air problem.

Speeders or Razors might be a damn good idea. I'll have to look into which ones I can get on the cheap.

AV13 would stand up really well to massed tau/eldar S5/S6/S7 deny cover shooting. Unfortunately scouts with camo cloaks would be easily pasted by ignore cover shots and you need troops to win.

Ironclads are usually an in your face unit. There is some anti synergy between ironclads and gunline. There is also some anti synergy between ironclads and troops that depend on cover.

If you're going to gun line it I would recommend some predators for heavy support and keep the ironclads elite. Both are AV13 and can withstand the same shooting. Both have IWND. Predators are very vulnerable to CC, but that weakness can be protected with Ironclads nearby.