Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Barrage weapons always resolve hits against a vehicle's side armour (pg 34: barrage). Knights can make their ion shield cover one facing, including their left or right.

So the question is: how do barrage weapons interact with Ion shields?

I'm guessing that there is no answer and that the best way to resolve this is to roll off to see which of the two side facings the barrage weapon hits.

The hit is resolved against the facing, but it comes from the centre of the blast marker.

The hit still occurs on a side facing though. If we count the shield needing to be towards the centre of the blast to get a save, then you have the odd situation where you resolve the hit against the side armour yet need to shield the front.

This does raise another point. If you put the barrage marker over the centre of the model and roll a hit, which facing does the shield need to cover?

Its a barrage weapon. it is resolved on side armor.


How does ion shield work again?

You choose a facing at the start of the opposing shooting phase. You then get a 4++ "against all hits on that facing until the start of the opponent's next Shooting phase."

 Trickstick wrote:
You choose a facing at the start of the opposing shooting phase. You then get a 4++ "against all hits on that facing until the start of the opponent's next Shooting phase."

More specifically, "Left Side" and "Right Side" are different facings for this purpose, so it's not just a case of "Choose side armour, barrage hits that, done."

As much as Nos is probably right, how to resolve a direct hit? It'll be equally in all facings?

Hmm so it cant resolve properly.

I dont think there is an actual distinction between left or right facing, only that there is a front side or rear.

So HIWPI: on a hit roll randomize for left or right.

OR more hilariously make em call left side right side or above for barrage.

What direction is the shooting attack hitting from based on the center of the blast? That is the direction your shield would need to be facing.

You then resolve the hits against side armour (including a 4++ if that side is where the barrage has originated from).

If the barrage scored a direct hit on the center of the model, the blast comes from the center of the model, so your ion shield is useless in that case.

I don't see the problem.

Resolving the barrage blast against the side facing is purely to determine the AV that must be penetrated. Especially since vehicles didn't have side specific cover saves or shields until now..

You can place the barrage template over any part of the model as long as the inner circle is wholly inside the model. So, the marker will be on a a majority single facing, unless you center it perfectly over the center of the target unit, in which case the center of the barrage is covering the intersection of all 4 faces, meaning the shield would save it no matter which side the shield was chosen to be on.

If the shield is chosend to on the right side of the knight, then make sure the center of the blast is over the left side quadrant to avoid all argument.

Rorschach9 wrote:
What direction is the shooting attack hitting from based on the center of the blast? That is the direction your shield would need to be facing.

You then resolve the hits against side armour (including a 4++ if that side is where the barrage has originated from).

If the barrage scored a direct hit on the center of the model, the blast comes from the center of the model, so your ion shield is useless in that case.

I don't see the problem.

 deviantduck wrote:
Resolving the barrage blast against the side facing is purely to determine the AV that must be penetrated. Especially since vehicles didn't have side specific cover saves or shields until now..

You can place the barrage template over any part of the model as long as the inner circle is wholly inside the model. So, the marker will be on a a majority single facing, unless you center it perfectly over the center of the target unit, in which case the center of the barrage is covering the intersection of all 4 faces, meaning the shield would save it no matter which side the shield was chosen to be on.

If the shield is chosend to on the right side of the knight, then make sure the center of the blast is over the left side quadrant to avoid all argument.

That's not accurate. The Barrage rule only states: "To determine whether a unit...is allowed a cover save and when determining wound allocation always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker. Hits against vehicles are always resolved against their side armor."

There is nothing in the Barrage rules that say hits against vehicles count as originating from the hole. The shield works against "all hits on that facing". RAW doesn't resolve the issue. It's always going to hit a side regardless of where the hole is. Rolling a die has as much rules support as using the position of the hole.

Facing from Center Hole.

You cannot claim that the resolution against the side armor rule means that the Ion Shield protects from it when left or right side is chosen because the barrage rule does not specify a side while the Ion Shield does.

For a direct hit you go for whichever facing in which the majority of the Center whole is located.

Angelic wrote:
RAW doesn't resolve the issue.

Actually, I think RAW handles it fine, and makes it effectively the top armor, as it probably should be.

So, you've selected your shield to be on your right (or left) side. Barrage hits your side armor. Does it hit your right (or left) side? No. So, no shield.

HIWPl, they can select their top side...

Except that there is no such thing as top armor/top facing. it has to hit 1 of the 4 faces. Below is what determines what face.

So if you place the hole of the barrage on the front center of the vehicle, it hits the front facing, but penetrates it at the side AV. So, if the shield is on the front facing, it gets a save against a barrage.
This has never been an issue before because vehicles didn't get an intervening cover save from barrage, only shrouded, etc, and got an invulnerable save regardless of face hit. Now, we have an invulnerable save that only covers 25% of the vehicle at a time...

For a further example, if the barrage center hole is in the center of the vehicle over the X, it hits all 4 faces at once. how do we determine the 25% invuln then?

 Trickstick wrote:
Barrage weapons always resolve hits against a vehicle's side armour (pg 34: barrage). Knights can make their ion shield cover one facing, including their left or right.

So the question is: how do barrage weapons interact with Ion shields?

I'm guessing that there is no answer and that the best way to resolve this is to roll off to see which of the two side facings the barrage weapon hits.

I'd say you get the ion shield save against the facing that was hit, but the barrage still penetrates against the side armor AV.

So, the barrage can hit the front armor which is shielded, strike against the side armor's AV and then the controlling player gets his 4++ as the front armor is shielded.

 deviantduck wrote:
Except that there is no such thing as top armor/top facing.

True, which is why I used words like "effectively" and "HIWPl".

 deviantduck wrote:
it has to hit 1 of the 4 faces. Below is what determines what face.

No, it has to hit one of the three facings (front, side, rear), and we know which one it is, it's the side.

It's not the right side. It's not the left side. Those are invented for the Knight's rules, but there's no reason to apply them to barrage, RaW, RaI, or HIWPl.

 deviantduck wrote:
So if you place the hole of the barrage on the front center of the vehicle, it hits the front facing, but penetrates it at the side AV.

Incorrect. It determines cover and casualty removal from the front facing, but hits the side. This distinction is RaW, and important. You've got the general and specific backwards from how the rules are actually written.

Just say you hit them on the side that doesn't have the shield, problem solved.

It says that hits are always resolved against the side armour. The way I am reading it is thus:

You can be directly in front of a Knight and fire your weapon with a barrage rules. you get a target so no scatter and lets just say you had it right on the front of it because there were some other models that you could hit as well. You have hit the front facing, the Knight gets the invuln save because it hit the front. It fails because God hates me, so now it gets resolved against the side armour.

Barrage makes all hits resolve against the side armour. So you can hit it any which facing you please, but damage is RESOLVED against the side Armour Value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes, you determine which facing is hit from the centre hole on the blast marker, roll to glance/pen, then if you have hit the facing with the Ion shield take the 4++.

Pretty cut and dry.

 Imperator_Class wrote:
Barrage makes all hits resolve against the side armour. So you can hit it any which facing you please, but damage is RESOLVED against the side Armour Value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes, you determine which facing is hit from the centre hole on the blast marker, roll to glance/pen, then if you have hit the facing with the Ion shield take the 4++.

Pretty cut and dry.

Which absolutely has no rules support whatsoever. Saves are part of resolving damage. It's breaking the rules to resolve a hit and invulnerable save for anything but the side armor. Maybe GW fixes it in the actual rule book for these things. They could just as easily say the the shield works against all Barrage as determine facing from hole. Another way they could do it is it hits the right/left based on which is closer, taking front/rear out completely.

RaW: Whole thing doesn't work.
HIWPI: Cover saves are determined from the blast, so would do invulnerable from the same place (house rule).

 grendel083 wrote:
RaW: Whole thing doesn't work.
HIWPI: Cover saves are determined from the blast, so would do invulnerable from the same place (house rule).

Argeed.

 Crimson wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
RaW: Whole thing doesn't work.
HIWPI: Cover saves are determined from the blast, so would do invulnerable from the same place (house rule).

Argeed.

Sounds reasonable as a house rule.