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According to the Open Fire Sherman assembly guide http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=3557 The Platoon commanders plus the Company HQ should be given open Hatches. However I do not want to do this, as the appearance of tanks driving into enemy small arms fire with the commander's head poking out of the hatch looks ridiculous. lol.

So is it important that the suicidal tank commanders head be pointing out of the hatch, to show who is who? What other ways to people use to distinguish Platoon commander tanks and company HQ's and 2ic's tanks, with out an open hatch?

Its difficult with British tanks are there isn't any noticable way of distinguishing indivudual tanks, for perfectly valid tactical reasons.

One possibility is to paint a name on the side of the tank's hull (for example a place name begining with A, B or C which corresponds to the Sqn that you are representing).

Personally I just use the open hatch method as its instantly noticable and command tanks should be unbuttoned a lot of the time anyway.

Agreed more for ease of recognition

In a similar sort of vein, how would one go about denoting command tanks from platoons of Zvesda 38(t)s and Pz IIs? Being cheap snap-fits, they came with no optional extras I'd have expected only of more expensive kits, but also with no easy way of marking command tanks using the vehicle itself; are there any markings I'd paint on instead?

The Germans used a numbering system but thats only really in the late war period. In fairness though as Germans have mission tactics it doesn't really matter who your command tank is.

For my own Early war panzers I just kept my platoon tanks as they were and for the command tanks I repurposed spare cupolas I had in my bits box (I thiknk they were from a Pz IV)and mounted a commander that way.

Unfortunately, with only EW Czech Panzers, and all the tanks in the army being Zvesda, I don't have access to spare German bits. =/

I know it may not be every ones cup of tea.
But on my 6mm armour I put an 'air identification flag' on the back of my command tank.(A red patch on top of rear stowage.)And I have used it on my 15mm armour on occasion.(Using a more detailed flag, usually a decal/sticker .)

It may not have been very common, but there are some photos of tanks with air identification flags on the rear armour.So it could be a simple alternative to a commander in the command hatch.

It's purley for ease of recognition of the command tank, I can see why some people think it looks silly.

One alternative that I've seen done before on 1/300 tanks is to model an aerial on the command tank. On tanks that small it was done simply by glue a single hair from a indoor broom to the tank.

For 1/100 FOW tanks you could use thicker broom hair or even brass rodding.

If you are feeling a little ambitious you can cut out the hatch in the hull and then with a little styrene build a new open hatch. You might even try contacting Battlefront and see if you can order hatches and tank commanders as bits.

 Palindrome wrote:
Its difficult with British tanks are there isn't any noticable way of distinguishing indivudual tanks, for perfectly valid tactical reasons.

Are you sure about that? Off the top of my head I know the 27th Armoured Brigade, Guards Armoured Division and Czechoslovakian Armoured Brigade Group all painted the individual tanks numbers on the tanks in mildly visible numbers.

 Palindrome wrote:
The Germans used a numbering system but thats only really in the late war period.

Depends on the unit, some were using it as early as Poland

Gashrog wrote:

Are you sure about that? Off the top of my head I know the 27th Armoured Brigade, Guards Armoured Division and Czechoslovakian Armoured Brigade Group all painted the individual tanks numbers on the tanks in mildly visible numbers.

Were they used to distinguish HQ elements?

Maybe add some stowage to differentiate the command tank instead?

That or add something unusual like a marking, nickname, or an aerial recognition flag.

 Palindrome wrote:

Gashrog wrote:

Are you sure about that? Off the top of my head I know the 27th Armoured Brigade, Guards Armoured Division and Czechoslovakian Armoured Brigade Group all painted the individual tanks numbers on the tanks in mildly visible numbers.

Were they used to distinguish HQ elements?

To varying degrees. These were the numbers used by the New Zealand Armoured Brigade:
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/all_images/Historical/FKandC/NZ4tharmoured-05.jpg
I believe the 27th Armoured Brigade (which was numbered sequentially within the regiments - hence the 82) similarly had set numbers set aside for HQ Troops - and presumably in both cases regular Troop Leaders had a specific number within the troop.
IIRC The Grenadier Guards used letters for the HQ Troop.
Coldstream Guard Troop Leaders would have the Troop number on the turret rear, with the other tanks in the troop having the number plus a letter (A-C).

It's certainly non-historic, but I put a little dab of colored back somewhere on the back of my non-numbered (i.e., Allied) tanks.

Each platoon has its own color (red, blue, green, etc.), and the platoon leader has a mark that's half white.

It's a method that usually means only I can see the color, so the tanks still look good to my opponent.

Then again, I still have plenty of heads poking out of cupolas, since it was something tank commanders did, even in combat.

There is evidence, both anecdotal and eyewitness accounts showing that the practice of open turrets in tanks is more common than you would expect. There is an eyewitness account of a Soviet commander opening his hatch at Kursk (because he couldn't see any enemy targets from his viewports) to find a German was doing exactly the same thing, the man goes on to describe the German.

There is also evidence to show that the Germans in particular were into this sort of practice due to the better view of the battlefield it gave the commanders, Rommel and Guderian rode in open turrets for this reason.

In fact read any book on tank warfare or watch any documentary and you'll find at least one account of a tank commander opening his hatch for some reason.

I'll find some evidence later to back all this up.

Modeling wise, if you were doing Allies in Normandy you put hedge trimmers on the command tank, or mark the tank with an extra bit of stowage or radio wire. Even adding an extended fake barrel and loudspeaker.

Tank commanders often had the hatch open.

With the hatch closed, visibility is very poor, the most successful tank commanders would have the hatch open and to gain the extra visibility which was worth the risk of injury, or in many cases, death. Both Otto Carius and Michael Wittmann mention the need to remain out of the turret as long as possible to maintain good all round visibility, a key survival factor in tank to tank engagements.

It was always a trade off, protection versus visibility.

In Italy, due to the terrain, it was actually a standing order that tank commanders would operate with the hatches open to maintain good visibility.

In Burma, tank comanders losses were high due to tank commanders remaining exposed to spot enemy infantry attacks and being picked off by snipers.

Yeah it's really crazy just how little visibility most tanks had.

It's not like World of Tanks where you have a 360 view with ease.

Best thing that put it in perspective for me was Red Orchestra 2. Even the Panzer IV with it's multiple view slits and cupola feels like a deathtrap when the infantry gets in close. Popping your head out for a better view is a necessity if you don't want an anti tank mine dropped down your tailpipe. Of course, then you start getting shot at.

Of course, most tank commanders wouldn't lean way out of the hatch, most of the time they would just peek their head out a bit to get a better look. If you want a sensible looking open hatch, just have it where the head and maybe the shoulders are visible. Would look realistic and would match what they would be doing in combat.

MadMarkMagee wrote:
According to the Open Fire Sherman assembly guide http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=3557 The Platoon commanders plus the Company HQ should be given open Hatches. However I do not want to do this, as the appearance of tanks driving into enemy small arms fire with the commander's head poking out of the hatch looks ridiculous. lol.

So is it important that the suicidal tank commanders head be pointing out of the hatch, to show who is who? What other ways to people use to distinguish Platoon commander tanks and company HQ's and 2ic's tanks, with out an open hatch?

Most people use open hatches and figures to make it easier for all to discern the command tank in a platoon. This is personal preference. As long as you come up with some way to make them obvious to yourself and your opponent you don't need to have open hatches. The key is to avoid the confusion that comes of running the game with your tank platoons have tanks that all look exactly the same so that no one can remember which tank is which.

Skriker

 Palindrome wrote:
The Germans used a numbering system but thats only really in the late war period.

Though keep in mind that the numbering was usually restricted to the Panzer Divisions. Independent Assault Gun Batteries usually (emphasis on that word as there were exceptions) don't appear to have numbered their StuGs. Once again, this is in contrast with the Panzer Divisions, who did number their StuGs.



On the open hatch front, one interesting item that's probably worth noting...

Instead of a copula, French tanks had a rotating viewport on top of the turret. The idea was that the tank commander could get a 360 degree look around the tank without exposing himself to enemy fire. Entering and exiting the turret was accomplished via a hatch on the back of the turret. It appears that the first thing the Germans did when they refurbished captured French tanks for use in their own army was to replace the rotating viewport with a copula. So despite the additional risks involved, the ability of the tank commander to poke his head out for a look was considered important enough to cause the Germans to remodel the turret.

Some German tanks had rotating cupolas, but due to a lack of ball bearings, many were fixed in place unable to rotate.

In Panzer Leader by Heinz Guderian, he basically says it was absolutely necessary to have the hatch open and was one of the reasons the Germans were so deadly. Positional awareness is key to Mandingo a tank and you don't get that from looking out the little slits.

A commander's tank would often have an extra radio antenna, which can be easily modelled.

Two antennas = command. Easy.

Not to mention many tank engagements were fought over long range, and the best way to spot enemy tanks was to stick your head out of the turret, and look through your bino's to find the enemy.

Then direct the gunner to the target (ever looked through a WII tank gun sight? Horrible!).

However for game purposes and the tendancy of people to intentionally "snipe" command tanks with arty, or air. I would suggest all non-german or canadian tankers to simply write CMD on the bottom of their command tank with a magic marker.

Then shuffle them and put them on the table. This allows your opponent the peace of mind that the commander isn't magically jumping from tank to tank, but also prevents the gamey arty/air sniping.

Of course you should mentally know which one is the command tank. And whenever one is destroyed show your opponent the bottom to ensure fair play.

But.. I don't think there is any need to have a cupola open when enemy tanks are highlighted with a bright red line (even when behind bushes and trees), and you have perfect 360 float-o-vision that can rotate above the tank and see around corners?

Wagguy80 wrote:
However for game purposes and the tendancy of people to intentionally "snipe" command tanks with arty, or air. I would suggest all non-german or canadian tankers to simply write CMD on the bottom of their command tank with a magic marker.

Then shuffle them and put them on the table. This allows your opponent the peace of mind that the commander isn't magically jumping from tank to tank, but also prevents the gamey arty/air sniping.

Of course you should mentally know which one is the command tank. And whenever one is destroyed show your opponent the bottom to ensure fair play.

Which works great until the platoon commander ends up in a different tank.



Having a guy peeking out of the turret is useful for tanks because it allows you to easily swap turrets in the even that a different vehicle ends up in charge of the platoon. Admittedly, it doesn't work quite so well with assault guns.

Then you would just remove the tank he moved too and put the command tank where the tank he transferred too.

 Pacific wrote:
But.. I don't think there is any need to have a cupola open when enemy tanks are highlighted with a bright red line (even when behind bushes and trees), and you have perfect 360 float-o-vision that can rotate above the tank and see around corners?

Someones been playing World of Tanks too much! good on ya!

Ok, I am new to this and just ordered my first kit, and was looking around the forum and seeing threads that are making me very excited about FOW and saw this thread. I love the way you guys communicate. I know that this post is pretty old but have you thought about the vertical white line for officer and horizontal for Sgt lines painted on the back of the US helmets? Place them on the back of the tank turret unobtrusively and only you would know what it meant.

Welcome to the forum mate. Good first post too, much better than a lot of people's. Unfortunately, if a thread is quite old (like this one) you are better off starting a new one, as posting in a thread this old is considered 'thread necromancy' or 'threadomancy' for short, and is against the rules.

It's an honest mistake, so feel free to start your own thread on it if you feel there is further discussion to be had.