Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I think it's pretty widely agreed that the current flyer rules are terrible. IMO the solution is to bring them back to something like the original 3rd/4th edition rules, where flyers make quick strafing runs and then fly off the table rather than leisurely drifting around the table. The goal is to make flyers a powerful alpha strike unit with an emphasis on one-shot weapons like bombs and missiles, but at the cost of having poor sustained firepower. So:

DEPLOYING FLYERS:

All flyers must begin the game in reserve. Flyers do not arrive according to the normal rules for reserves. Instead they use their own method as described below.

CALLING FOR AIR SUPPORT:

At the beginning of the turn, starting with the second game turn, you may request any number of flyers from reserve. To do this, nominate a unit to call in the air support, an air support mode, and one or more flyers to assign to that unit's target. Roll a D6 and apply any relevant modifiers. If the result is a X+ the flyers arrive according to the mode they have been assigned. Additional flyers may be requested in the same way, but a unit may only make one request and a flyer may only be requested once per turn.

Modifiers:
Unit is a HQ choice: +
Flyer is arriving in CAP mode: +
Unit and flyer are from different detachments: no modifier if battle brothers, - if AoC, not allowed if desperate allies.
Unit is shaken/GTG/falling back: -

New USR:

Forward Air Controller: this model has been specially trained in the art of working with friendly air support. When requesting air support you may add a +X bonus to their unit's roll.

GROUND ATTACK MODE:

Flyers arriving in this mode have been assigned to attack ground targets. When a unit successfully calls in flyers in this mode place a counter on any building, enemy unit, or terrain feature. Flyers called in with this air support roll may only attack targets within 6" unit/building/feature with the counter.

At the end of your turn place all ground attack flyers anywhere on the table, facing the marker. During your next shooting phase ground attack flyers may fire as normal units. At the end of your shooting phase all friendly ground attack flyers are removed from the table and enter reserve.

COMBAT AIR PATROL (CAP) MODE:

Flyers arriving in this mode have been assigned to protect your army from enemy ground attack aircraft. When a unit successfully calls in flyers in this mode they remain in reserve (and can be called in again in different modes), but enter CAP mode.

At the end of your movement phase you may place any or all of your CAP flyers anywhere on the table, facing in any direction. During your next shooting phase CAP flyers may only attack enemy flyers. At the end of your shooting phase all friendly CAP flyers are removed from the table and enter reserve, but remain in CAP mode and can return next turn without another roll to request them.

Note: even in CAP mode enemy flyers that are not on the table can not be attacked. It should be assumed that any enemy flyer that is not in the process of attempting to attack a ground target is able to defend itself effectively and force a stalemate in the dogfight for at least the length of an average 40k battle. This would be a good opportunity for a dogfighting supplement for players who want more detailed air combat rules.

DROP RUN MODE:

Flyers arriving in this mode have been assigned to deploy their cargo of infantry by grav chute or similar method. When a unit successfully calls in flyers in this mode place a counter on any building, enemy unit, or terrain feature.

At the end of your turn place all ground attack flyers anywhere on the table, facing the marker. During your next movement phase transported infantry units may disembark. Treat them as deep striking, with an intended arrival point anywhere within 6" of the marker. If the unit suffers a deep strike mishap it is immediately removed as casualties instead of the normal effect. At the end of your movement phase all friendly drop run flyers are removed from the table and enter reserve.

Note: this replaces grav chute deployment (Valkyrie) and similar rules. Flyers which would not be able to deploy troops without landing will receive a special rule that they can not make drop runs.

FLYER SPECIAL RULES:

Aerial unit: flyers are always hundreds or thousands of feet above the battlefield, even if the limits of practical model kits require them to be modeled at a much lower altitude. Flyers always ignore all terrain and other models when moving or deploying (use WMS to mark the position of a flyer if you can not place it in the desired spot without crushing other models). Clear LOS can always be drawn to and from flyers (this means that flyers will never get LOS-based cover, and only area terrain and similar non-LOS-based cover may be used against flyers). A flyer always counts as moving at cruising speed.

Hard to hit: Hitting a flyer without AA weapons is virtually impossible, and troops are trained to not waste time or ammunition attempting a shot. Weapons without the Skyfire USR and weapons that do not roll to hit (blast weapons, etc) may not fire at flyers. Flyers can not be charged or attacked in close combat in any way.

Note: Skyfire will become more widely available, and every army will have at least one dedicated AA unit.

Flyers shooting: flyers typically have fixed-mount weapons that can all be fired with one pull of the trigger. Flyers always count as stationary when shooting (and therefore fire all of their weapons at full BS unless otherwise stated). Each time they make a shooting attack a flyer may choose to gain the Skyfire USR for the duration of the attack. Ignore any differences in elevation when determining whether a target is within the firing arc of a flyer's weapons.

Crash and burn: a flyer that suffers an "explodes" result on the damage table explodes in midair and no significant wreckage hits the battlefield. Instead of the normal effects it is simply removed from the table. A flyer that suffers a "wrecked" result crashes into the battlefield. Place a large blast template 4D6" directly ahead of the flyer, and then scatter it 2D6". Once the blast template is in its final location resolve it as a STR 10 AP 3 large blast weapon with the "ignores cover" and "barrage" rules.

Evade: a flyer facing incoming fire can choose to break off its attack and evade. After to-hit rolls but before armor penetration rolls a flyer may choose to evade. An evading flyer gains the Jink USR but may not fire until it leaves the table.

Hover: a flyer with this rule is designed to get low and slow, either to deploy troops or to remain in the area and concentrate fire on ground targets. At any time you may declare that a flyer with this rule is entering hover mode. It immediately becomes a fast skimmer and loses the "aerial unit", "hard to hit", and "crash and burn" rules. If the unit is in reserve when you make this choice it is subject to the normal rules for arriving from reserve. At the end of any turn you may declare that a flyer in hover mode is leaving hover mode. It regains its normal rules and immediately returns to reserve.

Transport flyers: units may not disembark from or embark onto a flyer unless it is in hover mode. If a flyer is destroyed while in hover mode all transported units must immediately make an initiative test. If the unit passes this test it has jumped clear and used its grav chutes (or similar equipment) to make a safe landing. The unit takes any hits as normal for passengers aboard a destroyed vehicle, and immediately arrives by deep strike anywhere within 3" of the flyer except it scatters 4D6" instead of the usual distance. If the unit suffers a deep strike mishap it is immediately removed as casualties instead. If the unit fails its initiative test it falls to its inevitable death and is immediately removed as casualties.

Bombs: a flyer may drop one set of bombs in each shooting phase. Bombs are dropped at the end of the shooting phase (so models are already dead and will not generate additional hits from the blast, etc) as the flyer leaves the table. Declare which bombs the flyer will drop, and designate a point anywhere within a 45* arc in front of the flyer (note that the targeting restrictions from the initial counter still apply). Resolve the bombs as a normal blast weapon.

Strafing Run: dedicated ground attack flyers are excellent gunnery platforms against ground targets, but that same stability makes them poor dogfighters. A model with this rule gains +1 BS against all targets except flyers, skimmers, and jump/jet pack units, but loses -1 BS against other flyers.

Note: the Vendetta gets BS 2 and the strafing run rule.

================================================================

Sample unit: Imperial Navy Lightning fighter (fast attack for IG)

Vehicle (flyer)
BS 3
AV 11/11/10
HP 3

Weapons:
Twin-linked lascannon
Heavy autocannon

Special rules:
Agile (as current rule)
Armored cockpit (as current rule)

Options:
May upgrade to an ace pilot (+1 BS): +X points
May take one of the following: +X
*Four hellstrike missiles
*Four hellfury missiles (as in IG codex)
*Four skystrike missiles
*Four cluster bombs
*Four heavy bombs
May replace heavy autocannon with two bombs or missiles from above: free

Heavy autocannon: STR 8 AP 4, Heavy 2, range 72"
Hellstrike missile: STR 9 AP 1, Heavy 1, range 72", armorbane, may not attack flyers
Skystrike missile: STR 8 AP 2, Heavy 1, range 72", heat seeker (re-roll to hit vs. flyers)
Cluster bomb: STR 6 AP 4, Heavy 2, bomb, large blast
Heavy bomb: STR 10 AP 3, Heavy 1, bomb, large blast

So that would make the Vendetta BS1 against other flyers if I'm reading this right...

 motyak wrote:
So that would make the Vendetta BS1 against other flyers if I'm reading this right...

Exactly. If you want to kill enemy flyers bring a Thunderbolt instead of a transport helicopter with some better guns bolted on.

 Peregrine wrote:

 motyak wrote:
So that would make the Vendetta BS1 against other flyers if I'm reading this right...

Exactly. If you want to kill enemy flyers bring a Thunderbolt instead of a transport helicopter with some better guns bolted on.

So shouldn't you bump the Valkyrie down too?

 motyak wrote:
So shouldn't you bump the Valkyrie down too?

Yes (and the Vulture/Stormraven/etc will all have strafing run). I'm just mentioning the Vendetta specifically as an example of how this fixes the "Vendettas are overpowered" problem and breaks ground attack and air superiority flyers into clearly distinct roles. My new Vendetta is a clear transport flyer with some bolted-on guns, not the god of air combat that it is right now. Strafing run + BS 2 lets it shoot at TL BS 3 against ground targets like it does now, but cripples it against other flyers.

Ah righto, I didn't get that it was an example rather than a sole ruling.

Very well though out, Peregrine, though it is less exciting cinematic than the current rules

I would use these rules over the current 40k rules every day of the week! Though it would be cool for fliers in CAP mode to utilise a dogfight rue similar to the one in Crusade of Fire (But I'd understand if you are against that idea)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Though it would be cool for fliers in CAP mode to utilise a dogfight rue similar to the one in Crusade of Fire (But I'd understand if you are against that idea)

IMO I'd like to see a proper dogfighting expansion, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate for normal games. The CoF/DFTS rules were just awful (you pretty much just play rock/paper/scissors and never make any meaningful decisions), and doing proper aerial combat at 28mm scale would take up a lot more table space. So my preference is to just handwave it away as "they stalemate" and focus on the action on the ground, and save more detailed rules for an expansion if anyone is interested (or bring back Aeronautica Imperialis, which is a great game).

though it is less exciting cinematic than the current rules

Actually one of my reasons for doing this was how un-cinematic the current rules are. Flyers leisurely drift around the battlefield (seriously, 40k jet fighters are slower than real-world single engine prop planes that are lucky to manage 150mph) putting out point-efficient firepower every turn, but you never get the awe-inspiring effect of an air strike flattening a whole city block. My idea here is that flyers spend less time on the table, but when they do hit something it's going to be a game-changing event as a fighter streaks in at 500mph and drops a few thousand pounds of bombs on something.

Probably should of made it clear I meant GWs version of cinematic... (the terrible one)

Though that joke is a year and a 1/2 old...

Huh, these rules are kind of like the ones from Dropzone commander.

Do the flyers ever go on the table? The rules don't make it that clear. It seems they just need a counter to do their thing.

Sounds really good. I am printing them and I will try to test it all.

Good job, Peregrine. You addressed most of the issues regarding Flyers.

What about flyers that do something during the move phase?, like the Drake?

As i understand it, the Heldrake can't VS anymore with those rules.

Excellent. Not a lot jumped out as problematic after a first read through, and its pretty much what I expected of flyers in the first place.

Now we need to fix arty so its not lobbing shells 20' away.

I like this as well, though if I may ask, how do FMCs fit into this? Keeping them unchanged?

no, he says place the model on the board, so the Drake can still VS anything it would have passed over.

FMCs would remain unchanged, unless you know of a bird that can outrun an F22...

 IHateNids wrote:
no, he says place the model on the board, so the Drake can still VS anything it would have passed over.

FMCs would remain unchanged, unless you know of a bird that can outrun an F22...

Oh, oh, I do!

Touché...

Definitely better than 6th edition's way of doing flyers.

My only reservation is that it still makes flyer effectively immune to attack bar specialist (and ignores assault outright rules the player plays nice and goes into hover mode), but at least it cuts their power in half.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Do the flyers ever go on the table? The rules don't make it that clear. It seems they just need a counter to do their thing.

The flyer is placed on the table to determine where it is when the other player shoots at it, and where it shoots its own weapons from.

Honestly, I think flyers-as-models don't work at 28mm scale and should have been represented by off-table support (like orbital bombardments), but it's too late for that now. This is an attempt to make the flyer model relevant but cut away all of the awful movement rules.

 curran12 wrote:
I like this as well, though if I may ask, how do FMCs fit into this? Keeping them unchanged?

I'm not really sure. The problem IMO with FMCs is that they don't have a very clear fluff identity. Fluff-wise they should be just like jump packs and skimmers: flying units that can use their flight to avoid inconvenient terrain, but not true aircraft. But instead they get a bunch of rules added on to balance the game and give a "flyer" equivalent to armies that don't have vehicles. So it's kind of an awkward situation now. If the flyer rules change to something better leaving FMCs as they are now isn't very elegant, but a winged demon flying along at 500mph is just stupid. And I don't know how to solve the problem and balance rules vs. fluff.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
My only reservation is that it still makes flyer effectively immune to attack bar specialist (and ignores assault outright rules the player plays nice and goes into hover mode), but at least it cuts their power in half.

But flyers should be effectively immune to non-specialist weapons and completely immune to angry guys with swords. It's a 500mph fighter jet flying hundreds or thousands of feet above the battlefield, you aren't going to do anything to it without specialized AA weapons. If you want to kill flyers bring air superiority fighters of your own or specialist AA units. If you don't want to bring those then take cover and hope to survive the attack.

I and my group don't use fliers, but if we did, I'd be suggesting we switch to these rules. These manage to represent the suddenness of a flier's attack rather than having them loiter in small arms range and dither around, and is far more 'cinematic in the right way.'

The only thing that did leap out was in the ground attack rules. If you place the marker at the start of your turn, the flier at the end and then only get to shoot in your next shooting phase, wouldn't it be easy in a lot of cases for enemy to move the 6" away and create an empty zone where the flier can shoot? Of course, this does actually work quite nicely as a method of controlling movement, but I wonder if it was what you were getting at.

Similarly, can wounds be allocated beyond the 6" radius of the attack run? As otherwise it is again easy to move so that only a couple of models are in range.

But on the whole, solid rules, far better than the rulebook versions. As for FMCs, I'd leave them as they are, as the rules work. The only issue is when you have a large insect capable of shooting down a several-hundred MPH jet, but I can't see a way around that without drastically unbalancing things.

 Paradigm wrote:
The only thing that did leap out was in the ground attack rules. If you place the marker at the start of your turn, the flier at the end and then only get to shoot in your next shooting phase, wouldn't it be easy in a lot of cases for enemy to move the 6" away and create an empty zone where the flier can shoot? Of course, this does actually work quite nicely as a method of controlling movement, but I wonder if it was what you were getting at.

The idea is that there are two ways to place a marker:

1) On a fixed spot on the table, making area control the priority. For example, smashing the bastion at the heart of your opponent's gunline or clearing an objective that you plan to take next turn. This guarantees that your target will always be that spot, but offers your opponent the chance to abandon the spot and avoid the attack.

or

2) On an enemy unit, making destroying it the priority. For example, marking a key tank squadron for death. This guarantees that you'll always shoot the intended unit, but offers your opponent the chance to move that unit away to an awkward location (in better cover, for example) and risks wasting an attack if you decide to attack and kill the targeted unit before the flyer gets a shot (in that case you could shoot something near the marker, but you can't guarantee that anything will be there).

Essentially what this is representing is whether you're telling the pilot of the incoming flyer to attack a specific position that you describe ("the tall factory building next to the bastion") or describing a target ("the LRBT squadron on the left flank") and saying "go kill that one". The pilot doesn't have a good view of the battlefield until they're committed to their attack run on the target you described, so they don't have much ability to switch targets without breaking off and coming back for another pass.

Similarly, can wounds be allocated beyond the 6" radius of the attack run? As otherwise it is again easy to move so that only a couple of models are in range.

Yep. The marker only controls what units you're allowed to target with the attack, wound allocation is done normally by range/LOS from the flyer's weapons.

Sounds great, then. I like the idea of fliers being used for positional dominance, it seems to reflect their real-world roles far more than the current rules.

Hi Peregrine.
I do like the new rules.
Could I suggest some alternatives to simplify things a bit?

I totally agree with the 3 mission types , CAP, Ground Attack and Troop Deployment.

How would you feel about just rolling to bring NON CAP flyers in along a flight path?(The players HQ just requests mission type , and determines if successful with a dice roll.)

When successful
Place an Entry marker along any table edge.
Place an Exit marker on opposing table edge. (We could roll for scatter to represent cross winds etc.)

The flyer can land in a single spot anywhere along this flight path to drop off troops, or attack a SINGLE enemy unit /terrain feature along this flight path.

IF the opposing player has a successful CAP request, Place the GA/TD flyer on its entry point, THEN place the CAP flyer within its weapon range of the GA/TD flyer.
The CAP flyer attacks the GA /TD flyer BEFORE it can fly into the playing are and perform its mission.

A friendly CAP flyer cancels out an opposing CAP flyer attack.

I personally don think we need to use a Forward Air Controller. Could we just assume the HQ(s) make requests for air and arty support, and the higher chain of command grant them when they see fit?

I understand this is not a massive departure from your ideas. But I think flight paths and target/LZ of opportunity are more cinematic,(Good version of the word.)
Just a thought...

Peregrine, would you classify, say, a Heldrake as a ground attack craft or dogfighter aircraft? It does not seem entirely clear, we are given Codex artwork of it tearing Valkyries to bits (Two pictures, actually) but its most popular weapon is definitely a ground attack only one. On the other hand, its other weapon is just as effective against flyers as against ground targets, and the same goes for its 'melee' strikes.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Peregrine, would you classify, say, a Heldrake as a ground attack craft or dogfighter aircraft? It does not seem entirely clear, we are given Codex artwork of it tearing Valkyries to bits (Two pictures, actually) but its most popular weapon is definitely a ground attack only one. On the other hand, its other weapon is just as effective against flyers as against ground targets, and the same goes for its 'melee' strikes.

By the look of it, any flyer can be assigned to any of the three roles, so if you wanted the Hades on a Drake you could call it in as CAP or Ground Attack. With the Baleflamer you'd go Ground Attack and for vector strikes I assume that would just depend on what you were targeting. As Heldrakes are the only flyer that ca Vector Strike, it might be worth giving it it's own ruling.

Would the Crimson Hunter (Exarch specifically) be an anti-air or anti-ground fighter? It's got rules to kill aircrafts and rules to single out models in units (up to and including on 5+ to hit, no less!). Currently they are also what I feel the only half-decent anti-air of the codex.

Something to keep in mind is that almost all GW flyers (with the exception of some forgeworld) are equipped roughly as attack helicopters and fill that role on the tabletop. They move about 3x the speed of a tank (modern day LAVs go about 40 mph, the H-60 cruises around 120 mph). Fixed wing attack aircraft generally don't have transport capacity either. In addition, the weapons on nearly all the 40K flyers fit the ground attack role - you don't see 6 m-16s strapped together on the side of a jet. While some of the weapons are found in equivalent form on modern fighters, pretty much all are found on modern attack helicopters (including light anti-air, the newest AH-1s can mount anti-air missiles)

I think that the changes are good, if you want to make flyers work like fixed wing attack craft. But if you see them as helicopter equivilents, then they make more sense as is. Your big airstrikes are still represented by orbital strikes and such.

I think FMCs need some rules love to, I think MCs and FMCs should determine their cover saves as a vehicle would....right now a FMC has all the benefits of being a flyer and none of the negatives...making the circus lists just not fun to deal with on a table-top 28mm game.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Something to keep in mind is that almost all GW flyers (with the exception of some forgeworld) are equipped roughly as attack helicopters and fill that role on the tabletop. They move about 3x the speed of a tank (modern day LAVs go about 40 mph, the H-60 cruises around 120 mph). Fixed wing attack aircraft generally don't have transport capacity either. In addition, the weapons on nearly all the 40K flyers fit the ground attack role - you don't see 6 m-16s strapped together on the side of a jet. While some of the weapons are found in equivalent form on modern fighters, pretty much all are found on modern attack helicopters (including light anti-air, the newest AH-1s can mount anti-air missiles)

I think that the changes are good, if you want to make flyers work like fixed wing attack craft. But if you see them as helicopter equivilents, then they make more sense as is. Your big airstrikes are still represented by orbital strikes and such.

That is a very interesting way of looking at things, and I wonder why I have not thought of that before...

Though you do have rules like "supersonic" -- which taken literally would mean "flies over the table so fast it can't do anything."

Maybe a revised Supersonic rule?
"When this model arrives from reserves, hold it up for everyone to admire. Then make zooming sounds and swipe it quickly over the table. Place the model back in reserves."