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This weekend my gaming club dove into its next escalation league, and needing to get another army painted (and play some Warhammer dammit), I threw in my gibbering tentacular gauntlet. I'll be playing Daemons of Tzeentch over the next five months, starting at 500 points and increasing by 500 each month until we hit 2500 in the spring. We're set to play four games per points level (all will be Battleline with bonus VP adjusted for the various tiers), with a single day event at the end of each tier during which we can score extra league points, as well as a heap more points for getting everything painted by the close of the current points bracket. I'll be doing my damnedest to tell you about the games as they come, though no promises will be made as to the format, content or consistency of said reports

Without further ado, let the carnage begin

THE LIST

Herald of Tzeentch - level 1 (METAL)
10 Horrors - standard, musician
10 Horrors - musician
3 Flamers
--------
500

GAME ONE: HIGH ELVES

Mage - level 1 (HIGH), ring of fury, barded steed
5 Silver Helms - standard, musician
5 Swordmasters
5 Swordmasters
Bolt Thrower
Eagle



Mage rides in with the helms, whilst the herald gribbles up with the horrors without standard.

MAGIC
Mage: Drain Magic
Ring: Soul Quench

Herald: Searing Doom
Horrors 1: Blue Fire
Horrors 2: Firestorm

Mistake #1) Double up on blue at low levels, smaller unit size means D6 hits can still matter, plus T3 elves makes SD6 not so sad

FIGHT
Turn 1

Tizz takes the initiative and shuffles up into magical blasting range ... and shortly thereafter the First Reign of Chaos Roll comes up 2-1 The Tizz Herald sweats through the Instability test, searing doom doesn't make it past the elven mage, and the turn is passed to the pointy ears.


The elves punch it forward, and the magic rebuttal sees the ring shatter as it irresistibles soul quench into the right horrors (for a single dead gribble), after the mage was allowed to put up drain magic (netting his unit a 6+ ward (should have been 5+ with the ring too I'm guessing)). The bolter lets rip on the same horror block, dropping another two daemons.

Turn 2

Both horror blocks back up 2", while the flamers rush to engage the eagle swooping down the flank. Magic blows average and achieves nothing of note, however the flamers dump nine shots into the eagle, score two wounds, and the warpflame kicks in and finishes the budgie off! Unexpectedly worthwhile special rule!


The silver helms fail a longish charge into the left horrors, as the swordmasters sprint to engage their foes. Drain magic is denied, though the bolt thrower skewers several (3) more horrors from the right block, leaving only a handful (4).

Turn 3

The Tzeentchian herald commands his horrors to reverse once more, sending the flamers to deal with the left swordmasters and the depleted horrors to divert the right choppy elves. The winds blow strong, gifting the daemons a 4+ ward save, as well as providing the herald with enough juice to boost searing doom onto the silver helms. It goes through and liquifies the unit, leaving an unscathed but decidedly unnerved mage, who manages to keep his cool despite. Then the flamers open up on the left swordies, cooking two and finishing off two more thanks to warpflame.


The last of the swordmasters hurls himself into the herald's horrors in a final act of vengeance, and his fellow warrior elite on the right oblige the horrors standing in their way. Also, the mage gets the fakk out of there, eschewing any casting in his flight to the backfield.


While the right swordmasters are able to drop two horrors for one of their own (lost to an exploding blue horror, nonetheless), the solo swordy finds little traction amongst the shimmering daemons, panics and breaks from combat. Apparently thrilled at winning a combat, the horrors lurch forward 12" into the center of the board.

Turn 4

Further forward than anticipated, the herald leads his charges deeper into enemy territory, and the flamers take up position within the building. Magic brings the attention of Tzeentch himself, however no fire rains from the sky, although the herald does manage to send a stream of molten metal in the mage's direction, burning him alive (thanks for the barding mate ). The flamers open up with a long shot on the bolter (6+ to hit, 6+ to wound), manage to drop one of the crew with a hearty roll of ten shots, and then warpflame kicks in (on a 6!) and finishes the machine off. Whoa. Speaking of finishing things off, the swordmasters drop their horrors and reform ...


... and pounce on the enemy rear. Horrors die, an elf dies, steadfast stability is stable, and the horrors reform to face.

Turn 5

With the game pretty much in the bag, Tizz just needs to work through three pesky elves to walk away with a thrilling victory to open the league. Naturally the Reign of Chaos dumps out a 1-1 result: the flamers pass no problem, yet the herald and his unit roll up 6-6 and poof

As I take a moment to pick my jaw up, the flamers erase the swordmasters, for what turns out to be a 120 point victory - also known as a DRAW

So that happened Maybe I'll save my unit thoughts for the end of a points bracket? As my list is locked down for the next few games, and I have sooooo much to learn about the army and what it can do. For now, here's a hearty for flamers, at least at smaller points. It's scary to think of how potent they were pre-nerfing, but even here and at min size they managed to be real players. Also have to reiterate how unexpected it was to have warpflame do anything useful!

Next Up: interlude vs dark elves

- Salvage

I challenged one of the DE players to see what nastiness they've got going now. As it turned out, quite a lot

GAME X: DARK ELVES

Sorceress - level 1 (DARK)
10 Dark Shards - musician
12 Executioners
5 Doomfire Warlocks



Sorceress runs free behind the executioners, and the tizz herald teams up with the standard horrors.

MAGIC
Sorceress: Doombolt
Warlocks: Doombolt, Soulblight

Herald: Searing Doom
Horrors 1: Blue Fire
Horrors 2: Glean Magic

Yes, once again I didn't double up on blue fire, but glean looked like a functional way to nerf the warlocks a smidge, and ultimately doombolt is drunkenly better than blue fire

FIGHT
Turn 1

Despite not getting +1, Tizz wins the dice roll (on the fourth go round) and moves up into range. The Reign brings a surging 10 winds roll (+1 ward), though the warlocks show what a 4+ ward can do and shrug off a S6 blue fire and the single 6+ searing doom that landed, taking no wounds. They are likewise unimpressed by the flamers meager heat.


The evil elves likewise advance, with the exception of the aiming dark shards. The warlocks' first doombolt comes up IF, tears through the horrors (though credit to them for some legit ward saves), and the miscast does exactly nothing, the three feedback wounds easily warded. The dark shards flub.

Turn 2

The Tzeentchian daemons slink around in the face of true monstrosity, hoping for a more potent magical onslaught this round. Another 10 serves up enhanced wards and lots of power dice ... but the warlocks remain unscathed (searing doom couldn't wound, blue fire rolled S1, glean was shut down). To add injury to insult, the herald miscast his searing doom, sending S6 hits through himself and the horrors, resulting in a wound for him and a dead gribble.


In response the warlocks pounce on the wounded horrors, with the executioners failing to make it in alongside them. Magic and shooting are inconsequential, and when it comes to combat the horrors pop wards like bosses and hold with only two dead - and a blue horror poke pulls the first warlock from his saddle!!

Turn 3

The flamers take the building, the full size horrors continue to back up, and the herald bails out to escape the incoming executioners. An average winds roll sees the Eye closed and two executioners dead to searing doom, and then the flamers unleash on the sorceress. The dice are not particularly with them and she is left on one wound ... plus 6+ regen thanks to warpflame In combat the horrors are wiped out.


The sorceress gets the crap away from the flamers' house, as the executioners fail a longish charge on the horrors and the warlocks take aim at the tizz herald. An IF doombolt tears him to pieces, the miscast once again meaningless in the face of 4+ ward power (we did indeed roll those extra hits for rolling doubles on his doombolts, but they never amounted to anything). Dark shards fail to hurt the horrors.

Turn 4

Operation: Kill the Fakking Warlocks goes into desperation mode! The horrors IF blue fire onto them, cooking none but losing 4+ of their own from the magical backlash. Tzeentch Himself visits the field, unfortunately the flame template headed for the hideously disfigured sorceress drifts off And the flamers unleash on the eeevil warlocks, managing to flambe three of the four, but the last muscles through the warpflame damage (4+ ward ftw!)


The executioners finally dock with the horror fragment and delete them. Likewise the remaining warlock looks at the flamers and uses a doombolt to paint the inside of the building with their glowing entrails.

So that's a LOSS to the Doomfire Warlocks then

- Salvage

First report was totally awesome, and surprisingly back-and-forth for such a low point level! Will read the second tomorrow

Do you game at an independent FLGS? I wish mine would run an escalation league; really helps with the painting motivation, and learning a new army.

Yep, my club (The Shambling Horde) throws down fairly regularly at our FLGS (Grimfoe Games), and we've had a few larger events in the last years as well, gathering folks from out of the area. Totally hear you on the painting front, there's no way I could get 60 horrors painted for this army, but 10 a month is far more doable

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
So that's a LOSS to the Doomfire Warlocks then

Wow, they really did carry it! Are they scarier at low points like this, or is this a unit we'll be seeing in every DE list from now on?

Awesome report, and an innovative list.

I'd guess the Warlocks will be even more popular in smaller games; their set spell selection, durability, and maneuverability make them really efficient.

But they do seem awesome all around, too.

Cheers Warp, will be sure to keep them coming when I have more to report

On the warlocks, it seems like a rare DE list indeed that doesn't include at least one unit, and I've seen plenty of them around the Internet already, usually with two smaller units or even one deathstar style unit. The things are really pretty ridiculous given just how much they've got going for them: level 2 wizards to the last model, two fantastic spells automatically, essentially 0 miscast punishment (particularly as no dice are ever lost from the pool), 4+ wards, swiftstride M9 (right?), not stompable, ASF, S4, reroll to wounds of 1 ... and probably more? For 25 points a pop!

They're game-changing enough as a caster unit (ironically I think horrors are the other example of this in Warhammer), but then they kept piling more and more on to the point that I can't help but shake my head. But yes, as nasty as these are in big games, they're pretty horrifically efficient at low points. The DE player here is already musing about how comped they'll be at tournies, and we half tossed around increasing their points to 26 each so our 500 point games would be a little more interesting vs him

- Salvage

Well they also have poison attacks...

I only played a few games whfb until now and while Iagree they are the best unit I seen so far from the book... they are not unbeatable.

They have no armor save t3 ok a 4+ ward but in your game it sounds like they did 20 saves in a row ... what are the chances? I saw them go down way faster than in your game.

Also misscast while the punishment is not too high it is also unlikely they save all the wounds from 2 feedbacks like here.

But I never played a 500points game and can see how they are crazy in those games. Since they are basically a second herochoice since most armies dont have the shooting/magic to kill them off fast

MagicGis wrote:
Well they also have poison attacks...

What I tell you

I also forgot to list that they can Vanguard

Your point is taken, five wounds with a 6/4+ to keep them alive is not necessarily too impossible to punch through, though the fact that you must kill every single warlock to drop their magic effectiveness means that you really do have to devote serious attention to erase them. I still say their miscast rules push them well towards broken,* not simply because it has a negligible effect on the warlocks (D3 auto-wounds with a 4+ ward yields an average of 1 dead model), but because it costs no further dice from the power pool, unlike many of the other standard results.

* I strongly hesitate to call anything 'broken' any more (I credit spending a year playing WM/H), though I do still hold GeeDub accountable for bad moments in book design. I feel like the warlocks are an instance of this, as they are so obviously overpowered / undercosted you would think somebody would have caught it. The only other stand out for me in the new DE is that they have access to nine lores of magic. Why so lazy, Dubs? Our short comings and limitations are the things that give us character and allow us to flourish in the face of adversity ... unless you're a dark elf, who gets whatever they want? Yes, I'm bitter because I would trade the Lore of Tzeentch for Beasts any day of the week ... but Tizz & Metal is what I've got, so I'll make it work. With DE you can just knee jerk to Shadow, Death, Life (in that order) and take the Obvious Choice. Maybe the saving grace is that the Lore of Dark is so bamf that there really is a choice to make? Or you just let your two units of warlocks handle the doombolting and leave the Purple Suns / Mindrazors to the level 4

Enough ranting in a batrep thread though

- Salvage

Totally agree, Salvage.

T3 with a 6+/4+ isn't super-durable. But with 5+W, it's tons more durable than any other Wizard, point-for-point.
They've got a bigger foot print, I guess, but with M9, Fast Cavalry and Vanguard, you're not going to be touching that unit with anything but shooting, magic, and other units like the Warlocks themselves: small and fast.
Aaand then the Warlocks have the ultimate anti-fast cav/chaff spell (and I used to catch flak for Warp Lightning being too good), and they're also ASF S4 with Poison? Can't throw Eagles at them. Or Warhounds, or Marauder Horsemen. Reavers will do some damage in combat, but they'll still loose the fight. If they don't get Doombolt'd beforehand.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

MagicGis wrote:
Well they also have poison attacks...

What I tell you

I also forgot to list that they can Vanguard

Your point is taken, five wounds with a 6/4+ to keep them alive is not necessarily too impossible to punch through, though the fact that you must kill every single warlock to drop their magic effectiveness means that you really do have to devote serious attention to erase them. I still say their miscast rules push them well towards broken,* not simply because it has a negligible effect on the warlocks (D3 auto-wounds with a 4+ ward yields an average of 1 dead model), but because it costs no further dice from the power pool, unlike many of the other standard results.

* I strongly hesitate to call anything 'broken' any more (I credit spending a year playing WM/H), though I do still hold GeeDub accountable for bad moments in book design. I feel like the warlocks are an instance of this, as they are so obviously overpowered / undercosted you would think somebody would have caught it. The only other stand out for me in the new DE is that they have access to nine lores of magic. Why so lazy, Dubs? Our short comings and limitations are the things that give us character and allow us to flourish in the face of adversity ... unless you're a dark elf, who gets whatever they want? Yes, I'm bitter because I would trade the Lore of Tzeentch for Beasts any day of the week ... but Tizz & Metal is what I've got, so I'll make it work. With DE you can just knee jerk to Shadow, Death, Life (in that order) and take the Obvious Choice. Maybe the saving grace is that the Lore of Dark is so bamf that there really is a choice to make? Or you just let your two units of warlocks handle the doombolting and leave the Purple Suns / Mindrazors to the level 4

Enough ranting in a batrep thread though

- Salvage

Don't confuse Dark Elves getting all 8 lores as silly with the simple fact that our own book is the worst pile of steaming fecal matter of all the updated books...
Warlocks may be hilariously stupid, but the real fact is, they just show us how god-awful Horrors really are. Meanwhile, while your Flamers are okay at low pts, you'll soon find out just how garbage they truly are once the points totals increase.

Warlocks are simply the DE's version of our own Beasts of Nurgle.
The rest of their book however is pretty solid overall. Ours though, eh, not so much.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Don't confuse Dark Elves getting all 8 lores as silly with the simple fact that our own book is the worst pile of steaming fecal matter of all the updated books...

Thinking about it more, I'm not that upset about the nine lores thing. They already had the truly nasty lores in the last book (Shadow, Death) anyway. What's really happening is that I'm jealous of Beasts magic (because I keep ending up with S3 T3 armies that desperately need buffs they can't have), and I hate Life magic and the static, deathstar-style builds it so often leads too

Meanwhile, while your Flamers are okay at low pts, you'll soon find out just how garbage they truly are once the points totals increase.

In all honesty I thought flamers were total garbage after they received the mother of all nerfs with the new book, no matter how busted they were in the last one. The only reason I'm running them at all is because somebody - pretty sure it was you RiTides - implied that there was something wrong with playing Daemons of Tzeentch yet leaving out a unit as well-established as flamers. That and variety. Also the fact that their min unit size is 120 points, which happens to be the same as min screamers, which tend to fill many of the same chaff / anti-chaff roles for me. What's truly bizarre to me is that the flamer trio seems to be working! I'm sure they will do less heavy lifting (!) in larger games, but I do think they'll continue to be relevant. I've toyed with playing with much larger units of them ... but I don't see that working out

Enough flamer talk:

GAME TWO: OGRES

Firebelly
5 Ironguts - standard (of discipline), bellower
3 Ogres - bellower
Sabretusk



Firebelly in the guts, herald in the horrors without a standard.

MAGIC

Firebelly: Fireball

Herald: Searing Doom
Horrors 1: Blue Fire
Horrors 2: Blue Fire

I'm learning

BATTLE
Turn 1

Ogres win the roll and floor it forward. Magic is 3-2 but the firebelly fails to cast the biggest fireball at the horrors in front of him.


Horrors shuffle back and slide sideways, as flamers find range on the kitten. Magic is 6-2 (+1 Tizz channel), Khorne deigns to visit the field, and blue fire erupts all over the small ogre unit. 4 S6 followed by a second 4 S6 leaves a single ogre on two wounds, who succumbs to the warpflame and dies! The herald is so stunned that his searing doom causes a single wound to the mini-gutstar. Then the flamers nuke the sabretusk.

Turn 2

Alone on the field but filled with purpose, the guts try a long charge into some horrors, but fall short and trot forward. Magic is 4-3 (+1 Tizz channel), and the firebelly's fireball is dispelled with maximum derision.


Shuffle, slide and find range boys! Magic is 2-1 ... and the herald rolls boxcars for his Instability Horrors got this though: a 6 S6 blue fire makes it through and scours four wounds from the guts, while also giving them a 6+ regen! The flamers lay into them next, managing one wound to the guts and one to the firebelly, both of whom pass their warpflame tests and gain 5+ regen

Turn 3

The rapidly diminishing / mutating gutstar makes it into the horrors with standard and, with the help of the firebelly's breath weapon, vaporize 9 of 10 daemons. This sends a wave of 18 blue horrors gibbering past the ogres, which somehow manages to pull down a wounded irongut and wound the firebelly again! Then the standard winks out of existence.


Horrors turn to face the inevitable as flamers find their range. Magic is 5-3, once again Khorne could care less, and blue fire finally flubs, with a weaksauce 4 S1. The flamers unload and manage a wound + another thanks to warpflame.

Turn 4

The depleted gutstar (i.e. firebelly + standard + bellower) rams into the second horror block, and the pain is once more brought. 7 of 10 daemons are mulched and the flood of blue horrors somehow rips a wound from the bellower before the rest of the unit pops.

*From here I made a mistake in the diagrams: the bellower did not die to blue horrors here, so the unit was still firebelly + standard + (wounded) bellower. This matters later!


Alone on the field but filled with purpose, the flamers bound to the flank of the gutstar, ready for vengeance. BUT FIRST! Magic is 6-6, summoning a fresh unit of 10 horrors, who default to blue fire and slam it out with IF! 6 S1 amounts to nothing, however the laughs continue when the miscast nukes six of the newly spawned daemons And then the flamers can't make it past the ogres' 5+ regen saves ...

Turn 5

The firebelly and friends turn to face the flamers, knowing full well they won't be catching them ...


Rotisserie ogre anyone? Magic is 4-1, Tizz tosses down no flames, and the horrors' 3 S3 falls short. The flamers unload and kill the bellower, panicking the firebelly and standard bearer away ... and giving them 4+ regen in the process!

Turn 6

The firebelly + standard rally. And if he rolled for magic at all then he had his fireball slapped out of his ham fist, dammit.


Just to clarify, all the ogres have is a firebelly on two wounds standing next to an irongut standard bearer. Magic is 5-2, managing 4 S2 blue fire, which stunningly wounds the firebelly once ... and boosts him to 3+ regen Then the flamers rev up for glory - half their hits are allocated to the firebelly, and the single wound that sticks makes it past that ridiculous regen save. BAM!

Now I wish this actually ended up tabling him, but despite what the picture suggests, that last irongut was standing strong. I did get half points for bringing his unit so low, but even then the end result was about 20 points in his favor, or another DRAW. Good dark lord that was some crazy gak though!

- Salvage

Hilarious stuff, Salvage.

Can you clarify how Warpflame works for me? I've glanced at it once, but after that...well, I only ever see Nurgle Tally lists and Cacaobombs...

Yea, this is like Yahtzeehammer with the dial cranked to 11 - which is a lot of fun if you can keep the right mindset, and so far is working for me. Come tournament time and all I can manage are draws because of shenanigans ... then we'll see who's laughing

Here's the text for Warpflame (off the spell card but pretty sure the wording is the same for shooting damage):

At the end of each phase, any unit that suffered one or more unsaved Wounds from an attak with this special rule during that phase must take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, the unit immediately suffers D3 Wounds with no armor saves allowed. If the test is passed, all models in the unit gain the Regeneration (6+) special rule for the rest of the game. Any models in the unit that already have the Regeneration special rule instead gain +1 to all Regeneration saving throws for the rest of the game. Chaos is fickle!

We actually weren't sure what to do when the ironguts and the firebelly each took a wound after allocation. We ended up rolling separate tests for both (both passed, so the overall regen boost was the same) ... but I'm not convinced that was the right thing to do. Even if a character in a unit can be tagged by enemy fire (because too few RNF), I don't think that makes them a separate unit from the unit they're within. So in our case two disparate entities were damaged by warpflame, but I suppose still only one unit was affected as far as the end of phase test goes?

Speaking of rules mistakes, I also missed that blue horror hits are not automatic, but in fact hit on a 4+. Flipside, I have also never remembered to roll the 4+ to summon new horrors for every wound caused by Tizz spells. It helps that this was the first game were my horrors' magic wounded things

- Salvage

Interesting. Warpflame definitely seems like it's got more going against it than for it. Do you think the spells/shooting are (or, at least, were attempted to be) inherently better, and Warpflame dials them back a bit?

Also, don't all of the Tzeentch units have Flaming attacks?

Warpsolution wrote:
Interesting. Warpflame definitely seems like it's got more going against it than for it. Do you think the spells/shooting are (or, at least, were attempted to be) inherently better, and Warpflame dials them back a bit?

Warpflame is utterly moronic in Fantasy because units generally are so large, and outside of a couple exceptions, neither the Lore of Tzeentch or Flamers shooting can kill enough to make it viable vs. things outside of chaff removal.
Really, outside of Infernal Gateway and Tzeentch's Firestorm, Horrors overall really struggle to do significant damage due to the combination of random hits/strength attacks coupled with Warpflame. Meanwhile, spells like Glean Magic are 100% useless on these guys since they're always stuck at Lv1, making it highly unlikely you'll ever steal a random spell.

At lowers pts values it tends to swing much more towards the "really good" end of the spectrum though simply because you're not facing nearly the same numbers in enemy units.
For example, vs. just 3 or 4 ogres Warpflame isn't so bad, while against just 5 knights it can be absolutely killer. You'd never consider it though against the more typical unit sizes of 8+ ogres or 9-10+ knights however! (okay, if you have Gateway those Knights are almost certainly paste anyways!)

And again with Flamers, you're paying through the nose for a unit that can't decide what it wants to do. D6/18" range S4 shots that also suffer from the multiple shots penalty, (and likely moving & shooting), while not gaining the benefit of Quick to Fire in 'normal' sized games struggles to reliably remove even a basic unit of 5 Fast Cavalry models. Then you're further hamstrung by the max unit size of only 6 and WS2 in combat, on top of Daemonic Instability...
And all for the same cost as a Space Marine Terminator!!!

As a fellow mono-Tzeentch player, I really want to field Flamers, but sinking the pts into them always turns into a wasted opportunity in anything above 1k pts. (ie; Screamers could have done the same or likely, better)

Warpsolution wrote:
Also, don't all of the Tzeentch units have Flaming attacks?

Nope, Tzeentch lost all their Flaming Attacks in the new book. (though there is a RAW argument to try and give it to the Burning Chariot, but it's really splitting hairs!)

You can take the Banner of E. Flame on a BSB to give 1 unit Flaming Attacks, but Tzheralds overall are the outright worst BSB option in the book due to being only T3/W2 with a 5++/re-roll 1's. (and no access to Gifts if you take a magic standard)



Overall, Tzeentch does much better at really low points totals because the enemy can't take advantage of our glaring weaknesses, while the random nature of most Tzeentch damage abilities pays off much bigger and looses less.

At around the 1500pts mark and up though, things start getting seriously depressing!

Yes, somewhat stupidly none of the Tizz stuff is flaming - except for the flame cannon on the burning chariot. This isn't the place to argue over the RAW of it, but I intend to play it as flaming unless directed otherwise by a TO. It helps the argument that this hardly makes the DoT broken

Flamers pretty clearly got the GeeDub pendulum swing, in combat and ranged alike (though why they were pimps in melee was always beyond me). I feel like the crippling number of range modifiers they suffer may be a taste of things to come with 9E. Same with the various grape shot weapons and the SG's warp gaze - something may be happening with BS shooting, there's currently a painful amount of negatives on a lot of new book units (lizards have several).

Warpsolution wrote:
Warpflame definitely seems like it's got more going against it than for it. Do you think the spells/shooting are (or, at least, were attempted to be) inherently better, and Warpflame dials them back a bit?

Honestly I think Warpflame is supposed to be a boon, but it certainly felt like a bad joke when I first read it. What's crazy is that it seems to be working?! At least a little bit, vs small units, that are T3-4. In larger games I really don't look forward to trying to use Tizz magic to hurt really nasty things - deathstars that just get bloaty with regen, big gribblies with high toughness and already equipped with 4+ regen. Spoiler: I don't plan on relying on Tizz magic in larger games

But isn't that sad? That a DoT army doesn't want to use its own lore? It really is one of the most disappointing aspects of the DoC book. Basically, it's a blaster lore that isn't particularly good at blasting? A simple fix would have been to make blue fire SD6+1, make at least a few spells flaming, and give us some kind of augment. A beautiful one would have been +D3S / +D3T, or S = Artillery Die, with a Misfire doing something unfortunate ... though perhaps that would be too Skaven-y for GW? I've played Skaven for years, and while DoT at first seemed to be a lot like them with the random factor, I'm finding that Tzeentch Daemons are just flat out random. With Skaven your wonder weapons either nuke the enemy or you; with Tizz your stuff has the potential to do something, but most likely will trend to mediocrity. And then the Reign of Chaos swallows your general.

- Salvage

Warpflame feels like it was designed for 40k, and it works fine in 40k, but then they ham-fistedly shoved it into Fantasy and it doesn't work at all.

The Lore of Tzeentch is.. yeah I don't know.

Usually random is perceived as a negative, a penalty you pay for potentially being really good. Games Workshop seems to view it as a positive here? The average strength of your spells is 3.5 (Lore of Fire is 4), and instead of flaming you have a rule that against large units (the norm) has far more drawbacks than benefits. The Lore of Fire is already considered not great, so being a worse version of it is not good.

I think Warpflame should do at least D3 wounds per rank of the unit. Reward is not matching risk at all.

 Nitros14 wrote:
Warpflame feels like it was designed for 40k, and it works fine in 40k, but then they ham-fistedly shoved it into Fantasy and it doesn't work at all.

The Lore of Tzeentch is.. yeah I don't know.

Usually random is perceived as a negative, a penalty you pay for potentially being really good. Games Workshop seems to view it as a positive here? The average strength of your spells is 3.5 (Lore of Fire is 4), and instead of flaming you have a rule that against large units (the norm) has far more drawbacks than benefits. The Lore of Fire is already considered not great, so being a worse version of it is not good.

I think Warpflame should do at least D3 wounds per rank of the unit. Reward is not matching risk at all.

Warpflame would be fine if we were given Lore of Fire which synergises great with Tzeentch magic & our weaker combat units especially, in place of the rather pointless Lore of Metal which only gives us Final Trans and one or two utility spells...

Vs. most large units, the risk is usually a 50/50 shot at either doing more damage or else handing out regen, since most large units outside of Lizzies & O&G's will be T3. The idea of D3 wounds per rank would have been super, but alas, this is 8th ed Daemons - the borked book which simply reads like the "I didn't give a gak when I wrote this" army book.

Experiment626, I get the strange feeling you are not happy about the new daemons book...

Salvage your battles have kind of showed me that starting a daemons army might be fun, but will ultimately be frustrating. So... Many... Draws...

I would go crazy with an Army being more random than OnG or Skaven!

Any preview at how your list will evolve at higher points?

Experiment 626 wrote:Vs. most large units, the risk is usually a 50/50 shot at either doing more damage or else handing out regen, since most large units outside of Lizzies & O&G's will be T3. The idea of D3 wounds per rank would have been super, but alas, this is 8th ed Daemons - the borked book which simply reads like the "I didn't give a gak when I wrote this" army book.

So the first time I ran this army in any form was actually a 2500 point single day event at my LGS, with a lord-less list filled with level 2 wizards. I ended up in dead last place after three games (I actually won the first one thanks to Slaanesh reaching down and insta-gibbing a stegadon for me), earning a $25 gift certificate and a whole lot of things to think about ... Anyway, in a game vs Empire I actually got a horde of halberds up to 3+ regen, as he was making his warpflame tests like a boss, and I kept piling them on as I didn't really see Lore of Tizz doing much against 1+ armor saves (I did have two heralds on Metal but they were dead at this point ).

On the borking, yes I do think GeeDub went too far. DoC was the book that needed to be nerfed, and they certainly did it. Case in point, I would never have played DoC in the last book, and one of my favorite warhammer jokes is the one about two daemon players setting their armies up and letting their dogs play for them as they get a few beers, because it was pretty obviously Easyhammer. Yes there are still nasty things in the book now, and yes we are seeing a LOT of daemons at tournaments, but we're also seeing essentially one build over and over, with the occasional Mono Nurgle (+ Skillcannons), the odd Mono Khorne, the rare Mono Slaanesh, and the nigh unheard of Mono Tzeentch. This is the mark of a bad book, generating a single competitive build - Ogre Kingdoms is in a similar place, though not as extreme as Daemons.

I have my own personal list of complaints, but it's actually fairly short: no 25 point banner gift chart , lords of change have no real bonus in the magic department to make them stand out over other Level 4's, flamers got nerfed too hard (fewer negatives to hit would be appreciated for one!), Lore of Tzeentch is lacking (no augment + no flaming at all), annnnnd magical t-stomps. That last one because we'd have half a hope against BotWD if big things could at least stomp the ground in a non-magical way

Pervertdhermit wrote:Any preview at how your list will evolve at higher points?

I have all the steps ready to go ... but in true Tzeentchian fashion I'mma keep them to myself for now

- Salvage

This was a good read. I have been running mostly Tz DoC as my soon to be 2014 tourney army, still in practice and painting. the mid range points sucks, however the burning chariot is a beast even in combat vs t3. I really like the LoC with 3 units of screamers, screening and growning, and droping metal from the hearlds.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:Vs. most large units, the risk is usually a 50/50 shot at either doing more damage or else handing out regen, since most large units outside of Lizzies & O&G's will be T3. The idea of D3 wounds per rank would have been super, but alas, this is 8th ed Daemons - the borked book which simply reads like the "I didn't give a gak when I wrote this" army book.

So the first time I ran this army in any form was actually a 2500 point single day event at my LGS, with a lord-less list filled with level 2 wizards. I ended up in dead last place after three games (I actually won the first one thanks to Slaanesh reaching down and insta-gibbing a stegadon for me), earning a $25 gift certificate and a whole lot of things to think about ... Anyway, in a game vs Empire I actually got a horde of halberds up to 3+ regen, as he was making his warpflame tests like a boss, and I kept piling them on as I didn't really see Lore of Tizz doing much against 1+ armor saves (I did have two heralds on Metal but they were dead at this point ).

This is why Horrors only ever want Gateway (the best), Firestorm and in a pinch, Pink Fire. The rest of the lore may as well not even exist when it comes to them.
Firestorm can at least murder large chunks of most T3/4 Infantry units, especially those on the 20mm bases. The odd S2 template will suck Wardballs, but you tend to average S4/5 hits thanks to the Tzherald's +1S Locus. Any strength roll of 4+ will pretty much auto-negate an infantry unit's save, since most Infantry outside of WoC and Dwarfs tend to cap at 4+.
Gateway is the go-to spell for dealing with 1+/2+ saves as you again will tend to average 7/S8 hits thanks to the +S Locus. (which is the only Tzeentch locus worth taking in Fantasy...) -5 average to armour saves makes a mockery of cavalry and can be used to deal with most Monstrous Cav as well, unless they're Deathstaring them.

I typically take 2x Lv2 Tzheralds w/+1S Locus and always put at least one of them on Lore of Tzeentch. (or both if I'm only running 2x 18 Horrors instead of the more optimised 3-4x 10 strong versions)
Horrors just sit back and 6 dice their spells all day and don't care about miscasting. Hell, we don't even lose dice with them, and the Lore Attribute usually brings back what was killed and most of the time, more than what died to the miscast damage.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
On the borking, yes I do think GeeDub went too far. DoC was the book that needed to be nerfed, and they certainly did it. Case in point, I would never have played DoC in the last book, and one of my favorite warhammer jokes is the one about two daemon players setting their armies up and letting their dogs play for them as they get a few beers, because it was pretty obviously Easyhammer. Yes there are still nasty things in the book now, and yes we are seeing a LOT of daemons at tournaments, but we're also seeing essentially one build over and over, with the occasional Mono Nurgle (+ Skillcannons), the odd Mono Khorne, the rare Mono Slaanesh, and the nigh unheard of Mono Tzeentch. This is the mark of a bad book, generating a single competitive build - Ogre Kingdoms is in a similar place, though not as extreme as Daemons.

I swear the Fantasy community in general will never get over their obsessive butt-hurt from those 3-4 months where yes, our old book was over 9000% broken to s***!

Honestly, this current turd-fest we're stuck with reads like it was pretty much just;
1. designed to 'people please' all the Daemon-haters. (and honestly, for most of them, we can never be nerfed enough to satisfy them)
2. Ward didn't care at all for the project and didn't want to be bothered putting any actual effort into it... compare our book to his Dark Elves and especially the slightly OTT High Elves. There's no other way to explain why we got so unfairly shafted when he was clearly capable of producing much better.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
I have my own personal list of complaints, but it's actually fairly short: no 25 point banner gift chart , lords of change have no real bonus in the magic department to make them stand out over other Level 4's, flamers got nerfed too hard (fewer negatives to hit would be appreciated for one!), Lore of Tzeentch is lacking (no augment + no flaming at all), annnnnd magical t-stomps. That last one because we'd have half a hope against BotWD if big things could at least stomp the ground in a non-magical way

Pervertdhermit wrote:Any preview at how your list will evolve at higher points?

I have all the steps ready to go ... but in true Tzeentchian fashion I'mma keep them to myself for now

- Salvage

Lol! I have a lot more I guess, but I'll just add in our nonsensical Inspiring Prensence/BSB rules, the horrific Gift tables and the worst offender - Reign of Comedy table...
Lords of Change are crap because their spell selections are pretty 'meh', and they compete for dice alongside Tzheralds/Horrors. This on top of being cannonball bait & our lackluster Gifts tables... I've stopped using mine in anything under 2.8k. When I do use him I've started to lean more towards taking the Eternal Blade plus a roll on the Lesser Gifts table, as it turns him into a combat monster, something Tzeentch normally lacks. I'm to the point I don't even bother upgrading to a Lv4 anymore. The Tzheralds do fine with using-up the 'wasteful' spells the Horrors don't want, and Metal doesn't even begin to synergise well enough with the army to really warrant the investment.

I think honestly Lore of Tzeentch would be fine if we had Lore of Fire instead of Metal... Fire-Cloak & Flaming Sword would be solid buffs for both Horrors & Screamers, while Flame Cage is a neat little Hex spell which either forces a unit to for-fit its movement, or else can pump out some very scary damage to non-1+/2+ or Monstrous type units. Plus Lore of Fire has pretty low casting values overall, unlike Metal which ends up over-competing with those Tzeentch spells for power dice.
I honestly don't mind the magical t-stomps as it really does fit with who we are. Rather, it's the UltraWard DragonCrutch Banner that is to blame.


Dare I bet you a box of Tzeentch's Magical Ever-Shifting-Rainbow Cookies that you'll be adding in a pair of Burny Chariots plus a Soul Grinder at some point?! and maybe a bunch of MSU Screamers & 3x 5-strong Furies...

Dare I bet you a box of Tzeentch's Magical Ever-Shifting-Rainbow Cookies that you'll be adding in a pair of Burny Chariots plus a Soul Grinder at some point?! and maybe a bunch of MSU Screamers & 3x 5-strong Furies...

PISH. The first things I painted for this army were 9 screamers + 2 burning chariots, and one of the main reasons I'm playing it is to run my soul grinder(s)

- Salvage

This is the mark of a bad book, generating a single competitive build - Ogre Kingdoms is in a similar place, though not as extreme as Daemons.

Ogre kingdoms has only a single competitive build? I've seen many different kinds, what's the issue here?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Ogre kingdoms has only a single competitive build? I've seen many different kinds, what's the issue here?

I was referring to the 'Brogres' net list, a build so ubiquitous that it has to be specifically comped out at any tournament worth attending. We all know the list before we get to the table:

Slaughtermaster - level 4, heavy ward, maybe crown of command
Bruiser BSB - maybe rune maw, maybe crown of command
Butcher or Firebelly - hellheart
^ all in as many Ironguts allowed by comp (with standard of discipline)
Small unit(s) of Ogres if required to make core points due to capped guts
4 Mournfangs - dragonhide banner, ironfists
3x 1 Sabretusk
Perhaps Guneaters (pennant or flaming, snipers or poison or scout)
Perhaps Leadbelchers
2x Ironblasters

Not a lot of variety between lists happening with this skeleton, and that is bad. It's a lot like the last WoC book, where you knew what you'd be facing before hitting the table (level 4 shadow, khorne halberd warriors, tizz turtle warriors, horde of khorne lumberjack marauders, double hellcannons, etc, etc)

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
The only reason I'm running them at all is because somebody - pretty sure it was you RiTides - implied that there was something wrong with playing Daemons of Tzeentch yet leaving out a unit as well-established as flamers. That and variety.

That was me, sorry if I guilted you into it . But I have to say, they were worth their weight in gold in the Ogre bat rep above! Just finished reading it, and I can see that you love some skirmishing shooting dudes to get all tactical maneuver-y with

A little OT, but have Mournfangs fallen out of favor for Ogres, given the standard skeleton list you laid out above? Those were the business in 2012...

Dragonhide mournfangs are auto-includes that I keep forgetting about Have added them into The List

Back on topic: hoping to get 1+ games in next weekend, then we've a 500 point event Dec 7! Stay tuned for moar madness!

- Salvage

Sounds excellent- good luck!

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Dragonhide mournfangs are auto-includes that I keep forgetting about Have added them into The List

Back on topic: hoping to get 1+ games in next weekend, then we've a 500 point event Dec 7! Stay tuned for moar madness!

- Salvage

Good luck!

Hopefully that incoming winter storm won't hit you too badly.