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Yoyoyo wrote:
Given there's 19 pages of this, was a consensus produced at some point on whether the Riptide is a balance issue without the use of Nova Charge?

Yes, I did say "dakka dakka" and "consensus" in the same sentence. I know.

There ain't no such thing as consensus on this thread. What we have is people on both sides of the debate restating their statements multiple times, unwilling to budge on their positions.

I'm guessing a lot of these Tau players just never see the have-not codices. With this thing in the Tau inventory, it would take epically terrible rolls to ever lose to BA or GKs. Watching a Tau game play out against Orks or BA is really sad. I'm still in awe over the above posted battle report where the GK player won. I have never seen this or even heard of it. The flowchart is always DKs die to Stormsurge/firewarriors and everything else dies to pie plates of doom or mass rending HBCs.

What's your opinion of a Nova-less Riptide, Martel?

A lot better, stacking only a 5++/5+++ save makes it weaker vs AP2, but I'd rather see 3+ armor on the thing to make it more vulnerable against the field. Maybe make the IA base AP3 as well so super expensive units that are already trash aren't made completely unfieldable by this thing. I mean SG and terminators and meganobz are already joke units, and this thing just makes it worse.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm guessing a lot of these Tau players just never see the have-not codices

Over the years , I have played every army with the exception of works, DE, SOB, demons, and.different flavors of space marines like.white scars, black templars or dark angels.

But if you talk about across the table, well I play more theoryhammer than warhammer nowadays. The fact that my primary faction (tau) is one that a great number of posters would love to see squatted next has more.to do with my saltiness than just about anything else. Arguing a point with people that can be convinced or are willing to shift their perspective at least as much as I am willing to compromise would help to lessen that considerably.

I don't want it squatted. I'd much rather see that happen to Eldar, as they are still the primary offender for making miserable games. But really, just some balance is what I'm looking for. Riptides should not be able to survive fire that kills a Warhound at their price point.

 Bach wrote:

I agree, but I think every codex has 'auto-includes' units. I am not saying that Riptides can't be effective, just that their abilities do not rise to the undercosted/overpowered status. I think that stating that they need changing is extreme, being supported by stories that cannot be verified. Yes videos aren't the all be all, but they are better than just another extreme story or perception.

I am still in awe of this one. The fact that this guy thinks the Riptide isn't OP/Under costed ruins any semblance of respect I have for his opinions on anything else.

225pts maxed out, gets to shoot high Strength AP2 pie plates, gets to fire Ignores LOS/Cover missiles, can easily give its pieplate Ignores cover.....T6 5 wounds 2+ armor, 5++ and 5+++ with the ability to buff its invul to 3++.......

In regards to auto-includes, what would you consider to be auto-includes in the ork codex? The only thing I can say I take every battle is Boyz, but I am pretty much required to do that anyway LOL.

Warbikers maybe? S3 T5 models scare you?

Meganobz? 40pt T4 2W models are hard to kill with your S8 Ap2 pie plates?

Tankbustas with their 6+ Armor? Seriously you said that "every codex has auto-includes" so what is the Ork Auto-include? And how does it fair versus a Riptide? or a riptide wing?

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

I agree, but I think every codex has 'auto-includes' units. I am not saying that Riptides can't be effective, just that their abilities do not rise to the undercosted/overpowered status. I think that stating that they need changing is extreme, being supported by stories that cannot be verified. Yes videos aren't the all be all, but they are better than just another extreme story or perception.

I am still in awe of this one. The fact that this guy thinks the Riptide isn't OP/Under costed ruins any semblance of respect I have for his opinions on anything else.

225pts maxed out, gets to shoot high Strength AP2 pie plates, gets to fire Ignores LOS/Cover missiles, can easily give its pieplate Ignores cover.....T6 5 wounds 2+ armor, 5++ and 5+++ with the ability to buff its invul to 3++.......

In regards to auto-includes, what would you consider to be auto-includes in the ork codex? The only thing I can say I take every battle is Boyz, but I am pretty much required to do that anyway LOL.

Warbikers maybe? S3 T5 models scare you?

Meganobz? 40pt T4 2W models are hard to kill with your S8 Ap2 pie plates?

Tankbustas with their 6+ Armor? Seriously you said that "every codex has auto-includes" so what is the Ork Auto-include? And how does it fair versus a Riptide? or a riptide wing?

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is available to everyone.

take Riptides!

^ Heh. Exalted!

Martel732 wrote:
I don't want it squatted. I'd much rather see that happen to Eldar, as they are still the primary offender for making miserable games. But really, just some balance is what I'm looking for. Riptides should not be able to survive fire that kills a Warhound at their price point.

Nothing should be squatted. Just adjusted and often the adjustement should be minimal and taking in account the edition.
Minimal things. Riptide with 3+ and no FnP, scatbikes 1/3 HW and 1 troop choice for avery other troop choice. WK +100 (or more) points. Tune down spiders.

People would say "is not enough" but would rapidly realise that several small nerfs have a synergic effect.

Think about the Tactical Genius* that wrote the 6th edition IG codex - a perfectly balanced version for 5th edition.

Well not even that. Vendetta needed to go up to 145-150, they went up to 170. Orgyns are still terrible.
But you know. It was a rushed crap to change the name because of Chapterhouse I guess.


*I hate always pick up on designers but just think about the Russes in that book. Lumbering Behemoth removal and point costs random. Some went more appropriate, some absolutely less. Is something written by someone that never played guard. That relentless catachan sergeant costs 55 point. This is bad guesswork. Is painful to read.

 Bach wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"it's not anecdotal when you have a video of a battle report. "

A single battle report, or even five, is the definition of anecdotal. How much grim detail do we need to go into?

Anecdotal evidence is more about hearsay, like a story you want to share. A video, memorializing a game played, would be a form of hard fact. Hard fact vs hearsay, hmm..

Oh wow, do you want some extra mufflers for your hands? They might not be blocking out everyone. And whilst we are at it, how about a loudspeaker so you can scream LALALALALA even louder?

Dear all the reasonable Tau players, it is people like this whom get you the bad reputation.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Oh wow, do you want some extra mufflers for your hands? They might not be blocking out everyone. And whilst we are at it, how about a loudspeaker so you can scream LALALALALA even louder?

Dear all the reasonable Tau players, it is people like this whom get you the bad reputation.

That's wasn't really necessary, was it? I think he gets the point now (hopefully) - everyone's accounts of the Riptide are anecdotal, they just all add up and have similar outcomes, which makes the idea of the Riptide being OP more believable due to the collective. A single report wouldn't suggest a reliable conclusion.

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Oh wow, do you want some extra mufflers for your hands? They might not be blocking out everyone. And whilst we are at it, how about a loudspeaker so you can scream LALALALALA even louder?

Dear all the reasonable Tau players, it is people like this whom get you the bad reputation.

That's wasn't really necessary, was it? I think he gets the point now (hopefully) - everyone's accounts of the Riptide are anecdotal, they just all add up and have similar outcomes, which makes the idea of the Riptide being OP more believable due to the collective. A single report wouldn't suggest a reliable conclusion.

G.A

A bit passive aggressive, but he has a point. The guy clearly thinks "one video from Front Line Gaming" > every other experience in existence.

He's just using anecdotal incorrectly. But in two of those missions the opponent clearly was playing around the Riptides completely. That still leaves them as the elephant in the corner; they can just be overcome sometimes.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

I agree, but I think every codex has 'auto-includes' units. I am not saying that Riptides can't be effective, just that their abilities do not rise to the undercosted/overpowered status. I think that stating that they need changing is extreme, being supported by stories that cannot be verified. Yes videos aren't the all be all, but they are better than just another extreme story or perception.

I am still in awe of this one. The fact that this guy thinks the Riptide isn't OP/Under costed ruins any semblance of respect I have for his opinions on anything else.

225pts maxed out, gets to shoot high Strength AP2 pie plates, gets to fire Ignores LOS/Cover missiles, can easily give its pieplate Ignores cover.....T6 5 wounds 2+ armor, 5++ and 5+++ with the ability to buff its invul to 3++.......

In regards to auto-includes, what would you consider to be auto-includes in the ork codex? The only thing I can say I take every battle is Boyz, but I am pretty much required to do that anyway LOL.

Warbikers maybe? S3 T5 models scare you?

Meganobz? 40pt T4 2W models are hard to kill with your S8 Ap2 pie plates?

Tankbustas with their 6+ Armor? Seriously you said that "every codex has auto-includes" so what is the Ork Auto-include? And how does it fair versus a Riptide? or a riptide wing?

If you are looking for comparable points and want to technically defeat Riptide with that unit you could use Megaknobs in a battle wagon. Comes to about the same points and with AV 14, the wagon will statistically get them there unscathed (Riptide wont be able to out manuever the front arc of the vehicle for most of the table length) . At BS 3, the Riptide will be missing quite often and when it does hit with a pie plate it gets one roll ... ands needs a 5 to glance , assuming Nova charge, a 6 for regular pie plate. Those are not great odds to stop the battlewagon before it is up in its face. Also, assuming the Riptide Nova charges every turn, it will statiscally lose a wound every 5 turns (FNP factored in). This means that, statistically, the Megaknobs should be able to get into combat more oftern than not. In assault, Megaknobs best the riptide everytime, by at least 1-2 wounds, even under the most optimum conditions for the Riptide (3++ and FNP). Losing combat forces morale checks on the riptide at least twice before it can statistically get the upper hand from the loss of a mega knob. This is assuming best case scenario for Nova Charge for every turn of Assault. If there is so much as one hiccup with Nova charge for the 3++, Megaknobs just pull ahead further. Also, Riptides are not fearless and can easily flee combat which could send them off the table on the 2d6 fallback and their best case scenario is regrouping and snap shooting next turn.


Clearly we have here an Ork unit that can beat a Riptide for about the same points. It can't do it instantly, but the riptide can't statistically destroy it quickly either. So there you go.

Does that make it an auto include for you? Well I guess if you were hell bent on killing a riptide.

Martel732 wrote:
He's just using anecdotal incorrectly. But in two of those missions the opponent clearly was playing around the Riptides completely. That still leaves them as the elephant in the corner; they can just be overcome sometimes.

I was using it correctly. A story told on a message board is just an anecdote while a video represents the fact that a game happened, you can watch it whether you believe me or not, and the outcome is something you can see regardless of whatever I say. And these outcomes that you can watch for yourself instead of just taking my word for it (like I have to do for these QQ Riptide stories), have some contrast with the assertion that Riptides are undercosted/overpowered. Even when I can show statistically, something from a bottom tier codex (Orks) can technically match it, one on one, probably still QQs.

You've got a stories that Riptides are too strong it it upsets you. I have stories, and as a Tau player, riptides are sometimes great, can be good but a large portion of the time, they're just ...OK. If I were to summarize the experience with playing with riptides it's this.. they are not consistent. Yes they are hard to kill but I generally need them alive several turns to get a favorable outcome in the shooting phase. They have high potential but seldom fully realized. And that is the the Tau army in a nut shell. Some players wanting to nerf it, are judging the unit at it's highest possible potential.. which most Tau players won't experience with common frequency. How many games have you played against Tau players with Riptides? Because I can tell you, for every good game I have using them, I have a so-so game and then there are games where they are little more than paper weights I spent 225 points on. Does that depend on the the army I play against? Yes. Does that depend on my dice rolls? Yes. Does it depend on my skill level vs my opponent skill level? Yes. It's an auto include because it has high potential, but high potential does not necessarily equate to high levels of favorable outcomes using it. It's like a carrot dangling in front of you, just like the Stormsurge. This is why you don't see them sweeping tournaments as one might would imagine after reading some of the hyperbole and extreme perceptions on this thread.

 Bach wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

I agree, but I think every codex has 'auto-includes' units. I am not saying that Riptides can't be effective, just that their abilities do not rise to the undercosted/overpowered status. I think that stating that they need changing is extreme, being supported by stories that cannot be verified. Yes videos aren't the all be all, but they are better than just another extreme story or perception.

I am still in awe of this one. The fact that this guy thinks the Riptide isn't OP/Under costed ruins any semblance of respect I have for his opinions on anything else.

225pts maxed out, gets to shoot high Strength AP2 pie plates, gets to fire Ignores LOS/Cover missiles, can easily give its pieplate Ignores cover.....T6 5 wounds 2+ armor, 5++ and 5+++ with the ability to buff its invul to 3++.......

In regards to auto-includes, what would you consider to be auto-includes in the ork codex? The only thing I can say I take every battle is Boyz, but I am pretty much required to do that anyway LOL.

Warbikers maybe? S3 T5 models scare you?

Meganobz? 40pt T4 2W models are hard to kill with your S8 Ap2 pie plates?

Tankbustas with their 6+ Armor? Seriously you said that "every codex has auto-includes" so what is the Ork Auto-include? And how does it fair versus a Riptide? or a riptide wing?

If you are looking for comparable points and want to technically defeat Riptide with that unit you could use Megaknobs in a battle wagon. Comes to about the same points and with AV 14, the wagon will statically get them there unscathed (Riptide wont be able to out manuever the front arc of the vehicle for most of the table length) . At BS 3, the Riptide will be missing quite often and when it does hit with a pie plate it gets one roll ... ands needs a 5 to glance , assuming Nova charge, a 6 for regular pie plate. Those are not great odds to stop the battlewagon before it is up in its face. Also, assuming the Riptide Nova charges every turn, it will statiscally lose a wound every 5 turns (FNP factored in). This means that, statically, the Megaknobs should be able to get into combat more oftern than not. In assault, Megaknobs best the riptide everytime, by at least 1-2 wounds, even under the most optimum conditions for the Riptide (3++ and FNP). Losing combat forces morale checks on the riptide at least twice before it can statically get the upper hand from the loss of a mega knob. This is assuming best case scenario for Nova Charge for every turn of Assault. If there is so much as one hiccup with Nova charge for the 3++, Megaknobs just pull ahead further. Also, Riptides are not fearless and can easily flee combat which could send them off the table on the 2d6 fallback and their best case scenario is regrouping and snap shooting next turn.


Clearly we have here an Ork unit that can statisticaly beat a Riptide for about the same points. It can't do it instantly, but the riptide can't statically destroy it quickly either. So there you go.

Does that make it an auto include for you? Well I guess if you were hell bent on killing a riptide.

Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?

So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or in other words, my 255pts of Orks versus your 225pts of Riptide barely tied the stupid thing up for 1 turn. Thats also ignoring the fact that the Tau can very easily swamp a Battlewagon in S5 Ignores LOS and Cover missiles which will make it die of HP stripping or possibly immobilizing/destroying it (Open topped +1 to damage rolls so you need a 5+ to immobilize/destroy).

SemperMortis wrote:
Fun stuff math isn't it?

Math is so 1995 does not belong to modern 40k.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

I agree, but I think every codex has 'auto-includes' units. I am not saying that Riptides can't be effective, just that their abilities do not rise to the undercosted/overpowered status. I think that stating that they need changing is extreme, being supported by stories that cannot be verified. Yes videos aren't the all be all, but they are better than just another extreme story or perception.

I am still in awe of this one. The fact that this guy thinks the Riptide isn't OP/Under costed ruins any semblance of respect I have for his opinions on anything else.

225pts maxed out, gets to shoot high Strength AP2 pie plates, gets to fire Ignores LOS/Cover missiles, can easily give its pieplate Ignores cover.....T6 5 wounds 2+ armor, 5++ and 5+++ with the ability to buff its invul to 3++.......

In regards to auto-includes, what would you consider to be auto-includes in the ork codex? The only thing I can say I take every battle is Boyz, but I am pretty much required to do that anyway LOL.

Warbikers maybe? S3 T5 models scare you?

Meganobz? 40pt T4 2W models are hard to kill with your S8 Ap2 pie plates?

Tankbustas with their 6+ Armor? Seriously you said that "every codex has auto-includes" so what is the Ork Auto-include? And how does it fair versus a Riptide? or a riptide wing?

If you are looking for comparable points and want to technically defeat Riptide with that unit you could use Megaknobs in a battle wagon. Comes to about the same points and with AV 14, the wagon will statically get them there unscathed (Riptide wont be able to out manuever the front arc of the vehicle for most of the table length) . At BS 3, the Riptide will be missing quite often and when it does hit with a pie plate it gets one roll ... ands needs a 5 to glance , assuming Nova charge, a 6 for regular pie plate. Those are not great odds to stop the battlewagon before it is up in its face. Also, assuming the Riptide Nova charges every turn, it will statiscally lose a wound every 5 turns (FNP factored in). This means that, statically, the Megaknobs should be able to get into combat more oftern than not. In assault, Megaknobs best the riptide everytime, by at least 1-2 wounds, even under the most optimum conditions for the Riptide (3++ and FNP). Losing combat forces morale checks on the riptide at least twice before it can statically get the upper hand from the loss of a mega knob. This is assuming best case scenario for Nova Charge for every turn of Assault. If there is so much as one hiccup with Nova charge for the 3++, Megaknobs just pull ahead further. Also, Riptides are not fearless and can easily flee combat which could send them off the table on the 2d6 fallback and their best case scenario is regrouping and snap shooting next turn.


Clearly we have here an Ork unit that can statisticaly beat a Riptide for about the same points. It can't do it instantly, but the riptide can't statically destroy it quickly either. So there you go.

Does that make it an auto include for you? Well I guess if you were hell bent on killing a riptide.

Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?

So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or in other words, my 255pts of Orks versus your 225pts of Riptide barely tied the stupid thing up for 1 turn. Thats also ignoring the fact that the Tau can very easily swamp a Battlewagon in S5 Ignores LOS and Cover missiles which will make it die of HP stripping or possibly immobilizing/destroying it (Open topped +1 to damage rolls so you need a 5+ to immobilize/destroy).

Erm, how is our riptide managing to hit the rear armor of your tank if you are flat outing towards it?

You are invalidating your own argument by attributing to the offending model abilities that it lacks. Just because SMS can ignore Line of Sight does not mean that it doesn't hit the armor rating nearest to it. If someone claimed that it is capable of doing so, then they were cheating, sorry. There is one formation that is capable of such a feat, the Optimized Stealth Cadre. However, that means that only the Ghostkeel or the stealth suits in the formation can do so, not any riptides that happen to be near it.

lol semper..

No wonder you face OP riptides. They can shoot rear armor, get 3++ AND nova-charged ion accelerator, apparently ignore cover on the Ion Accelerator, never fail the nova charge, don't fail LD checks and trash a full squad of nobz in CC.
Maybe you should just play it out a bit sometime.. put the 2 units on a table and play it a few times, you'll see how it works out (hint: The riptide dies much more often than not).

Note that doesn't mean that Orcs have a good fighting chance against a competitive Tau list, it's just about this small example.

Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.

I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the megaknobs in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?

Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?

So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.

The comment about the smart missiles summarizes the problem with this thread. Lots of mis perception, which is unfortunate because it shows that some of the comments here are being fueled by gaming experiences where the rules are not being followed or not understood.

Also, you got the average wrong on the riptide attacks, it would go something like this against megaknobs:

3 attacks X .5 = 1.5 hits X .83 to wound = 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. That's a lot closer to 1 than it is to 2. So on average, it kills a megaknob every two turns. And the Mega knobs can generate enough wounds to best the Riptide in combat for two rounds, for sure, even after suffering 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. Morale checks do matter as a fallback with the riptide is at it'scan go off it's own table edge is game over. So Megaknobs can win this and for comparable points.

In addition you mention the 'plethora of other Tau units". That's interesting because when we add in other Tau units, we are then talking about armies and codexes as being issues rather than just one unit, as you suggest with the Overwatch. Whole different issue.

I'm sorry, I wouldn't do this any other time but:

Mega knobs

Meganobz*, before you nearly make me go into a giggling fit again


Now keeping a straight face for the argument

 Bach wrote:


I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the Meganobz in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?

I think the point is that the Riptide is undercosted because it can deal with that unit pair in a lot of scenarios, often without the other unit getting a chance to dish out their main bag of damage to it.

I'd also quit using mathematics for 40k. There's way too much chance involved for an average to even be of any use - it's much better to go off a collective group of battle reports and experiences with a unit to determine if a unit is too powerful for its worth, as this will also give you data from a wide array of scenarios and other happenings on the battlefield that may have affected how the Riptide performs.

G.A

 General Annoyance wrote:
I'm sorry, I wouldn't do this any other time but:

Mega knobs

Meganobz*, before you nearly make me go into a giggling fit again


Now keeping a straight face for the argument

 Bach wrote:


I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the Meganobz in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?

I think the point is that the Riptide is undercosted because it can deal with that unit pair in a lot of scenarios, often without the other unit getting a chance to dish out their main bag of damage to it.

I'd also quit using mathematics for 40k. There's way too much chance involved for an average to even be of any use - it's much better to go off a collective group of battle reports and experiences with a unit to determine if a unit is too powerful for its worth, as this will also give you data from a wide array of scenarios and other happenings on the battlefield that may have affected how the Riptide performs.

G.A

Megaknobz - got it

You're not wrong on units not being able to unload damage but I don't think that a riptide ought to be the posterboy for that problem, if we're talking assault units in general. 40K is not assault friendly at the moment. I also play Chaos Marines and near shed one man tear with the release of the Raptor Talon. So I get it, assault is currently bad. It just is. Even if you squat the riptide altogether, you will still have similar problems with the Tau and other shooting armies because the problem is with the codexes and a general playstyle that GW currently favors (shooting).

I'm all in favor of making assault easier to get into. In my opinion it's one of the most under utilized parts of the game, and it's fun. I love issuing challenges, but unfortuntaely, those moments don't happen enough in the current meta.

And again I reiterate, if you think that the Riptide is a broken undercosted piece of

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is available to everyone.

take Riptides!

Bach wrote:

Megaknobz - got it

Ah, so close but yet so far

You're not wrong on units not being able to unload damage but I don't think that a riptide ought to be the posterboy for that problem, if we're talking assault units in general. 40K is not assault friendly at the moment. I also play Chaos Marines and near shed one man tear with the release of the Raptor Talon. So I get it, assault is currently bad. It just is. Even if you squat the riptide altogether, you will still have similar problems with the Tau and other shooting armies because the problem is with the codexes and a general playstyle that GW currently favors (shooting).

I'm all in favor of making assault easier to get into. In my opinion it's one of the most under utilized parts of the game, and it's fun. I love issuing challenges, but unfortuntaely, those moments don't happen enough in the current meta.

I wouldn't want the Riptide to be squatted at all, just appropriately costed. I think the Tau as a whole are very unfriendly to the Assault phase thanks to Covering Fire, but the Riptide tops the pile by being able to rip into a unit pair like Meganobz and a Battlewagon so easily, despite the Wagon being fairly well armoured, at roughly the same cost it is for the Ork player to take that unit. And unlike that pair, the Riptide can do all sorts of other things on the field in one package, while the Ork unit combo would struggle to do the same.

I won't claim to have the answer to the problem, but I think we should agree that the Riptide is either unfairly costed or unfairly balanced. It doesn't help that it's in an army that is generally very harsh to Assault armies, but even on its own against more range focused armies, it seems too powerful for its worth.

carldooley wrote:And again I reiterate, if you think that the Riptide is a broken undercosted piece of

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Everything is available to everyone.

take Riptides!

I don't own a Riptide but thanks for contributing.

Even if I did own one, I wouldn't buy a whole wing of them just because I know I can abuse the ruleset to give me an unfair advantage over my opponent. I'm not an unsporting player.

G.A

I wasn't about exploiting ba in 3rd and 5th and there's no way i'd field this thing in 7th.

Another bright idea... why not add a "Relic of the Armory" rule to prevent spamming?

So, how's this look:

XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.


Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.

I really like the "Long Cycle Time" idea. Removal of the 3++ is also fine, it's a boring special rule that adds unnecessary resiliency without making the model behave differently on the board.

Building on your idea jade_angel, it might be cool if you had to roll for the Nova Charge effect a turn in advance... like the charge takes some time to build up. So, you can charge weapons on T1, to fire Nova Profiles on T2.

jade_angel wrote:
So, how's this look:

XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.


Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.