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Hi i ask the question because i see so much love for 40k and i understand why it has a prominent video game franchise on multiple platforms,
but i have friends who reminice about the days where there where tons of Warhammer fantasy players and how its the best tabletop game ect.

but these days when i finally can afford to get into it the player base is near nil.
everyone is on 40k.

sure 40k looks cool i love the video games too, but something about fantasy just calls to me.

i was never up to speed with the game as a kid it was just stuff i saw in hobby stores that looks amazing but was very pricey so my folks never bought me any.

i have to ask, WHAT HAPPENED?

if the game was so great why is it dying?
why has GW not tried harder to resurrect it to its former glory?
i mean even the MMORPG is being shut down now.

i hear a lot thats wrong with 40k that its unbalanced and parts are broken, but i don't hear anything bad about fantasy.

seriously people don't even recommend fantasy when i told them in store i was interested in war gaming, its all about 40k and warmachine here.

so i ask again what happened? where did all the love go?

theres 40k events all the time at my local goodgames store but only 1 short one once a year for fantasy, seriously i see more stuff about blood bowl then fantasy.
is it just as simple as medievil table top just went out of fashion?

or is it obvious and i just dont see it?
am i odd for liking fantasy over 40k?

No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life
It really comes down to your local area.

40k is more popular in general, which I think is due to it being more 'unique'. There are plenty of similar fantasy universes around in games, movies, books and whatever, but 40k's style and fluff is much more distinctive.

The most common complaints I hear:

1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.
2. Something about the magic phase

hmmm maybe it is my local area, but there are so many more places selling 40k stuff over fantasy for the reason fantasy doesnt sell.

is the lore that much worse then 40k?

its been around much longer i thought the fluff would have been better.

maybe its the comparisons people draw between warcraft and warhammer that people dont like.

hell from what i have seen even re casters barely touch fantasy (i hear this on /tg)

The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.

It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).

The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The move from 7th to 8th edition suddenly made units double in size, changed the magic phase dramatically, introduced premeasuring and nerfed a lot of power lists.

It also balanced the game really, really well for a GW game but no one stuck around to see that. GW changed too much too fast and pretty much killed the game. Attendance for the biggest tourney in my state dropped from 100 to what is now 30 (after a few years of building it back up).

The game is great, it is better balanced and tactically deeper than 40k but it'll cost you twice as much to get into and take you twice as long to put all those mooks together and paint them.

mini numbers and time to paint is ok for me, the price is kinda painful but its like that in 40k too.
i heard 8th is the best time for fantasy, is there really so much hate for the new change.

DnD did something similar in 4th ed that people hated they over simplified it suddenly and now its like a new game, is what your saying the same?

do you think it will pick back up?
im still going to play it but i really hope if comes back to life. hell i heard the makers of total war will be making a fantasy RTS im keen to see that total war is very popular so that may help rekindle.

 Okottekoneko wrote:

i have to ask, WHAT HAPPENED?

8th edition changed many aspects of the game. Premeasuring was introduced and charging was nerfed. This dramatically changed the tactics. Taking more models was rewarded. Magic was buffed to the extent that it could win the game on its own. These changes upset vets, and many people left the game. (This has been known to happen when there are changes in games. There has been an exodus from Malifaux with the new rules.)

The increased number of models is both costly in terms of time and money. It takes a long time to assemble and paint all of the models. They also cost a lot of money. With GWs price hikes, Fantasy armies can be very expensive. For example witch elves are now 10 dollars each. Many people run units of 30. That's 300 bucks for a single unit.

Many people see more value in other games. 100 to 150 dollars buys you into most skirmish games. It is more manageable to assemble and paint the force. There is usually room for conversion as well. The game play can be just as compelling, and many skirmish games have campaign rules to advance your character over time.

edit: I see that jonolikespie beat me to the punch.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
No you are not. Fantasy is an awesome game. I must say I prefer it over 40k gameplay wise and for it's superior balance.
The game is not dying at all. In fact, it is almost as popular in the place I live as 40k is. Games like Warmachine on the other hand, well, I have never even seen even a single warmachine player in my entire life
It really comes down to your local area.

It really does vary greatly based on where you live, when I lived in Arkansas Fantasy was the most popular game, now I'm in Maryland Warmachine/Hordes is the most popular game. I'd say there are 2-3 times the amount of WM/H tournaments than 40k and Fantasy put together. I haven't seen a Fantasy game played since moving to MD.

guessing i just live in a bad area for it then.

that and GW's greed and changes are upsetting players.

personally i feel that GW are greedy as hell their stuff most certainly isnt costing anywhere near as much as they charge to manufacter and ship, 3 skullcrushers for $91 is slowed imo.
you can buy them recast same quality for $12 shipped without a pretty box i say this to draw attention to the price difference.

sure large squads cost a bit more but for single models the price is really bad.

personally i see the price turn most prospective players away.

if GW really want increased profits they should drop the prices, lower prices mean increased sales and new players that equals increased profits, i dont see why companies dont see this.

I agree that it is highly dependent on your locale.

There is actually a lot of Fantasy in MD, just not at every store.

8th ed Fantasy is not balanced. Some army books, such as Beastmen, are decidedly inferior to others. This being said, few games are well balanced.

22cthulu, There seems to be a decent amount of WHFB at DropZone in Glen Burnie, if you're in that area.

The big problem with 8E was that all the army books have been trickling out instead of all being released at once. The first few new army books went up against the best (and worst) of the old books, and seemed terribly unbalanced. But as more and more new books came out, those of us who stuck with it discovered the new books were actually pretty well balanced against each other if not against the old books.

The not-so-slow increase in prices isn't helping though. $180 for a single core unit (The $60 box of Witch Elves contains 10 minis for a per-mini cost of $6, not $10) really puts a crimp in the number of people willing to start the game. And without new players, the game WILL slowly die off.

all it seems i can do is invest and hope it picks back up.

anyone in Victoria that can tell me if there are any good cons or events fantasy related in Melbourne?

fyi i live in ballarat.

It's a question I ask sometimes. Now that I've been playing WH40K for a while I wanted to see what else is around, I've always liked the look of WHF.

However, no one plays it. Not in the GW stores and not in the local gaming stores.

I assume it's still strong, as with Games Workshop's tendancy to drop it likes it's hot, if thing don't sell (how long did Gorhica last), so it must still sell, but no one 'seems' to play it.

Even the local GW store stocks WH40K products mostly, and all the cabinate 'display' models are WH40K.

privateer4hire wrote:
22cthulu, There seems to be a decent amount of WHFB at DropZone in Glen Burnie, if you're in that area.

Really? I play at Dropzone. I'm the guy with the Purple/Gold Cygnar. It's true I only go in ever other Saturday but and a couple of Fridays but I've never seen a Fantasy game. Maybe I just keep missing them or they're playing in a different part of the store from me, but in my experience it's 80% WM/H, 15% 40k and 5% Infinity/Flames of War.

I'm not interested in it because you need so many damn models to play, way more than 40k.

I also think the idea of formations is a huge turnoff. Terrain is one of my most favorite parts of the game, and most units can't fit on/in any of the terrain bar the largest of hills in Fantasy. I don't think I've ever seen a Fantasy game where the terrain got used to any great effect, and I've never seen one in person where the terrain had been given ANY kind of aesthetically pleasing setup. Forest elves that march in formation strikes a sour note to me, and I want them to break up and filter through the woods like the guerilla fighters I think they should be.

Still, Fantasy has been on the rise in my area, rather than the reverse. If it keeps going like that, I'll have to cave and buy an army eventually. Probably ogres.

 Vulcan wrote:
The big problem with 8E was that all the army books have been trickling out instead of all being released at once. The first few new army books went up against the best (and worst) of the old books, and seemed terribly unbalanced. But as more and more new books came out, those of us who stuck with it discovered the new books were actually pretty well balanced against each other if not against the old books.

The not-so-slow increase in prices isn't helping though. $180 for a single core unit (The $60 box of Witch Elves contains 10 minis for a per-mini cost of $6, not $10) really puts a crimp in the number of people willing to start the game. And without new players, the game WILL slowly die off.

Wow I really got the price wrong on the elves.

This being said, I do not think I was wrong on everything. The balance is off. Ogre Kingdoms and Dark elves are head and shoulders above Tomb Kings and High Elves. Those are all new books. Beastmen which was one of the later 7th ed books is very weak. They designed it for 8th, but it is still really bad in comparison to other army books.

8th edition did a lot of changing to Fantasy, as has been touched on here, (just from some reading, so not sure how accurate it my take is) there is a huge focus on the magic phase, the movement phase has complicated and become less reliable, A BSB is more or less mandatory, breath weapons where nerfed, there was also a massive cut in army specific magic items (which clashes with fluff) to name but a few. There was also a massive addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to 40k.

On a none game play note their was also a cut in the content of the army books.

 22cthulu wrote:

privateer4hire wrote:
22cthulu, There seems to be a decent amount of WHFB at DropZone in Glen Burnie, if you're in that area.

Really? I play at Dropzone. I'm the guy with the Purple/Gold Cygnar. It's true I only go in ever other Saturday but and a couple of Fridays but I've never seen a Fantasy game. Maybe I just keep missing them or they're playing in a different part of the store from me, but in my experience it's 80% WM/H, 15% 40k and 5% Infinity/Flames of War.

Agreed that WarmaHordes, 40k and Infinity are big players there.

There's a couple of larger fellas and a skinnier fella with blond hair and glasses who are there just about every time I've been there.
Add them to about 3 or 4 other guys who field Bretonnians and Dark Elves regularly---again I only know what I've seen.
I only used to come up on weekends since it's an hour's drive.

WHFB is a much, much better game system than 40k. No argument. Just look at the amount of whinging in the 40k part of the forum/internet, as compared to the WHFB section. Of course, there's still some complaining about WHFB (as there should be, because there are some genuine issues), but no way near as much as 40k (because there's no way near as many issues).

There's nothing inherently "wrong" with WHFB and it's not "worse" than 40k, it's just less popular. Why? Well, kids find guns cooler than swords. 40k therefore sells better and therefore GW gives it more attention.

Sad, but that's the way it is.

SaintofDaemons wrote:
There was also a massive addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to 40k.

You mean 40k has an addition of monstrous creatures and support rules that are very similar to WHFB. 6th Edition took whole heaps of things from 8th edition WHFB, and often made them worse.

Hmmm... I do not think that it was 'too many changes, too fast' that hurt Fantasy.

Locally a largish number of folks that had been playing Fantasy switched to Kings of War when WHFB 8 came out - it was not that the rules had changed, it was that they did not like the rules at all, at all.

And the price kicked it in the teeth - you can get the print Kings of War rulebook, which includes all of the core army lists, for the price of a single army book for WHFB.

Balance in KoW is very good. And most folks are continuing to use the same miniatures that they used to play WHFB.

The price on models is hurting Fantasy as well - increasing the price by halving the number of models did not go unnoticed.

But I am biased, it has been almost two years since I purchased any GW at all - and that was terrain models at a going out of business sale.

But I have been playing two or three games of Kings of War every week. So I have been getting my fantasy mass combat fix.

The Auld Grump

 Okottekoneko wrote:
all it seems i can do is invest and hope it picks back up.

anyone in Victoria that can tell me if there are any good cons or events fantasy related in Melbourne?

fyi i live in ballarat.

Try Kings of War. The rules and army lists are free and it seems to play a lot quicker and cleaner then WFB, and pretty much supports your WFB models. See if you can get a mate to try it out with their WFB army...

too many expensive models. high model count is annoying. building and painting so many grunts is annoying. ranking things up is annoying.

 Ravenous D wrote:
1. Needing buckets of models that will never do anything.

This. WHFB has way too many models that are nothing more than wound counters on a giant block of infantry. Even if you buy third-party models and avoid paying GW's obscene prices you still have to build and paint all of those boring unit fillers, and since they have to fit into nice neat blocks your opportunities for interesting conversions are pretty limited. 40k (and similar games) may have the same problems with per-model price but at least you have a lot fewer of them in your army.

I also think that the recent surge in historical plastics and beginner-friendly rulesets from Warlord etc have had an effect in reducing the player base.

Historical games used to be (unfairly) seen as the preserve of old men in dusty church halls, with their home-printed versions of whatever overcomplicated system they'd been playing for the last 50 years, so if you wanted a 'mass battle' game, then Fantasy was pretty much the go to ruleset.

So whilst KoW is certainly providing direct head-to-head competition, I think that Hail Caesar, Black Powder and Pike & Shotte are also helping to drain away Fantasy's prospective playerbase.

someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.

perhaps thats part of the issue too, maybe the shift in player ages has hurt the game too, say many older long time players just dont have the time anymore to play and have dropped off and there just wasnt enough appeal to the younger wargamers in fantasy to have them invest.

i hvae to admit tho they dont do much to try and advertise and make it more appealing to the next gens do they, warhammer 40k everywhere but barely any fantasy.

also i was in my local store yesterday grabbing a cube of dice so when i am away i can sit with my younger brother and try a learn the game with some shoddy paper minis, and when i was in the shop waiting to be served i had a look at the warhammer wall and there was no fantasy there at all they have 2 full bookshelves of 40k and half of a tiny one with some fantasy on it tucked in the corner with a fridge on one side and herocliks on the other, i suppose this is because of the lack of players in my area, but its kept far away from the 40k and warmachine minis people are going to come in looking at wargames and not even see fantasy, this would explain why the playerbase may not be growing in my local does anyone else know any places that do this too?

Nothing wrong with fantasy, 8th is by far and large the best edition to date. Having said that its a high modelcount game regardless of what army you play (when compared to 40k) and its simply more expensive.

 Okottekoneko wrote:
someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.

That's actually a very good point, in my area the average age of a 40k player seems to be anywhere from 12 to early twenties while the few fantasy players around range from early twenties to like 40.

With GWs recent mindset that they are selling toys to kids that really doesn't help the fantasy community at all.

I know in my area 40k is infinitely more popular than Fantasy, which sucks because I've always preferred Fantasy since it seems to involve more tactics and have a lot more diversity than 40k where half of your armies are fighting for the same side (to say nothing of the proliferation of Space Marine armies).

I've heard that outside of the UK, 40k is more popular because sci-fi and tanks and lasers, while in the UK and Europe Fantasy is more popular, but I can't cite anything. I heard once years ago that in North America, the sale of Space Marines alone was more than all of Fantasy combined.

I don't get it myself. Fantasy seems like the superior game and I'd much rather play that, but I went with 40k because of how many people there are who play it at the FLGS. No point in starting Fantasy and having nobody to play with.

 Okottekoneko wrote:
someone made the point that kids like guns more then swords.

I doubt this is a very big factor. 40k's obsession with swords is one of the few things that sets it apart from other scifi universes, and assault units/armies are popular.