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Ok, so there was a recent thread on the general forum here about Pet Peeves in Gaming (found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/588535.page - if this thread is not sufficiently different to deserve a separate thread, please report it) and one of the most-hated were people interfering in other peoples games; Leaning over and telling people "That's not how that rule works." "You should move that unit over there and shoot his thing." "Hey, do you mind if I *grabs model before getting an answer*"

I'll start with full honesty - I am one of those guys, at least the part of telling people they're getting rules wrong, or just general hovering around and watching the game. It's a habit that I try (with varying degree's of success) to suppress, and I'd like to increase my resolve to not interfere. So I'm going to lay out a few scenarios and you guys are going to tell me when (or even if) I should interfere:

1) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, an experienced player versus someone new to your gaming club. The experienced player is using a 5th Ed Codex but clearly doesn't have the FAQ's (maybe he just doesn't know they're out there) - his Leman Russes aren't Heavy (Lumbering Behemoth), his Grey Knight Librarian is dispelling the new guy's Blessing (by using his Psychic Hood) etc. but it's not obvious if the experienced player is intentionally cheating or just doesn't know about the FAQ's. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there, display your obvious superiority and knowledge whilst stimulating the part of your brain that gives off endorphins when you correct someone (/sarcasm, from the other thread I already know how this answer is viewed).
b) Wait until after the game and go up to the experienced player to explain that what he did was wrong. Don't talk to the new guy possibly leaving him bummed out after a loss and reluctant to return to the club.
c) Wait until after the game and talk to the new guy, possibly making him cross at the obvious 'cheating' that made him loose. Don't talk to the experienced player, he won't listen.
d) Wait until after the game and talk to both players.
e) Stay out of it, it's not your business.
f) Something completely different.

2) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, and one player is obviously cheating but the other player doesn't seem to know. Any completely made-up rules are hand-waved with a "Sure, go ahead." by the other player, any dice shenanigans are not noticed. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there.
b) Wait until after the game and go up to the cheating player to chew him out about it.
c) Wait until after the game and talk to the other guy, explain what the cheating player was doing.
d) Wait until after the game and talk to both players.
e) Stay out of it, it's not your business.
f) Something completely different.

Do the answers depend on how well you know the players involved? Any other factors that come into play?

I always like to be corrected. It saves my butt in a future competitive game. I guess the people who complain about being corrected want to find out the hard way.

Solution 2: don't be a guy.

This feels like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This feels like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

Sweet. GW going back to their roots.

This depends on the situation. If you feel like the vibe is someone is being taken advantage of, course correct and move on.

It's easier to gauge this by knowing people and their personalities. If I get corrected and it's a big game changer, then I'd like to know it. If you're trying to push an interpretation of a rule, then I don't want to hear it; meaning have a page number ready so it's a quick resolution.

As a third party mediator to a table having troubles, it may be acceptable too.

Again, the situation is the key.

Scenario 1, af the players seem like reasonable dudes you could just jump in and correct them (Inform them of the FAQs). If you do it with a bit of sensetivity and without being all smarmy and superior i think people will be okay with that.

Scenario 2 is more difficult. If you arn't to familiar with the guys playing, and they are good friends you could stir up some trouble there, but if you are totally copelled to do something, taking to the cheater on thier own would probably be the best thing. The noobie need never know, but maybe the cheater will change their ways. if not, its not really your problem anyway.

This is how you don't be 'that guy'.

Ignore it.

In an interesting bit of serendipity this came up in Phil Kelly's column in today's WD (his general consensus is that this is something he tries to avoid), but this really is one of those situational things.
As a for instance I was in a GW watching a staffer playing a game with a customer, back in pre-flyer days. He had a Storm Raven and was explaining to his opponent that his terminators couldn't charge it because it was flying.
Now I figured that either he was ignorant (which was pretty bad for a staffer) or he was cheating (which is worse!).
So I pointed out the fact it was a skimmer and watched it get pulped by thunderhammers. I'll admit I may have sniggered slightly.

So really I think that it depends on why they're getting something wrong- If they're clearly cheating I'd totally interrupt. If they're just getting something wrong (and it wouldn't change the whole of the game) then I'd probably let it slide. If it really is an important point.... maybe. I'd certainly be tempted to interject, especially if it was my friends playing!

All I can say is that if I am playing a game and I get a rule wrong, I want someone to tell me. That way I don't do it again. As far as actually correcting someone the rules I don't really know the rules for any game well enough to have that problem

I would be happy if I were doing something wrong and was corrected. I like to win because I won. Whether that's due to my luck with dice, better playing or what have you. I do not like to win because of the way the rules worked for a situation.

I don't know the rules well enough to be correcting people, but when I played other games and could do the correcting, I generally approached the situation with an attitude of gentle informing. I wasn't all up in their face with how they were wrong, more like "that doesn't quite do that, it would be AWESOME if it did, however, this is how the writers did it here"

I would feel quite miffed if another player came to me firm atop his high horse and lectured me on my knowledge being wrong.

I do however appreciate being told when I am making a mistake, at the end of the day it is a big old tome the rule book and you only learn really by playing.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This feels like a choose-your-own-adventure book.

Turn to page 32 if you choose to interrupt...

Maybe it's just a matter of phrasing-
"No, you got that wrong" may rankle whereas
"Are you sure? I thought that [x] happened" might go down better. Perhaps get them to check the rule rather than calling them out for being wrong.

I step in for rules that I over-hear wrong that I know the answer to. As long as there is a rule book involved it should be okay to try and learn how the game should be played. Personally I care more about playing the rule correctly than benefitting from the effect.

It all depends on how you do it. Going straight in like MR Know-it-all, rubs a lot of people off wrong.

Going in asking first of saying "may I interject, I just noticed a mistake. If I may say...." will go a long way more. Then again if the guy is cheating ignore him and just concentrate on the guy who doesn't know better. I he says "sure please go ahead" then explain what you have saw.

lol.

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with talking to people about things. Unless you know that they'd want to be interrupted, then just let them play their game the way they want to play their game.

After the game, of course, you can point things out to people, but interrupting mid-game is kind of rude, so unless you know the people would be cool, I wouldn't butt in.

I tend to try and 'nudge' people in the right direction. If i hear something, I will just mention it quite casually "Oh I thought it did this instead?" With an air of being confused instead of I know everything.

I find it gives the new player a chance to check if he wants, or the guy making the mistake to check if he wants to be sure he won on skill and not accidentally cheating. It also allows them to ignore me comlpetely if they really don't care about it, so they don't feel like their game has been intruded upon.

 dementedwombat wrote:
All I can say is that if I am playing a game and I get a rule wrong, I want someone to tell me. That way I don't do it again. As far as actually correcting someone the rules I don't really know the rules for any game well enough to have that problem

See, I'm the opposite. If we're playing and we got a rule wrong, I'd rather find out at the end and play the next game with the correct rule. Creates a more balanced game - if the rule is wrong, it's then wrong for everyone. if you got it wrong earlier and it adversely affects someone and then gets corrected, they might be annoyed.

A good example is a recent game of Infinity, we had someone point out half way that we were doing LoS slightly wrong. Enough that in that turn, my friend would have gotten a few ARO shots at me. We found out at a time that was advantageous for me. While we played the rest of the game correctly, I couldn't help but feel a bit bad for my friend, as several models would definitely have been dead and drastically changed the course of the game. it also let me get some shots I wouldn't have before then on him, again changing the course of the game.

If it's someone taking advantage of a noob, you have to say something.

The game might ruin the experience for them and whoknows, leave the hobby

If it's 2 relatively experienced players, they should know the rules that FAQ's are available. It can be brought up afterwards

Not sure how telling people the correct rules makes you "that guy."

Davor wrote:It all depends on how you do it. Going straight in like MR Know-it-all, rubs a lot of people off wrong.

Going in asking first of saying "may I interject, I just noticed a mistake. If I may say...." will go a long way more. Then again if the guy is cheating ignore him and just concentrate on the guy who doesn't know better. I he says "sure please go ahead" then explain what you have saw.

That soemhow makes me think that your gaming club is composed of Victorian gentlemen wearing thier club tux and playing with monocle and top hat on, with thier butler rolling dices for them (as it is beneath a man of thier social rank to roll dice like a waterfront ruffiant)

But seriously, politely interrupting is the way to go rather than dropping an interrupt bomb right into someone else's game

I'd agree that it would be important to interrupt and correct the error.

One thing I'd advise against though it getting to the point, in case of example 1, where it's essentially you versus the other veteran. Then it's no fun for anyone, especially the new player, and the veteran will think you are trying to be a competitive blow hard.

 Quanar wrote:

1) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, an experienced player versus someone new to your gaming club. The experienced player is using a 5th Ed Codex but clearly doesn't have the FAQ's (maybe he just doesn't know they're out there) - his Leman Russes aren't Heavy (Lumbering Behemoth), his Grey Knight Librarian is dispelling the new guy's Blessing (by using his Psychic Hood) etc. but it's not obvious if the experienced player is intentionally cheating or just doesn't know about the FAQ's. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there, display your obvious superiority and knowledge whilst stimulating the part of your brain that gives off endorphins when you correct someone (/sarcasm, from the other thread I already know how this answer is viewed).
f) Something completely different.

A combination of the two. I would interrupt them and inform them of the changes to the rules, but in a polite and informal way. You can both inform them of the rules and not be a d**k at the same time, it's all about how you approach it.

 Quanar wrote:

2) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, and one player is obviously cheating but the other player doesn't seem to know. Any completely made-up rules are hand-waved with a "Sure, go ahead." by the other player, any dice shenanigans are not noticed. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there.
f) Something completely different.

Again, I'd point it out to both players and say something. You don't have to flip the table or throw your hands about to convey that. Just do it politely, and calmly. Something like "Hey mate, I don't think that's how the rule works, you should check it out just to be sure" and then he says "Oh yeah, cheers bro!" Then I say "No worries broham!" Then we fistbump and an explosion happens in the background.

 Quanar wrote:
Ok, so there was a recent thread on the general forum here about Pet Peeves in Gaming (found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/588535.page - if this thread is not sufficiently different to deserve a separate thread, please report it) and one of the most-hated were people interfering in other peoples games; Leaning over and telling people "That's not how that rule works." "You should move that unit over there and shoot his thing." "Hey, do you mind if I *grabs model before getting an answer*"

I'll start with full honesty - I am one of those guys, at least the part of telling people they're getting rules wrong, or just general hovering around and watching the game. It's a habit that I try (with varying degree's of success) to suppress, and I'd like to increase my resolve to not interfere. So I'm going to lay out a few scenarios and you guys are going to tell me when (or even if) I should interfere:

1) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, an experienced player versus someone new to your gaming club. The experienced player is using a 5th Ed Codex but clearly doesn't have the FAQ's (maybe he just doesn't know they're out there) - his Leman Russes aren't Heavy (Lumbering Behemoth), his Grey Knight Librarian is dispelling the new guy's Blessing (by using his Psychic Hood) etc. but it's not obvious if the experienced player is intentionally cheating or just doesn't know about the FAQ's. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there, display your obvious superiority and knowledge whilst stimulating the part of your brain that gives off endorphins when you correct someone (/sarcasm, from the other thread I already know how this answer is viewed).
b) Wait until after the game and go up to the experienced player to explain that what he did was wrong. Don't talk to the new guy possibly leaving him bummed out after a loss and reluctant to return to the club.
c) Wait until after the game and talk to the new guy, possibly making him cross at the obvious 'cheating' that made him loose. Don't talk to the experienced player, he won't listen.
d) Wait until after the game and talk to both players.
e) Stay out of it, it's not your business.
f) Something completely different.

2) There's a game going on on the table next to yours, and one player is obviously cheating but the other player doesn't seem to know. Any completely made-up rules are hand-waved with a "Sure, go ahead." by the other player, any dice shenanigans are not noticed. Do you:
a) Interrupt the game right there.
b) Wait until after the game and go up to the cheating player to chew him out about it.
c) Wait until after the game and talk to the other guy, explain what the cheating player was doing.
d) Wait until after the game and talk to both players.
e) Stay out of it, it's not your business.
f) Something completely different.

Do the answers depend on how well you know the players involved? Any other factors that come into play?

1) a

2)c

I appreciate it when people correct me on a rule. It means that I can have a more fair match. So, I'd correct someone if I saw them breaking a rule or FAQ that they may not be aware of. But if someone is cheating, I would just inform the player after the match. If someone is cheating I'll generally just start playing suicidally to finish the game faster, ask to call it in turn 5 instead of rolling (if he's winning) and then never play him again. The player who's been cheated has a right to handle it for himself and there's no point in having petty arguments in a gaming scene. So, merely inform him about what was going on and see how he handles it.

Cheating, WAAC, ect players I just don't like to play.

For instance; there's a player I don't play anymore and it happened at the final turn of a game.

We were playing kill points and he wants to call it in turn 5 instead of rolling. The game was currently a draw, but I was about to kill 3 squads in the next turn. So, ofcourse, I insisted that we rolled and continued. We continue.

He charges his terminators, librarian and such into my royal court hoping to do some damage and make it a draw and asked me for "a fair fight". I.E: Not using MSS. I said no, because, I needed to if I was going to kill that unit. In the end, I gained warlord and 3 kill points in that turn 6 and won the game and he told me he was never going to play me again as a result of it. I just accepted it because I honestly don't want to play someone who's going to get prissy when he's losing a game.

 Quanar wrote:
Ok, so there was a recent thread on the general forum here about Pet Peeves in Gaming (found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/588535.page - if this thread is not sufficiently different to deserve a separate thread, please report it) and one of the most-hated were people interfering in other peoples games; Leaning over and telling people "That's not how that rule works." "You should move that unit over there and shoot his thing." "Hey, do you mind if I *grabs model before getting an answer*"

Do the answers depend on how well you know the players involved? Any other factors that come into play?

I vote B on number 1 if you have NO idea who these people are. If you know them, screw it. Ask them IF they know it and have the FAQ ready before you do. You know them. they know you're not out to show them up. He won't care.

I vote F on the 2nd 1. If its ACTUALLY cheating... And thats pretty rare and even harder to prove... But if it is, I think you need to have a store employeee come and observe. and pray that they know what the hell they're looking at. Lol.

Thats what you SHOULD do. But damn people. I mean we're mostly adults here. What did you EXPECT to happen when you cheated in front of grizzled vets? You think they'll just shrug and walk it off? No.

And if its just a mistake, you think that vet that didn't realize there was an FAQ WANTED to cheat? HELL NO. He probably thanks you for telling him.

So I think it comes down to this: the ANNOYING thing is when people disagree not on the rule but the rules interpretation. Some hjave been around long enough to remember the Immobilized Skimmer that moved 12" in the previous round, got immobilized and the dude playing the skimmer says "You still have to roll 6's to hit me because I moved 12" the previous turn".

Now. I had this unpleasant convo. I was dead right about it. But it was before the FAQ came out. So it was plausible that someone COULD...COULD misread the rules. There was room for debate. So what people REALLY hate is when the two adults come to a conclusion and the dude at the tableside starts telling them "nuh uh. nuh uh".

Like the players needed anymore tension? they agreed on the solution to the unclear rule and moved on. WHY ARE YOU STILL YAMMERING. That's when it gets annoying to me. I dont mind being wrong but if the other player and I cant figure it out and we flip a coin or whatever and go with it... LEAVE US ALONE. Lol. there are in FACT debatable rules. Not a ton. Lots get FAQ'd. But they do exist. And sometimes you just have to roll it off. Its in those moments that the tableside opinion machine can be annoying.

Just get them to 4+ it...

*ducks for cover*

I'll be trying to take onboard people's points, especially Ailaros' comment on politeness (some people might be ok with it, some people take it badly - best not to risk it until the game is over) and Loki's reasoning about shifting the balance mid-game.

Thanks for your replies everybody!

I'd probably be the one being cheated against lol. So I guess from my point of view, it would be nice to be told after the game. I don't think making a scene is a good idea. Although I guess it depends on the person cheating, if you know them or not, maybe they are notorious for cheating and the new player doesn't know that? If that's the case, you could straight up warn the new player, and you don't have to be aggressive about it, just casually say something like "be careful playing this guy "

I don't think you can encompass this though just under the guise of "rule monitoring". Some dudes just hover to hover and give their input without ever being asked... This drives me insane; the "why'd you take that unit, why'd you move that, or why'd didn't you do this"

It got so bad one time with a certain "monitor" that I turned and said I did that because your mom told me to. She advises me on everything in my life, from what to wear each day to what kind of cologne she prefers I wear when I take her out to dinner.