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I'm back.

Looking around the many fora on the internet about Warmahordes gives you a certain look on how the game should be played - People talk about how different models work great together, and how some warcasters are an almost must to use. I know, however, that that isn't the truth - You guys have told me pver and over that all models are usuable if you dedicate some support and thought to them.

The point to this post is pretty simple - I have a slew of Cygnar and Mercenary models people don't mention very often, and I want to know your take on that - Why they aren't mentioned and if that is justifiable, if possible. Don't worry, I've already learned that I shouldn't be asking about what works and what doesn't, so this isn't a "guys, why can't I use this"-thread, but more of a "Why don't we hear about this more?"-thread.

So lets forget the Gun Mages and the Stormwall/eHaley-combo and dive into the unused!

The Avenger, Centurion and Hammersmith - While I hear about the Centurion and the Hammersmith from time to time, the Avenger is almost unheard off where I turn. I know what it is and what it does, but it seems strange that more people aren't mentioning it more.

The Sentinel - Yeah, it might not be killy, but it is pretty hardy for a light 'jack. Why isn't it used to defend squishies more?

Silver Line Stormguard - As I mentioned a couple of days ago, why isn't this used as a defensive unit of Cygnar? People want soemthing hardy to stop the enemy from crossing your lines, this is it, isn't it?

The Storm Strider - I don't get this. An electrical bowlingball on legs, and people ignore it? How?

There are others, but these eludes me the most - If you have an answer, please leave it here.

Not really Cygnar, but most Menoth players tend to often ignore the Exemplar Cinerators, but which is understandable since for the same cost for both unit sizes, you can get the Bastions, which are a much better unit. Although there are some casters that can boost up their effectiveness (one major example being Vindictus, and his army wide spell in his control area to help them boost their speed when they need it).

Another is the Deliverers, due in part their horrible effective Rat and being inaccurate, so it is understandable most people would not want to take it. However, if you put this in pKreoss's list for a popndrop or pSevvy under Eye of Menoth can make it devastating.

I could go on with it, but it is mostly looking at the other options the army has, what can an equivalent of said unit/jack/beast/solo do for about the same points cost, and can it be taken as the alternative under the right warcaster/lock and so on. I am not sure about Cygnar at all since I meta and I do not see too much action from it, but I say explore and see how it works for you.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
I'm back.

Looking around the many fora on the internet about Warmahordes gives you a certain look on how the game should be played - People talk about how different models work great together, and how some warcasters are an almost must to use. I know, however, that that isn't the truth - You guys have told me pver and over that all models are usuable if you dedicate some support and thought to them.

The point to this post is pretty simple - I have a slew of Cygnar and Mercenary models people don't mention very often, and I want to know your take on that - Why they aren't mentioned and if that is justifiable, if possible. Don't worry, I've already learned that I shouldn't be asking about what works and what doesn't, so this isn't a "guys, why can't I use this"-thread, but more of a "Why don't we hear about this more?"-thread.

So lets forget the Gun Mages and the Stormwall/eHaley-combo and dive into the unused!

The Avenger, Centurion and Hammersmith - While I hear about the Centurion and the Hammersmith from time to time, the Avenger is almost unheard off where I turn. I know what it is and what it does, but it seems strange that more people aren't mentioning it more.

The Sentinel - Yeah, it might not be killy, but it is pretty hardy for a light 'jack. Why isn't it used to defend squishies more?

Silver Line Stormguard - As I mentioned a couple of days ago, why isn't this used as a defensive unit of Cygnar? People want soemthing hardy to stop the enemy from crossing your lines, this is it, isn't it?

The Storm Strider - I don't get this. An electrical bowlingball on legs, and people ignore it? How?

There are others, but these eludes me the most - If you have an answer, please leave it here.

The Avenger isn't seen much because the Defender shoots better, Quake is on every Ironclad and it doesn't do anything better than the others, and the Stormclad is far better in combat and requires less focus from the caster. Also the Stormwall exists.

The Sentinel probably will see more play because of shield guard this year, but it's still a warjack and there are better things options to take up warjack points. Also the Bokur does the same job and can get in and do some work.

Silverline are boned because of Boomhowlers and Forge Guard. Yes, mercs who do the tarpit far better than they do. You won't seem them much outside Nemo. Also you have Sword Knights who are close to half the unit cost who can also tarpit and get a bonus if they can flank with a warjack.

Striders suffer from same thing that most of the battle engines to. They will die to a stiff breeze and you won't get much return on the points. The same effects it gets from lightning can be found on everything else in the faction that will do more work.

Most of what you mention are really good if used in the correct list even if some of it is corner case. The problem is that there is other stuff that does the same job better that is more flexible.

I'm seeing the Sentinel more thanks to Siege's new Theme. 3 point Shield Guard to protect the Jrs in addition to the Trench templates and Arcane Shield make them pretty tanky.

Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

Just read on Battle College - Doesn't seem that bad. Not very versatile, of course, but the THINGS it could do with Incinerate...

not going to lie, I like most of what you listed.

The avenger begs to be marshaled to gun mages. Snipe and an attack boost are wonderful for it. Add deadeye for a highly accurate ranged knockdown. I like it far more than the hammersmith.

I'm lukewarm to the sentinel because it is hard to hit with a range 10 gun and still be in shield guard range.

Silverline are still pretty new but I've seen them do well. They are odd in that they are a slow unit that gets the alpha strike through denial. They require some getting used to.

I love storm striders. I own two in fact. The colossal meta hurt them a lot though, people pack more armor-cracking ability these days so battle engines are less survivable than they once were. Also, the kit is expensive so many people pass on it and go straight for stormwall. With that said, they are a great alternative for anyone who is frustrated with ranged infantry killing your dudes.

There are a lot of reasons. Cost, availability, sexiness, surrendering to the net "gods".

A lot of forum talk is about what looks good on paper. And people forget that sometimes units are good for other reasons. Including just fun to play.

And even when some things are considered less than something else, often times the differences are marginal.

Also your meta makes a big difference. For example, if your meta runs a lot of infantry killing stuff, then single wound infantry obviously will be "worse" than other things. Also meta related is what scenarios your meta often plays. Do you play steamroller rules? Or lots of "assassination" games? Also the size of the game matters. it plays differently at 35 points vs 50.

In an ideal world, you play all the stuff a few times yourself and see how it works for you and synergizes with your army and playstyle. This can be expensive, though. Proxying is a thing, but some people aren't a fan of that, either.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

Just read on Battle College - Doesn't seem that bad. Not very versatile, of course, but the THINGS it could do with Incinerate...

Cleansers aren't liked because of low RAT(Spray Tax ftw?) and a very corner case ability in Incinerate. It doesn't help that the Cleanser Officer doesn't help the unit what so ever.

The Reeve of Orboros Unit Attachment is pretty terrible. Even in lists that use Reeves, the UA is often not even considered since it adds very little of worth to the unit. It's the only actively terrible thing in Circle though, although there's some stuff that's kind of marginalized of late.

And stuff.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

Just read on Battle College - Doesn't seem that bad. Not very versatile, of course, but the THINGS it could do with Incinerate...

Cleansers aren't liked because of low RAT(Spray Tax ftw?) and a very corner case ability in Incinerate. It doesn't help that the Cleanser Officer doesn't help the unit what so ever.

Incinerate is actually the only good thing about them. A cloud that also does a very good pow hit to whatever walks through it is great. And if you get 5-6 of the Cleansers on the same target you actually get a very powerful attack.

The problem is that its short ranged and kinda expensive.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

Just read on Battle College - Doesn't seem that bad. Not very versatile, of course, but the THINGS it could do with Incinerate...

Cleansers aren't liked because of low RAT(Spray Tax ftw?) and a very corner case ability in Incinerate. It doesn't help that the Cleanser Officer doesn't help the unit what so ever.

Incinerate is actually the only good thing about them. A cloud that also does a very good pow hit to whatever walks through it is great. And if you get 5-6 of the Cleansers on the same target you actually get a very powerful attack.

The problem is that its short ranged and kinda expensive.

I didn't mean corner case for the unit, I meant it's corner case for the faction. They have plenty of better AoE's and a couple better "move into here and take damage" abilities.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

This honestly with Feora and her set everything on fire thing too. Being a Menoth player I kinda stick to one jack and its sad because they are supposed to be the definitive unit.

I also don't see many character beasts or jacks. I have seen 1 colossal. And the only battle engine was the Khador one.

The Avenger, Centurion and Hammersmith - While I hear about the Centurion and the Hammersmith from time to time, the Avenger is almost unheard off where I turn. I know what it is and what it does, but it seems strange that more people aren't mentioning it more.

The avenger is a combined arms jack, so it is decent at range and melee but not really all that good at either. For melee you are better off with the hammersmith or probably just a basic ironclad. Ranged wise the problem I have with it is that its threat range leaves much to be desired and it has to directly hit in order to get the knock down. You either have to start taking things like rangers or a trencher master gunner in order to get decent enough RAT to hit anything important. Its crappy threat range means in my experience you rarely get to aim most times. If it knocked down on a hit rather than only on direct hits I would like it a lot more. Also its threat range just sucks, centurion at least as reach to make up for the lower SPD, and the hammersmith has its own movement tricks.

The Sentinel - Yeah, it might not be killy, but it is pretty hardy for a light 'jack. Why isn't it used to defend squishies more?

Its gun sucks, honestly that is the reason. That combined with being horrible in melee leads to it not being used a whole lot. Maybe if strafe wasn't a star attack so when it is marshaled to gun mages it can still use of the attack types while strafing I would see it used. However strafe is a special attack so no rune shot. Also if you really just want a shield guard the Ogrun Bokur is cheaper.

Silver Line Stormguard - As I mentioned a couple of days ago, why isn't this used as a defensive unit of Cygnar? People want soemthing hardy to stop the enemy from crossing your lines, this is it, isn't it?

Their higher cost for a basic infantry unit combined with horrible defense stats leads them getting shot up. Honestly stormguard really needed something more like force barrier or something in order to be an effective front line unit. I would see people fielding them with Nemo3 due to all the lightning shenanigans that list has and the damage buff for electrical attacks would be nice. I have fielded the normal stormguard several times and honestly I never had a whole a lot of issues dealing with melee infantry with them, between set defense and dirge of mists from Rhupert Carvolo they were usually fine. Also I like deploying normal stormguard in a check-board formation taking full advantage of reach.

The Storm Strider - I don't get this. An electrical bowlingball on legs, and people ignore it? How?

It can't deal with stealth and the physical cost of the model are the main reasons I haven't picked one up. I keep running into stealth heavy list anymore at my LGS, last game I played was against eLylyth. Also yea what 12thRonin said, it looks really squishy on paper for its points.

 Blaque wrote:
The Reeve of Orboros Unit Attachment is pretty terrible. Even in lists that use Reeves, the UA is often not even considered since it adds very little of worth to the unit. It's the only actively terrible thing in Circle though, although there's some stuff that's kind of marginalized of late.

And stuff.

I use them for eMorvahna

Reeves is one thing. They're good with her.

I'm of the opinion that adding the UA actively makes the unit worst, as the benefits it grants are so marginal that you are better spending its points on the UA (who gives them a buff that matters) or two War Wolves (which you were going ot get anyhow).

And stuff.

Sam Machorne and the devil dogs unit. I love using them even though everyone online says they are bad. Everyone says steelheads are better but I never got the hang of them. They seem better on paper but in my durgen/earth breaker list, I haven't found anything that compares to how fun the dogs can be.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Cleansers... just cleansers. Makes me so sad because, seriously, a unit that's armed with flame throwers and is immune to fire? I would deliberately put my own models in the spray attacks just because I could. At least I'll get to do it with reductors

Just read on Battle College - Doesn't seem that bad. Not very versatile, of course, but the THINGS it could do with Incinerate...

Cleansers aren't liked because of low RAT(Spray Tax ftw?) and a very corner case ability in Incinerate. It doesn't help that the Cleanser Officer doesn't help the unit what so ever.

Incinerate is actually the only good thing about them. A cloud that also does a very good pow hit to whatever walks through it is great. And if you get 5-6 of the Cleansers on the same target you actually get a very powerful attack.

The problem is that its short ranged and kinda expensive.

I didn't mean corner case for the unit, I meant it's corner case for the faction. They have plenty of better AoE's and a couple better "move into here and take damage" abilities.

But we don't have many in faction cloud effects. That is why its valuable.

And what "move here and take damage" abilities do we have? Soulstorm is all I can think of that actually might see play.

SilverLine stormguard are huge in my meta. Not really sure why. The 'can't be charged' ability is really nice. At least until you meet Errants who just walk up and hit and kill you on average.

Also, I prefer having electroleap

Avenger- Others have said it- poor threat range, and needs a direct hit to actually get KD, and otherwise a "master of none".

Sentinel- I use this guy all the time with Kraye, because he has some great synergy with it. Free run, light cav move and guided fire make it a very focus-efficient, mobile Infantry killer. Shield guard is great with Krayes large base.

The real reason that the 3 Cygnar jacks don't see as much use is the Stormwall.

As for the Avenger's threat range and accuracy issues, Cygnar has ways of dealing with both easily, and ways to capitalize on a ranged knock down.

Its huge issue is that it came out in the book right before the Stormwall, so the people who would have played around with it put it on the shelf and promptly forgot about it.

The Stormstrider has the issue of being almost as much as a colossal (in $), but costing as much as a heavy jack in game...

I have a feeling battle engines would see more play if their HP was more towards warjack levels ie:30ish rather than 20ish. As it stands, a stern look can knock a 9 point model off the board without too much investment. PP did well in ensuring battle engines didn't break the game, but they did too good a job at it where the meta didn't shift much at all.

nobody wrote:
Its huge issue is that it came out in the book right before the Stormwall, so the people who would have played around with it put it on the shelf and promptly forgot about it.

It was worse than that. The plastic kit for the avenger / centurion / hammersmith took so long to release that it was released in the same month as stormwall.

KingKodo wrote:
Sam Machorne and the devil dogs unit. I love using them even though everyone online says they are bad. Everyone says steelheads are better but I never got the hang of them. They seem better on paper but in my durgen/earth breaker list, I haven't found anything that compares to how fun the dogs can be.

This must be one of those cases where I'm using a different internet. Devil Dogs are amazing! I haven't met anyone who says they aren't.

The only downside they suffer is against things that can't be knocked down. However this does mean that Kayazi show up in Merc lists all over the place instead of tge DDs because you have to tool a tournament list expecting to fight a Colossal. In the case of Mercs that means that all you can really do is ignore it and go for assassination.

Steelheads are good in combination. You expect them to die, but you only paid 6 for 10 of them. You hold the enemy with them until the Steelhead cav can get to the fight and wipe the enemy out.

Dedwrekka wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
Sam Machorne and the devil dogs unit. I love using them even though everyone online says they are bad. Everyone says steelheads are better but I never got the hang of them. They seem better on paper but in my durgen/earth breaker list, I haven't found anything that compares to how fun the dogs can be.

This must be one of those cases where I'm using a different internet. Devil Dogs are amazing! I haven't met anyone who says they aren't.

The only downside they suffer is against things that can't be knocked down. However this does mean that Kayazi show up in Merc lists all over the place instead of tge DDs because you have to tool a tournament list expecting to fight a Colossal. In the case of Mercs that means that all you can really do is ignore it and go for assassination.

Steelheads are good in combination. You expect them to die, but you only paid 6 for 10 of them. You hold the enemy with them until the Steelhead cav can get to the fight and wipe the enemy out.

Or you play with Durgen, and most infantry gets vaporized when somebody decides to pick on the mooks.

 Gyrtop wrote:

Dedwrekka wrote:

KingKodo wrote:
Sam Machorne and the devil dogs unit. I love using them even though everyone online says they are bad. Everyone says steelheads are better but I never got the hang of them. They seem better on paper but in my durgen/earth breaker list, I haven't found anything that compares to how fun the dogs can be.

This must be one of those cases where I'm using a different internet. Devil Dogs are amazing! I haven't met anyone who says they aren't.

The only downside they suffer is against things that can't be knocked down. However this does mean that Kayazi show up in Merc lists all over the place instead of tge DDs because you have to tool a tournament list expecting to fight a Colossal. In the case of Mercs that means that all you can really do is ignore it and go for assassination.

Steelheads are good in combination. You expect them to die, but you only paid 6 for 10 of them. You hold the enemy with them until the Steelhead cav can get to the fight and wipe the enemy out.

Or you play with Durgen, and most infantry gets vaporized when somebody decides to pick on the mooks.

It's called screening, it's a thing you do. You do it with Forgeguard, Steelhead Halberdiers and any infantry model that is made of clunky paper.

For Khador, the things that stand out to me are Assault Kommandos, and the Marauder. In fact I can't even remember the last time I saw a Marauder on the table. The Kommandos have some niche use, but they're far outshined by Kayazy, IFP, Winter Guard of both variety, and Cylena and her Nyss which show up so much in Khador they may as well give them a red bordered card.

Cryx have a Soul Hunters. I don't know of anyone who uses them. I certainly don't.

Cool models though.

The Skarlock Commander I don't think will ever be that useful either

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm seeing the Sentinel more thanks to Siege's new Theme. 3 point Shield Guard to protect the Jrs in addition to the Trench templates and Arcane Shield make them pretty tanky.

Kraye already make sentinel highly competitive with "5" jump away and his spell that boost each of their d6 shots.

OP: I doubt I'll see silver line as long as they have such a needlessly difficult way of getting the models.

 sing your life wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm seeing the Sentinel more thanks to Siege's new Theme. 3 point Shield Guard to protect the Jrs in addition to the Trench templates and Arcane Shield make them pretty tanky.

Kraye already make sentinel highly competitive with "5" jump away and his spell that boost each of their d6 shots.

OP: I doubt I'll see silver line as long as they have such a needlessly difficult way of getting the models.

I see your point. Effort X Benefit just doesn't add up! Now, if talk things like the extremely powerful Jetbike Seer Counsel, people wouldn't mind the hassle, as they are so effective. I don't believe Warmahordes have that kind of unit/model...

I think I'll use Kraye someday - reminds me of Tau, but with more melee killing. Or maybe a list with Stryker2, Commandoes, High Shields w Murdoch and a full unit of Long Gunners...