Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Allow me to explain. I live roughly 1 hour away from a GW store. It is the only one in the state, so I consider myself pretty fortunate as I'm sure many states in the US/countries outside the US don't even have one. That said, the only reason I go there is to support the store owner & his business. While I do game there on very rare occasions, other then supporting the owner/store I have absolutely no incentive to go there. Here is the breakdown:

- 1+ hour commute each way (Time/gas)
- Every good available in the store is available online, many online items are not available in store
- Free shipping from online orders over (x) value (Which is easy to meet as prices are outrageous)
- Free limited edition models by ordering online, not available by purchasing goods within the store

So what incentives do customers actually have to purchase products within a physical GW store?

To be honest Games Workshop is probably going to move away from brick and mortar stores eventually. Their recent activity by promoting digital products, exclusive online figures, and online benefits help indicate this. Not to mention the numerous benefits of not having to pay the overhead of running these stores.

What their main problem is what happens if they do go online completely. Their stores are credibly a good way to get a non-hobbyist interested or atleast some guy with a kid to shell out cash for cool looking models.

Stores are useful for localized gaming tables and being able to get advice/models. In your case of being out so far, your just out of luck to really receive that benefit.

First thought, GW is the store owner, the dude that works there is only a manager and he does not have any ownership as if it were a franchise.

There is no need to support a local GW, if it were a FLGS then yes, support that store, but every time you buy a GW kit a portion goes to propping up their mostly useless retail arm.

GW has no idea on what to do with the US market.
We are a far different beast than UK/EU as we have less population density and a good amount of FLGS that have been carrying GW for 30 years, thereby making any GW retail locations redundant, irrelevant, and parasitic.

xraytango wrote:
First thought, GW is the store owner, the dude that works there is only a manager and he does not have any ownership as if it were a franchise.

There is no need to support a local GW, if it were a FLGS then yes, support that store, but every time you buy a GW kit a portion goes to propping up their mostly useless retail arm.

This. "Supporting" your local GW doesn't make any sense, it's only "supporting" GW in the same way that buying from GW's website supports GW.

GW has no idea on what to do with the US market.
We are a far different beast than UK/EU as we have less population density and a good amount of FLGS that have been carrying GW for 30 years, thereby making any GW retail locations redundant, irrelevant, and parasitic.

And this. If GW had any clue about how things work outside the UK they'd close all of their pointless stores and let the independent stores do all the work of selling stuff. But instead GW's idiot managers think that FLGS are the enemy and keep throwing money into a losing strategy.

xraytango wrote:
First thought, GW is the store owner, the dude that works there is only a manager and he does not have any ownership as if it were a franchise.

There is no need to support a local GW, if it were a FLGS then yes, support that store, but every time you buy a GW kit a portion goes to propping up their mostly useless retail arm.

GW has no idea on what to do with the US market.
We are a far different beast than UK/EU as we have less population density and a good amount of FLGS that have been carrying GW for 30 years, thereby making any GW retail locations redundant, irrelevant, and parasitic.

Wouldn't it be in GW's best interest to support & empower private business owners & FLGS even if they are not affiliated with GW? I first found out about Warhammer 40k 10-12 years ago by visiting a private FLGS. Since that time, the store has closed as have many other stores carrying GW products in my area. In the event that they have not closed, they no longer carry GW products but instead are now focused on other game systems like Warmachine etc. Having spoken with the owners on a few occasions all of their experiences seemed similar in that trying to communicate/negotiate with GW proved very difficult & non-existent. In recent history GW passed some new trade agreement that was highlighted on MiniWarGaming that forced them to close their physical store.

My fear is this. With everything going direct only/digital & more & more businesses not carrying WH40k products, how will this game system increase its influence & community? Wouldn't be better to support these businesses & make it easier for them to purchase/carry your products?

Anytime anyone buys anything from GW .(Online or in store.).

GW plc get 76% gross profit.

If you spend $100 at GW store or GW web site.
Only $24 coves all the cost of manufacture and development etc.
Less than $10 covers logistic costs
OVER $50 covers the cost of keeping the chain of B&M stores open.
And GW make less than $20 net profit.

So feel bad for all those folk paying for a GW store that have never set foot in one!

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wouldn't it be in GW's best interest to support & empower private business owners & FLGS even if they are not affiliated with GW?

Of course it would be, but GW is run by idiots who think that every country is like the UK. GW's "drive the independents out of business and take all the sales" business plan works great in the UK where they can put a GW store in every town, but the sheer size and low population density of the US makes that impossible. A sensible business would realize that independent stores are a vital part of success in the US market and view them as an ally instead of an enemy, but unfortunately GW is not a sensible business.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wouldn't it be in GW's best interest to support & empower private business owners & FLGS even if they are not affiliated with GW?

Absolutely. As the esteemed Mr Wells said publicly when GW implemented their regional sales restrictions, the brick & mortar store is what it's all about. They are the ones who grow the hobby by providing gaming space, and by having staff on hand who can help prospective gamers with one-on-one interaction.

Since the regional sales policy was implemented, GW have moved to further build their independant trade accounts by restricting around 1000 products from their range to direct sales only. This helps the retailer by cutting down the amount of shelf space they need, thus reducing their overheads.

This is boosted by GW's policy of short-supplying new, high-demand product. If the little mom-and-pop store has pre-orders for 100 of the newest and greatest Space Marine kit, they're clearly going to have a crappy time trying to keep up with sales on the release day, so GW thoughtfully remove this problem by only supplying 3 of the 100 kits the store ordered, with the rest to follow after an indeterminate delay.

And finally, the removal of all GW prize support for organised play means that stores are less likely to run tournaments and campaigns for GW games, thus freeing up table space and staff to run much more profitable MtG events instead.

GW - thinking of the little guy!

I really hope my local gw never closes. The last flg that closed was back in 2002. Since then gw has had a province wide monopoly and has had a steady stream of customers (though they were more plentiful when I was younger I will admit). If they shutter I'd be forced to buy used/eBay for models and I'd need to buy all my painting supplies online or take the day long trek to and from the farthest end of the city from where I live to buy reaper and vallejo brand paints (I'd also need an airbrush). Simply put I'd be doomed to playing with gray miniatures or pre-owned paintjobs, or paying out the ass for paint. And then I'd have to find someone to play with which will be a nightmare.

I'd probably be forced to give it up and sell my army on ebay

Does anyone know if GW stores are just franchise stores or if they're actually owned by GW?

GW stores are owned by GW. They don't do franchises.

GW don't share power!

No but seriously, they really don't, they would never franchise.

IF GW stores closed, and if they did open a franchise chain, what would that do to wargaming?
Most GW stores would close, and reopen as GW sellers, I expect. If GW managers get a head-start on FLGS owners, I expect most would keep going. They could branch out, and stock other lines, to stay viable.

But, as for GW supporting their stores, managers need more leeway. They need an option to adjust prices for promotions. Loyalty schemes, backed by GW itself. The GW shops I've been to have tried to do these kinds of things, but can only do so much.

 Skinnereal wrote:
IF GW stores closed, and if they did open a franchise chain, what would that do to wargaming?
Most GW stores would close, and reopen as GW sellers, I expect. If GW managers get a head-start on FLGS owners, I expect most would keep going. They could branch out, and stock other lines, to stay viable.

But, as for GW supporting their stores, managers need more leeway. They need an option to adjust prices for promotions. Loyalty schemes, backed by GW itself. The GW shops I've been to have tried to do these kinds of things, but can only do so much.

I blame GW's rather insane sales division who fires people for not making quota. And I don't mean not making quota for an extended period of time. They've apparently done it for as short of a time as a month. I understand they want results but frankly if they rod isn't working they need to try and use the carrot method instead.

Lanrak wrote:
Anytime anyone buys anything from GW .(Online or in store.).

GW plc get 76% gross profit.

If you spend $100 at GW store or GW web site.
Only $24 coves all the cost of manufacture and development etc.
Less than $10 covers logistic costs
OVER $50 covers the cost of keeping the chain of B&M stores open.
And GW make less than $20 net profit.

So feel bad for all those folk paying for a GW store that have never set foot in one!

The same could be said about advertising costs for most other companies. When you buy a video game or go to see a movie, a huge chunk of the money you pay is going in to the advertising of it.

It's bull crap how they fire you for missing a quota when they are the ones who drive people to eBay with relentless price gouging on every new kit.

And how are you supposed to sell people on a game that costs £300-400 for a small starting force, they've made it all but impossible to bring new people in.

And the way they treat third party sellers is moronic, why would they push their product when treated so poorly.

GW bosses are drooling idiots driving the company into the ground.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Lanrak wrote:
Anytime anyone buys anything from GW .(Online or in store.).

GW plc get 76% gross profit.

If you spend $100 at GW store or GW web site.
Only $24 coves all the cost of manufacture and development etc.
Less than $10 covers logistic costs
OVER $50 covers the cost of keeping the chain of B&M stores open.
And GW make less than $20 net profit.

So feel bad for all those folk paying for a GW store that have never set foot in one!

The same could be said about advertising costs for most other companies. When you buy a video game or go to see a movie, a huge chunk of the money you pay is going in to the advertising of it.

Which is why it's probably a good thing GW isn't advertising at the moment: I don't think they could afford it.

Actually for the yearly cost for operating two bm GW stores, they could probably run a nice spread of print ads in many of the publications that you find ads from other games in.

Comic books, collectors magazines, and many other nerdy print media.

It worked, and still works for MTG, FFG, D&D, etc. And has as far back as I can remember. I remember many of the ads for everything from D&D to the original Gamma World, Star Frontiers, the various offerings from Palladium as well as many others over the years that I would never have known about if it hadn't been for an advertising campaign.

Granted things are a bit different now with the advent of the interwebs, but there are still ways to advertise even there; perhaps you have noticed the banners at the tops of some of the gaming websites you visit, those are cheap (annoying but necessary) and eye-catching in order to inform you of a service or good that you may want need or didn't know existed.

Advertising, it's a good thing!

xraytango wrote:
Actually for the yearly cost for operating two bm GW stores, they could probably run a nice spread of print ads in many of the publications that you find ads from other games in.

Comic books, collectors magazines, and many other nerdy print media.

It worked, and still works for MTG, FFG, D&D, etc. And has as far back as I can remember. I remember many of the ads for everything from D&D to the original Gamma World, Star Frontiers, the various offerings from Palladium as well as many others over the years that I would never have known about if it hadn't been for an advertising campaign.

Granted things are a bit different now with the advent of the interwebs, but there are still ways to advertise even there; perhaps you have noticed the banners at the tops of some of the gaming websites you visit, those are cheap (annoying but necessary) and eye-catching in order to inform you of a service or good that you may want need or didn't know existed.

Advertising, it's a good thing!

I'm not saying it's not a good thing, I just think GW doesn't have the kind of buffer to advertise and keep themselves far enough in the green to not have to borrow money to expand or handle their debts during a red year.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
IF GW stores closed, and if they did open a franchise chain, what would that do to wargaming?
Most GW stores would close, and reopen as GW sellers, I expect. If GW managers get a head-start on FLGS owners, I expect most would keep going. They could branch out, and stock other lines, to stay viable.

But, as for GW supporting their stores, managers need more leeway. They need an option to adjust prices for promotions. Loyalty schemes, backed by GW itself. The GW shops I've been to have tried to do these kinds of things, but can only do so much.

I blame GW's rather insane sales division who fires people for not making quota. And I don't mean not making quota for an extended period of time. They've apparently done it for as short of a time as a month. I understand they want results but frankly if they rod isn't working they need to try and use the carrot method instead.

It's all momentum. It's not really the sales manager's fault. I was a store manager until the beginning of this year, and my supervisor KNEW, flat out KNEW, that my store was in a bad way due to someone in the real estate division throwing at dart at the city map. However, it's not in their power really to do anything about it, and they had to "let me resign" or be fired.(Which is annoying since my store was improving.) All the decision making power is channeled into Nottingham, that's the problem. The store managers literally can't do anything. Now I can't find a job because I'm sitting with a marketing degree (which told me everything GW is doing in the US is wrong.) that makes me "overqualified" to all of the potential employers that have been decent enough to contact me back.

 Coldhatred wrote:
It's all momentum. It's not really the sales manager's fault. I was a store manager until the beginning of this year, and my supervisor KNEW, flat out KNEW, that my store was in a bad way due to someone in the real estate division throwing at dart at the city map. However, it's not in their power really to do anything about it, and they had to "let me resign" or be fired.(Which is annoying since my store was improving.) All the decision making power is channeled into Nottingham, that's the problem. The store managers literally can't do anything. Now I can't find a job because I'm sitting with a marketing degree (which told me everything GW is doing in the US is wrong.) that makes me "overqualified" to all of the potential employers that have been decent enough to contact me back.

Momentum is a great term to explain a lot of GW's issues. They're all the result of momentum over the last couple decades. I just hope someone throws the emergency brake before it's too late.

one advantage to a GW store is going in there, being able to ask questions pertaining to their games and getting helpful answers instead of "...... I dunno, hey wanna buy some magic cards?"

insaniak wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wouldn't it be in GW's best interest to support & empower private business owners & FLGS even if they are not affiliated with GW?

Absolutely. As the esteemed Mr Wells said publicly when GW implemented their regional sales restrictions, the brick & mortar store is what it's all about. They are the ones who grow the hobby by providing gaming space, and by having staff on hand who can help prospective gamers with one-on-one interaction.

!

Yes as long as it is a GW brick and mortar store, FLGS' have done mosf of the heavy lifting and provided more gaming space than GW currently does and independently provides prize support as well as a place to learn how to play.

ClockworkZion wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Actually for the yearly cost for operating two bm GW stores, they could probably run a nice spread of print ads in many of the publications that you find ads from other games in.

Comic books, collectors magazines, and many other nerdy print media.

It worked, and still works for MTG, FFG, D&D, etc. And has as far back as I can remember. I remember many of the ads for everything from D&D to the original Gamma World, Star Frontiers, the various offerings from Palladium as well as many others over the years that I would never have known about if it hadn't been for an advertising campaign.

Granted things are a bit different now with the advent of the interwebs, but there are still ways to advertise even there; perhaps you have noticed the banners at the tops of some of the gaming websites you visit, those are cheap (annoying but necessary) and eye-catching in order to inform you of a service or good that you may want need or didn't know existed.

Advertising, it's a good thing!

I'm not saying it's not a good thing, I just think GW doesn't have the kind of buffer to advertise and keep themselves far enough in the green to not have to borrow money to expand or handle their debts during a red year.

Hence, why they should close their own stores and let the FLGS' do the work for them.

Tom Kirby was over here for nearly 18 months in 2008 as HQ was being moved from Baltimore to Memphis and yet he still didn't get "it". You would think that the head man, especially one with a background in accounting would have a better sense of cost/benefit analysis and would see with his own fething two eyes the challenges of this market and make adjustment to the peculiarities of the market.

xraytango wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Wouldn't it be in GW's best interest to support & empower private business owners & FLGS even if they are not affiliated with GW?

Absolutely. As the esteemed Mr Wells said publicly when GW implemented their regional sales restrictions, the brick & mortar store is what it's all about. They are the ones who grow the hobby by providing gaming space, and by having staff on hand who can help prospective gamers with one-on-one interaction.

!

Yes as long as it is a GW brick and mortar store, FLGS' have done mosf of the heavy lifting and provided more gaming space than GW currently does and independently provides prize support as well as a place to learn how to play.

ClockworkZion wrote:

xraytango wrote:
Actually for the yearly cost for operating two bm GW stores, they could probably run a nice spread of print ads in many of the publications that you find ads from other games in.

Comic books, collectors magazines, and many other nerdy print media.

It worked, and still works for MTG, FFG, D&D, etc. And has as far back as I can remember. I remember many of the ads for everything from D&D to the original Gamma World, Star Frontiers, the various offerings from Palladium as well as many others over the years that I would never have known about if it hadn't been for an advertising campaign.

Granted things are a bit different now with the advent of the interwebs, but there are still ways to advertise even there; perhaps you have noticed the banners at the tops of some of the gaming websites you visit, those are cheap (annoying but necessary) and eye-catching in order to inform you of a service or good that you may want need or didn't know existed.

Advertising, it's a good thing!

I'm not saying it's not a good thing, I just think GW doesn't have the kind of buffer to advertise and keep themselves far enough in the green to not have to borrow money to expand or handle their debts during a red year.

Hence, why they should close their own stores and let the FLGS' do the work for them.

Tom Kirby was over here for nearly 18 months in 2008 as HQ was being moved from Baltimore to Memphis and yet he still didn't get "it". You would think that the head man, especially one with a background in accounting would have a better sense of cost/benefit analysis and would see with his own fething two eyes the challenges of this market and make adjustment to the peculiarities of the market.

Oh I agree, FLGS should be the public face for GW and keep the online story (just to give people who don't have gaming stores a place to get stuff and give potential new store owners a way to contact GW about becoming partners for their store). I know GW would be loath to just lay off so many employees, so the alternative is they franchise the GW name for stores. That'd give stores more freedom, GW would need less fingers in less pies and everyone is happy.

Actually during that period in 2008 the gang from Nottingham was surprised to find out how easy it is to fire people here in the states, apparently not so simple in UK and other parts of EU.

Incidentally last Monday they fired 20 persons from sales / trade accounts in Memphis.

So dropping employees is rigur du jour for GW.

BrianDavion wrote:
one advantage to a GW store is going in there, being able to ask questions pertaining to their games and getting helpful answers instead of "...... I dunno, hey wanna buy some magic cards?"

My experience with GW stores has been an unhelpful answer and "hey, wanna buy the latest shiney?'

xraytango wrote:
Actually during that period in 2008 the gang from Nottingham was surprised to find out how easy it is to fire people here in the states, apparently not so simple in UK and other parts of EU.

Incidentally last Monday they fired 20 persons from sales / trade accounts in Memphis.

So dropping employees is rigur du jour for GW.

I meant dropping ALL of their stores though, not just the US ones. Franchising the stores would get the weight off their pocketbooks and make stores succeed or fail on their own while allowing them to still control things like uniforms and the employees being familiar with the games.

Sure a franchise would be great, it works for restaurants mostly because people have to eat, it's kind of a thing, but I don't know if a GW franchise would really make it soley on their own product.

In order for it to happen they would have to carry a wider range of products in order to appeal to a wider range of people.

The turnover in personnel is staggering and a franchise owner would undoubtedly get tired of having to get rid of people all the time. I do not see that there would be a significant ROI for the franchisee.

On the upside though a GW franchise as a brand would have to meet certain environmental requirements such as no light bulbs out, working public restroom, clean floors, non-stinky uniformed workers.

The downside would be that employees would likely be disinterested retail servitors that know nothing about the products much as an employee at Sam Goody, Camelot, or other music retailer (they are still in some malls) really doesn't know much about the music they sell, as opposed to an indy store that lives and dies on the enthusiasm of its workers.

I don't think franchising would do any good. It would effectively create a bunch of FLGSs that can only carry GW products. There simply isn't enough there for it to be worth it to GW or the person wanting to run it.

A better system for everyone is GW working with FLGSs and helping them. They should put their stock on a shelf, knowing that PPs stuff will be on the next shelf and then think about how they can make their product better to generate more sales. Instead they just try to pretend they are the entire hobby.

A GW that could give its customers a reason to pick them over their competition and give FLGSs a reason to promote their products would be a much more financially healthy GW.
But no, instead we have situations like what happened with the Warstore (it was then wasn't it?) where GW forced them to cut ties with Beasts of War and didn't give them promotional pictures for the knights release, so the Warstore simply put dreamforge leviathans in the banner add for the knight release and advertised them over the top of the GW ones.

Wayland Games was partnered with BoW, they are in sunny ol' England, The Warstore is nestled in the paradisaic land of New Jersey.

There was some other drama from GW concerning BoW and Wayland games before that though.