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Space Marnes, Chapter Tactic-Iron Hands

Iran Hands- 1850

HQ:
1x Master of the Forge- 90pts

Troops:
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, rhino- 195pts
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, rhino- 195pts
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, rhino- 195pts
10 man tac squad, 1MM, 1meltagun, meltabombs, rhino- 200pts

Fast Attack:
Stormtalon, Skyhammer- 125pts
Stormtalon, Skyhammer- 125pts
Stormtalon, Skyhammer- 125pts

HS:
1x Stormraven (TL aslt can, TL MM), hurricane bolters- 230pts

Other:
1x Imperial Knight Errant- 370pts

Plan: Fairly Simple, deploy rhinos and Imperial Knight on the board, make the opponent pick between the two targets. Use the Knight's meltablast and D weapon if it is alive, ferry the tac sqauds to where they need to be, unloading their bolters, kicking ass with FNP, rhino's regaining HPs with IWND. Put the Master of the Forge in storm raven, which now regains a HP/ fixes weapon destroyed on 3+ and also regains an HP on 5+ with IWND. Storm talons get IWND also. Clear the skies and gain air superiority, using the tacticals and errant to shoot at ground AA, once skies and armor is cleared or I need more bolter shots, use the storm raven with AC and Hurricane Bolters. Near the end have the tacticals get ferried or run to objectives.

Comments/Critique much appreciated!

Pretty solid, I'd just be carful against someone who fights without reserves as that will be a lot of firepower coming at those metal boxes' armour value 11. But count on the titan to die in turn 1 as he's just a huge threat. This way if he survives he'll be a pure bonus to your tactical nastiness.

P3rtur4bo wrote:
Pretty solid, I'd just be carful against someone who fights without reserves as that will be a lot of firepower coming at those metal boxes' armour value 11. But count on the titan to die in turn 1 as he's just a huge threat. This way if he survives he'll be a pure bonus to your tactical nastiness.

Ya, that is exactly my plan, for him to be a huge fire magnet. If he does ANYTHING more than explode on turn 1, I would be amazed.

I'd be concerned that the air units may come on one by one... are you interested in using formations? If you can, I'd investigate the Storm Wing Formation - 2 stormtalons and a stormraven all coming in on one dice roll!

Other than that, it looks pretty solid to me. The rhinos can screen from turn 1 melta pods hitting the knight, and they fit with the theme of "striking turn 2" or when your air support arrives. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to upgrade a few multi-meltas to lascannons for some additional output on turn 1?

Another concern may be eliminating heavy anti-air on turn 1... you don't have a pod or anything to strike them turn 1.. but the knight may be able to do this with the large blast I guess. Some cheap Inquisitorial divination on him turn 1 may be worth considering though...

Overall, looks pretty good to me!

xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
I'd be concerned that the air units may come on one by one... are you interested in using formations? If you can, I'd investigate the Storm Wing Formation - 2 stormtalons and a stormraven all coming in on one dice roll!

Other than that, it looks pretty solid to me. The rhinos can screen from turn 1 melta pods hitting the knight, and they fit with the theme of "striking turn 2" or when your air support arrives. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to upgrade a few multi-meltas to lascannons for some additional output on turn 1?

Another concern may be eliminating heavy anti-air on turn 1... you don't have a pod or anything to strike them turn 1.. but the knight may be able to do this with the large blast I guess. Some cheap Inquisitorial divination on him turn 1 may be worth considering though...

Overall, looks pretty good to me!

Actually had a thread about the very same question, on whether or not to use the formation, the concluson was that losing out on IWND as well as the fact you get less dice rolls was bad. I can escort the raven with one talon anyway. IWND is too important to lose on all 4 flyers.

As for first turn firepower, I was wondering if I should make some room for a sternguard combi-melta drop pod, but I figured it wouldnt be worth it since I have the IK. I am hoping that the knight will put a hurt on one thing before blowing up. (whether that be AA or something else that needs to be dead).

Assuming you have no points left:

drop one Talon.

spend 90 points on a Libby to buff the Knight.

Invisibility/IWND will both get you very few friends & a very survivable knight

35 points will also buy you up to 3 Servo-Arm Servitors, to pass those repair results on a 2+

 IHateNids wrote:
Assuming you have no points left:

drop one Talon.

spend 90 points on a Libby to buff the Knight.

Invisibility/IWND will both get you very few friends & a very survivable knight

35 points will also buy you up to 3 Servo-Arm Servitors, to pass those repair results on a 2+

The knight does not get IWND, since only Chapter Tactics: Iron Hands get that. I am also not sure if getting the libby is worth it, since it is only a 1/6 chance to get invisibility.

As for the servitors, they are not needed. A HP is repaired on a 5+, but the MOTF has a servo harness, so it then goes to a 4+. Then, CT iron hands give an additional bonus, so it goes to 3+. That combined with IWND gives me a 1:1 chance to repair a hullpoint, I could get a servitor to make it a 7:6 chance, but I am unsure it is worth it.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Assuming you have no points left:

drop one Talon.

spend 90 points on a Libby to buff the Knight.

Invisibility/IWND will both get you very few friends & a very survivable knight

35 points will also buy you up to 3 Servo-Arm Servitors, to pass those repair results on a 2+

The knight does not get IWND, since only Chapter Tactics: Iron Hands get that. I am also not sure if getting the libby is worth it, since it is only a 1/6 chance to get invisibility.

As for the servitors, they are not needed. A HP is repaired on a 5+, but the MOTF has a servo harness, so it then goes to a 4+. Then, CT iron hands give an additional bonus, so it goes to 3+. That combined with IWND gives me a 1:1 chance to repair a hullpoint, I could get a servitor to make it a 7:6 chance, but I am unsure it is worth it.

It may just be me but I usually roll like crap so adding in one servitor and making the roll a 2+ is well worth it. I used to run 2 servitors with my master of the forge but bumped it down to one with Iron Hands. Just a thought.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Assuming you have no points left:

drop one Talon.

spend 90 points on a Libby to buff the Knight.

Invisibility/IWND will both get you very few friends & a very survivable knight

35 points will also buy you up to 3 Servo-Arm Servitors, to pass those repair results on a 2+

The knight does not get IWND, since only Chapter Tactics: Iron Hands get that. I am also not sure if getting the libby is worth it, since it is only a 1/6 chance to get invisibility.

As for the servitors, they are not needed. A HP is repaired on a 5+, but the MOTF has a servo harness, so it then goes to a 4+. Then, CT iron hands give an additional bonus, so it goes to 3+. That combined with IWND gives me a 1:1 chance to repair a hullpoint, I could get a servitor to make it a 7:6 chance, but I am unsure it is worth it.

I meant from the Biomancy power Endurance, which grants Relentless and IWND

I am not sure about spending 90 points on a librarian just for a 1/3 chance to get IWND/Relentless or Invisibility. If it were just that, maybe, but then with the fact that all the enemy would have to do is kill a lone librarian and for that all to go away, Im not too thrilled with that plan. Part of the benefit of the army is that everything has armor. The light armor will be ignored for the BAMF with the Str D, and I am hoping that I can not give away first blood one T1, since they will be focusing on the errant. Having a librarian buffing the errant, in a rhino or not, just makes it a huge target, and it will likely die fast regardless of being in a rhino or not.

I just dont think it would work:
1. 90pts
2. 2/3 chance that nothing happens
3. 1/3 chance that it becomes a huge target
4. Passing the test is not ensured
5. Only increases survivability with a 5+
6. Only if I go second can I use it turn 1.
7. If I go second turn 1, it will probably die.

Its only an idea. I was trying to lengthen the lifespan on your knight was all.

I completely agree that it is quite unlikely to happen, but 90 points is not usually too large an investment. And even if you don't get either of the ones you wanted, just run the Librarian around Psychic Shrieking things. 90 points of angry psyker should be ignored next to the big massive Knight.

Im just throwing ideas around really, and very few of my ideas actually work

 IHateNids wrote:
Its only an idea. I was trying to lengthen the lifespan on your knight was all.

I completely agree that it is quite unlikely to happen, but 90 points is not usually too large an investment. And even if you don't get either of the ones you wanted, just run the Librarian around Psychic Shrieking things. 90 points of angry psyker should be ignored next to the big massive Knight.

Im just throwing ideas around really, and very few of my ideas actually work

I know they are just idea, and thank you for them. I was just listing the reasons I had against it, because I am not sure if I am mistaken or if I am forgetting something obvious (Ive done it quite a bit before lol).

I really dont want to get rid of any of the fliers, since they are not guaranteed to come in from reserves, I want as many rolls as I can get lol.

I could get rid of the hurricane bolters, and 6 of the 8 melta to get 90pts for the librarian. But I dont think it is worth it. I can't see him doing much good, especially if he is replacing a stormtalon or 6 melta weapons.

yeah, replacing 6 Melta weapons is a pretty bad idea in this edition.

I would say to consider it at higher points though, because even to create a 2000 point list you can just add a Termie Librarian with Shield, and theres most of your survival issues with him solved.

umm correct me if i am wrong, but you are saying ur tech marine can repair a hull point, thats 30k, 40k still only immoblised and weapon destroyed. IIRC

I'd be tempted to get rid of the meltabombs in favour of a dozer blade for one of the Rhino's as I imagine you'll want to put some of those Rhino's in cover to begin with.

The thing I would say about the list is that despite people saying the Knight will be a bullet magnet in turn one, in competitive lists most of the effective AT explody weapons come out in turn 2 when flyers and deep-strikers arrive. I think it'll be rare that your Knight does actually die in turn one. That being the case, if I had the odd bit of 'non-dedicated' AT weaponry as your opponent, I'd be aiming it at the rhino's to give my AI firepower some actual effectiveness. Like you say A strength of this list is that it's armour heavy, which will make redundant any AI weapon units in the opponent's army until valid targets emerge. The point being that, I think you'll need to more worry about foot-slogging your marines than worrying about your knight at all.

With this in mind, if you want to free up points, I might recommend replacing one rhino and tac squad with scouts, who have already infiltrated up the board and benefit from your re-enforced cover bonus the Master of the Forge can bring. These guys should strictly be objective holders, and should definitely have camo cloaks. This does leave 1 unit open for AI fire straight away, but they should almost certainly be getting 2 up cover saves at that point so should soak fire quite easily. More importantly, it will refocus how the enemy uses their movement phase in turn 1, which will be critically valuable for your Rhino's to exploit board cover. With the extra points granted from the scouts, you could even grab another techmarine (if my math is correct) to make give two repair rolls to your stormraven, and get a second reinforced cover for your rhino advance.

I could be speaking silly talk, but I'm just voicing stuff as it comes to mind to give you food for thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also of course heavily depends on your metagame.

If you expect to face up against a lot of SM players, you can expect a good few Termies in a land raider. At which point a 5 man Legion of the Damned squad armed with a melta gun, Multimelta and (optional) combi-melta is a great unit for the job. Accurate deep-strike means good chance of the melta rule coming into effect - which means blown up tank. Plus if I'm not mistaken (which I could be) they are then in the same turn free to charge the termies, which because of fearless and 3++ means that you will keep the termies occupied for at least 3 turns. For around 145points you are destroying a 200+ point vehicle and tying up and making worthless a 200+ point squad.

Because legion of the damned firing ignores cover, this also means they wont benefit from cover, and all those sneaky jink skimmers like Wave Serpent-spam and Hammerheads/Skyrays will be quaking in their boots. Even pretty damn effective against enemy knight lists, except at that point the combi-melta isn't optional, it's sort of required.

Again, only viable if a rhino-squad is relinquished though.

 xandermacleod wrote:
*Nectar from the gods*

Soooo many ideas that I just love.

1. I threw in the meltabombs just because I had the extra points, but I agree that it would be nice to have dozerblades on one of the rhinos to tank advantage of cover (usually in my metta, there isnt enough area terrain for more than a couple vehicles).

2. I love the idea to get extra points. Tossing in some scouts with cloaks in reinforced cover for a 2+ save just sounds great. If I need the more points, I definitely will do that. The bonus that the enemy will refocus on their movement is just gravy.

3. And I may need the more points, because I really like the idea of the legion of the damned, my meta is swarming with single land raiders at 1500+.

Edit: What scouts with cloaks do yall think I should get? Bolters would be decent once enemies would get into rapid fire range. Snipers would be good for putting a wound or two within a 36" radius. CCW/pistol scouts would give them a bonus in assault, which is where they will take most of their wounds, since they dont get their 2+ coversave.

If your scouts get into close combat theyre dead, so don't even worry at all about the pistol & ccw to keep them alive when that time comes. Your only reason for giving them close combat weapons should be to bluff the enemy into thinking that their long-range units should stay out of charge range of the scouts, which is incidentally also usually rapid-fire range. So of all things, close combat weapons and pistol are still your most defensive loadout, but it's actually more defensive against ranged weapons.

Whether you take bolters or snipers I personally think depends on the size of your scout squad. In larger sizes, I think bolters are preferable, whilst with 5 man units, Snipers are preferable.

The reason for this is that bolter squads are there to deal damage, whilst sniper squads are there to take out special weapons. At BS4 a space marine takes an average of 9 bolter shots to cause a single wound, and a terminator 18 shots, so your 5 man squad wont be able to output the number of shots to really make a difference (especially at BS3). With snipers, your only real aim is to shoot at targets where a single precision shot kill makes a big difference, so 5 men is suitable. In such instances, I'd rarely recommend aiming for special characters due to Look Out Sir rolls being so easy. Aim for normal melta-dudes, and even better heavy weapon-dudes.

My advice would be to stay away from bolters consequently. Snipers are the safe, reliable go to option (but don't expect to do more than 2 wounds during the entire game with them, so make those few wounds count!). If you expect a meta-game with many buildings where the scouts can take advantage of elevation id say go with snipers for definite, because the mind-games you can play with CC aren't really there when you can't leap out at any given moment. (And you really should deploy your scouts on a building objective if you can). If most of your games are transport heavy with no elevation terrain, take the ccw and pistol (+ a melta bomb). Why a melta bomb? Again, their loadout isn't to 'actually' be effective, but to act as board control and a deterent for anything to come close to them (other than close combat specialist, who wont care, and which is why elevation is ideal). Transports will be more cautious when advancing, give you a safe path for your rhinos. Make sure to high hell though you really tell your opponent before the game begins though, "see that scout squad, there's meltabombs in there" - maybe even crack some "jokes" that your scout sergeant is just itching to meltabomb something... otherwise your opponent might forget and assume they are 'just scouts' (because sniper scouts are so prevalent). If the opponent forgets that they have nothing to worry about then their effectiveness is actually a bit more limited.

Personally though id go with snipers, they have the advantage of also being 'home-campers' objective wise, which means you can really throw your rhinos forward without needing to worry about your home objective marker/s. Eldar and Tau have easy access to Ignore Cover, so any further afield scouts will die turn 1, so having the long range flexibility of sniper scouts can be handy. Not only that, if they do home-camp, then the AI firepower that will want to hail them will likely not reach, keeping them safe all game.

With a techmarine reinforced cover though, you should always always always have camo cloaks.