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I look forward to proving myself! I don't take it personally. after everything that has happened, I can understand your trepidation.

hearthstoneminis wrote:
I look forward to proving myself! I don't take it personally. after everything that has happened, I can understand your trepidation.

I'm really looking forward to seeing these minis!

Something interesting in the comments, responding to the legalese update...

Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago

I could waste time typing a reply if you had at least typed my name right. you mispelled it twice. "cooperation" with you costed me two months of game design time that I will never get back. You failed to sign the contract You accuse me of breaching (while you had my work delivered to you in advance, and I even supplied the artwork for the aborted gnome skirmish game that you failed to provide on that kickstarter launch because, you told me, the artist left you to go on holiday with his girlfriend. I did not side with anyone. I gave you my work within the contract time limits, and pulled out of a disastrous ks campaign where backers were insulted and previous artists working for you contacted me saying they were never paid for their work. My honorability and professionalism stands before everyone's eyes in the industry. Any backers who would like to contact me, please feel free to do so at andreasfiligoi@gmail.com.

Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago

And by the way saying that i suggested a name change or any other info to a rival company is something you invented out of whole cloth. I have known of the other company here, on the comments section of this ks.

Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago

by the way, I had ZERO interests in the minis. I just pledged here out of good will and to get the KS rolling, since we were supposed to do work together. I even persuaded a good friend of mine (Massimo on this KS) to send in his small pledge to help. This is how I was planning to sabotage your KS - giving you over 170 dollars of pledges, free artwork on the gnome KS, and respecting my (unsigned by you) contract and delivering the game text a few days before the deadline.

Another backer commented, on the main page:

I sent another email to KS for Susan's violation of the TOS. Their reply:
"Our Integrity team is aware of this project."

So... this is now how I envision kickstarter's "Integrity team."


Edit - tags needed fixing

I wonder if their "Integrity" team is aware of this thread over here?

20 pages and going strong, as well as over 25 thousand views. As their "Integrity" team sits around twiddling their thumbs, the entire company is looking like enablers.

The gaming community is a die hard bunch. This is turning into a PR nightmare for KS. I am in a few KS right now, but won't be getting involved in anymore until KS shows that they are serious about their so called "integrity"

I can't even believe what I'm reading right now.

You can't make this gak up.

*Sticks some Orville Redenbacher's in the microwave*

Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.

And PLENTY of fan boy pledgers seem to accept breaches of integrity as just part of doing business, and as long as they eventually get their toys are happy being lied to and misled. "Well the situation changed." "Other companies are worse!" Frankly I'm disgusted with it.

Companies like this one are truly heinous, and do make others look 'better' for certain values of 'better', but I'll be fethed if I'm going to accept being treated like gak after paying money and then be quiet and complacent about it. I'm just not wired that way.

 CptJake wrote:
Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.

Well, the trick is to find the companies that match your buying temperament and wallet, ennit?

It's a pretty simple matter to read the comments and updates of a creator's previous KS. If the creator delivers within a time period that's reasonable to *you* and the comments are up to *your* level of satisfaction, then you've found a project you can or at least might back.

If it's the creator's first project, expect delays. If "you're not wired that way", then ignore them all. You'll miss out on some good values, but rarely will you miss out on a delayed project. Dwarven Forge is the only exception I can think of, but even Reaper had delays with its first KS. (And, speaking of value, know the difference between "value" and "too good to be true".)

Myself, after two delayed boardgames, won't back non-miniature boardgame KS anymore. Unlike miniatures, it easy to find a boardgame at any OLGS at a good discount. I also won't back product design or technology projects because the product might be obsolete or available from a retail competitor by the time it's completed after delays. I also see terrain and bases as a more competitive product than miniatures (one castle is pretty much like another and cork works fine for my tabletop boardgame miniatures) so expect to be more particular about which projects I back (DF yes, UpWorks no).

KS is not a store. But the good news is that, if you don't like to make your purchases on KS, there *are* stores out there to give you better service -- and sometimes prices. Do your research and shop wisely!

ced1106 wrote:
Myself, after two delayed boardgames, won't back non-miniature boardgame KS anymore.

So long as you do eventually get what you paid for, is a delay really a big deal?

I tend to just pledge and then forget about it until something shows up in the mail.

ced1106 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.

Well, the trick is to find the companies that match your buying temperament and wallet, ennit?

It's a pretty simple matter to read the comments and updates of a creator's previous KS. If the creator delivers within a time period that's reasonable to *you* and the comments are up to *your* level of satisfaction, then you've found a project you can or at least might back.

If it's the creator's first project, expect delays. If "you're not wired that way", then ignore them all. You'll miss out on some good values, but rarely will you miss out on a delayed project. Dwarven Forge is the only exception I can think of, but even Reaper had delays with its first KS. (And, speaking of value, know the difference between "value" and "too good to be true".)

Myself, after two delayed boardgames, won't back non-miniature boardgame KS anymore. Unlike miniatures, it easy to find a boardgame at any OLGS at a good discount. I also won't back product design or technology projects because the product might be obsolete or available from a retail competitor by the time it's completed after delays. I also see terrain and bases as a more competitive product than miniatures (one castle is pretty much like another and cork works fine for my tabletop boardgame miniatures) so expect to be more particular about which projects I back (DF yes, UpWorks no).

KS is not a store. But the good news is that, if you don't like to make your purchases on KS, there *are* stores out there to give you better service -- and sometimes prices. Do your research and shop wisely!

KS is not a store, except when companies expressly use it as a store to accept pre-orders. That ship has sailed a while ago, to pretend differently is ignorant.

As far as delays go, I urge you to read my whole post and find the word 'delay' or 'late' in it. I don't think you will. Focusing your response as if that is what I was complaining about shows you have missed my point. Perhaps I was not clear, it happens.

Late/Delays if properly communicated and explained are not an issue to me. Lying about delays/reasons or concealing delays however are examples (but not the only ones) of the integrity breaches I posted about. Telling me you will start shipping on X, then waiting 6 weeks after X with no communication while folks are wondering and asking how shipping is going, just to be eventually told "Oh, something came up and we have not yet started shipping' is an issue, not the delay itself. It may be a subtle distinction, but it is one worth making.

Kickstarter is now a full fledged casino in my mind. You take a gamble whenever you back a project. You can minimize your chance of loss by backing a company that has had successful projects in the past, but that still isn't a guarantee that you will get anything. Thinking that Kickstarter or your credit card company will do anything for you if a project goes belly up is the same a believing a casino will give you back the money you lost at the roulette table. This is going to sour the gaming community on future projects, no doubt, and that's not good. Some projects need a funding boost, and it's too bad if good projects never become a reality because of Kickstarters inability to police itself.

 inquisitorlewis wrote:
I wonder if their "Integrity" team is aware of this thread over here?

20 pages and going strong, as well as over 25 thousand views. As their "Integrity" team sits around twiddling their thumbs, the entire company is looking like enablers.

The gaming community is a die hard bunch. This is turning into a PR nightmare for KS. I am in a few KS right now, but won't be getting involved in anymore until KS shows that they are serious about their so called "integrity"

Agreed 100% that this reflects very poorly on Kickstarter.

As far as the whole "Kickstarter is not a store" mantra, I view it as one of those lies where if it gets repeated often enough, people will believe it to be true. It is actually really poor form, ced1106, to keep repeating that propaganda in relation to this project, which is, by all indications, a scam.

Kickstarter says they are not a store. CptJake explains better than I why that is a falsehood. While that slogan makes sense to help define what kickstarter claims to want to be, using to dismiss any and all consumer concerns regardless of context (which I've seen a lot, not just here) is what makes blind repetition a big problem.

As for this project, several backers posted in comments yesterday that reports are getting made to the FTC. One backer stated that he has information indicating that at least one other kickstarter project is under FTC investigation, which is a great sign.

ETA-

 JudgeShamgar wrote:
Kickstarter is now a full fledged casino in my mind. You take a gamble whenever you back a project. You can minimize your chance of loss by backing a company that has had successful projects in the past, but that still isn't a guarantee that you will get anything. Thinking that Kickstarter or your credit card company will do anything for you if a project goes belly up is the same a believing a casino will give you back the money you lost at the roulette table. This is going to sour the gaming community on future projects, no doubt, and that's not good. Some projects need a funding boost, and it's too bad if good projects never become a reality because of Kickstarters inability to police itself.

Except that casinos don't pretend to be a happy place where everyone is all good. And, casinos can't just completely stack decks and rig slots in their favor. There are rules as to just how much they can slant the odds. Kickstarter is more like walking into a shiny, pretty casino and having no idea who are conmen and who are casino employees.

 Gymnogyps wrote:
Except that casinos don't pretend to be a happy place where everyone is all good. And, casinos can't just completely stack decks and rig slots in their favor. There are rules as to just how much they can slant the odds. Kickstarter is more like walking into a shiny, pretty casino and having no idea who are conmen and who are casino employees.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/sounds-of-slot-machines-can-manipulate-players-researchers-say/2013/07/06/bfbd34ec-e3f8-11e2-80eb-3145e2994a55_story.html

Casinos want you to believe they are happy places. They can and will swap out the shoe on a game of blackjack if a player gets into a winning streak. The real difference is that you know all the employees in a casino are designed to help you loose money, i.e. they are conmen.

Kickstarter by contrast wants you to believe they have some kind of responsibility to you the backer. However according to this whole scenario they really don't care about you the backer, they really don't care about the project, or it's creators either. They are interested in the fee they can impose for presenting the project to the world, and connecting backers, and creators. When things are going well it's not a problem for them, when things go bad, it's not their problem.

Just like a casino.

Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.

Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.

Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.

Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".

 Lockark wrote:
Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.

Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.

Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.

Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".

My post had nothing to do with backers. I was comparing the risk of using a casino to using Kickstarter.

Short story is, sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose.

EDIT- I can compare the people who run Kickstarter to conmen when they allowed a second project from ADW that people warned them was a scam. They sat on their hands, and refused to take action when they knew the project was suspect. That inaction is just as bad as if they had aided ADW in their scam.

Sorry Mods for the derail, I'm done.

 JudgeShamgar wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.

Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.

Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.

Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".

My post had nothing to do with backers. I was comparing the risk of using a casino to using Kickstarter.

Short story is, sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose.

EDIT- I can compare the people who run Kickstarter to conmen when they allowed a second project from ADW that people warned them was a scam. They sat on their hands, and refused to take action when they knew the project was suspect. That inaction is just as bad as if they had aided ADW in their scam.

Sorry Mods for the derail, I'm done.

I read your post as implying that every kick starter and it's creators are a casino ran by conmen employees. If this is not what you meant then I apologize for my reaction. Because a lot of good things have came out of kickstarter.

The implication that all kick starters are a casino stacked ageist you is a pretty bold statement that I found insulting.

my apologies for the missunderstanding.

Hello. This is Susan Taylor. I am handling fulfillment of this KS Campaign moving froward.

as long as is moving froward

Other than a rather suspect claim... has there been any sign of progress?

It is not often that I can look at a miniature, WIP or not, and be able to honestly say that I can do better....

But I can do better.

With Playdoh.

Maybe while blindfolded.

On the bottom of a swimming pool.

Surrounded by sharks with frikkin lasers on their heads!

Or something like that, at any rate.

The Auld Grump

Hell, and they're *apparently* sanding down other people's sculpts to do it. Or did they expect us just to forget that?

If your sculptor sent you those, and you thought a little resurfacing was all they needed, neither you nor your sculptor knows what anatomy is.

I mean, the Gomphy's alright, but dat wulf...

Shadowraven on the Reaper forums posted the link to the Canadian national fraud center. Good luck!

Here we go. This is the Canadian national fraud center. Which is where the RCMP send you to to report fraud online.

https://www.antifraudcentre-centreantifraude.ca/english/reportit_howtoreportfraud.html

Update 122: The dog ate the castilene

 Goblyn wrote:
Update 122: The dog ate the castilene

Don't just bump threads.

At the risk of thread-bumping, I'm genuinely curious to know if there has been any movement on this - either from Kickstarter's "Integrity Team", authorities, the project creators, or a dissatisfied backer movement.

A little OT, but some explanation on how scammers scam: "They are looking for the most gullible victims they can find, to maximise return on their effort."

http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/428151/why_nigerian_scammers_say_they_re_from_nigeria/

I made a DMCA complaint through Kickstarter. They can't be bothered to respond to it or even acknowledge i exist. I understand this is a tiny amount of money for kickstarter but how can anyone trust them when they go totally silent on this. These people used their system for theft. If they continue to allow these people to use their system to defaud backers and now banks and credit cards, that makes them accessories to the act. I am unimpressed by kickstarter here.

the new sculpts

...yeesh,

I see time did not perfect those sculpts.

Let's not forget, that 'Lars' apparently quit

However...

These look a lot like his style of sculpting =P

Yeah, I'm pretty sure these were "sculpted" by the same person as previously; it really looks like the same style. Actually, that very last bird, the one with the enormous foot who looks like he's sitting down or something, haven't we already see that somewhere? It looks awfully familiar.

It's garbage. But that's what you're buying, since "kickstarter is not a store", so you, as a consumer, have to like it. Enjoy. Free market! Yay! :eyeroll:

LOL...that's either the worst frog I've ever seen, or the best Walter Matthau.

I have to say, those sculpts didn't come out quite as bad as they appeared from the WIPs.



Having said that, they're still nowhere near the sort of quality that would make them remotely acceptable as a commercial release. Never mind the claims of crafting a premium product...