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Besides any squadron shenanigans there are a couple of things I desperately want to do, please correct me if I am wrong!

Demolishers with 3 heavy flamers fire all heavy flamers at a squad then demolisher cannoning something else?

the next one I am not sure on but seems legit

Manticore firing 2 rockets in a single turn and at separate targets? 2d3 s10 blasts broken much?

Manticore can't fire the same weapon twice, so no.

it says they count as separate weapons for weapon destroyed results.. now I know that says "for weapon destroyed results" but still leads me to believe they are indeed separate weapons in general sorta like the valkyries missiles, etc

Sinny! wrote:
Besides any squadron shenanigans there are a couple of things I desperately want to do, please correct me if I am wrong!

Demolishers with 3 heavy flamers fire all heavy flamers at a squad then demolisher cannoning something else?

the next one I am not sure on but seems legit

Manticore firing 2 rockets in a single turn and at separate targets? 2d3 s10 blasts broken much?

The Demolisher's main gun is ordnance and you cannot snap-fire templates.

Sinny! wrote:
it says they count as separate weapons for weapon destroyed results.. now I know that says "for weapon destroyed results" but still leads me to believe they are indeed separate weapons in general sorta like the valkyries missiles, etc

They're separate weapons for Weapon Destroyed.
Is firing weapons, Weapon Destroyed?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Sinny! wrote:
Besides any squadron shenanigans there are a couple of things I desperately want to do, please correct me if I am wrong!

Demolishers with 3 heavy flamers fire all heavy flamers at a squad then demolisher cannoning something else?

the next one I am not sure on but seems legit

Manticore firing 2 rockets in a single turn and at separate targets? 2d3 s10 blasts broken much?

The Demolisher's main gun is ordnance and you cannot snap-fire templates.

The argument on the other side is that potms allows you to fire an extra weapon than you normally would be allowed to, ere`go you're not snap firing yet?

Honestly I don't see it being a big problem honestly. It only gives you one extra shot of a gun on one tank per Engineseer and he has to forgo repairs or shooting to do it. And the Engineseer likely has to be outside the vehicle to do it (knowing GW). You pay a tax for it, and the squishy Engineseer is squishy.

As for the Manticore, I have a strong suspicion that even with PotMS you can still only shoot one rocket.

Sinny! wrote:
it says they count as separate weapons for weapon destroyed results.. now I know that says "for weapon destroyed results" but still leads me to believe they are indeed separate weapons in general sorta like the valkyries missiles, etc

FAQ:
Q: If a Manticore suffers a Weapon Destroyed result, does it destroy
all its remaining storm eagle rockets? (p54)
A: Yes.

All 4 missiles are 1 weapon.

 deviantduck wrote:

Sinny! wrote:
it says they count as separate weapons for weapon destroyed results.. now I know that says "for weapon destroyed results" but still leads me to believe they are indeed separate weapons in general sorta like the valkyries missiles, etc

FAQ:
Q: If a Manticore suffers a Weapon Destroyed result, does it destroy
all its remaining storm eagle rockets? (p54)
A: Yes.

All 4 missiles are 1 weapon.

Not in the new book they aren't.

The Limited ammunition rule makes it pretty clear that only 1 missile can be shot per turn.

Only a single rocket can be fired by a Manticore Rocket Launcher in each of the Manticore’s Shooting phases.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sinny! wrote:
it says they count as separate weapons for weapon destroyed results.. now I know that says "for weapon destroyed results" but still leads me to believe they are indeed separate weapons in general sorta like the valkyries missiles, etc

You answered your own question. They only count as separate weapons for Weapon Destroyed results.

Yep, if you want a squishy enginseer walking pace with a Demolisher, feel free. You would be awfully close to something ugly if you are using flamers. Rules-wise the Demolisher cannon can be fired with POTMS.

Agreed that for the purpose of firing, the Manticore cannot fire more than one rocket.

Nice thought though! I just wish I could have Manticores in a squadron...

You cannot, as firing ordnance forces all other shooting to be snapshots. No matter what you do.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You cannot, as firing ordnance forces all other shooting to be snapshots. No matter what you do.

PotMS, page 40 of the rulebook (emphasis mine):

In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out, nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

Sounds like a specific enough wording for this rule to overrule the Ordnance one in my mind.

Reread. Firing ordnance at another target still means the vehicle has fired ordnance, so all heavy flamers have to snap fire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Reread. Firing ordnance at another target still means the vehicle has fired ordnance, so all heavy flamers have to snap fire.

And PotMS says "one more weapon at Full BS than normally permitted" which skirts around Ordnance forcing all other weapons to snap fire. It's saying a second weapon gets to shoot at full BS despite the vehicle being limited to snap fire the other weapons. It's really not different from a vehicle moving more than 6" and being forced to snap fire things but getting to shoot one weapon normally despite that. If Ordnance invalidates PotMS then so does moving at Cruising Speed.

Again: the ordnance weapon is using potms to fire at another target. Agreed?

THAT is the weapon that can fire at fill bs. None of the others. Meaning they must still snap fire.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again: the ordnance weapon is using potms to fire at another target. Agreed?

THAT is the weapon that can fire at fill bs. None of the others. Meaning they must still snap fire.

In that situation, yes, if it's not shooting at a different target, then PotMS applies just fine.

I was responding to this specific situation of using a demolished cannon at one target and flamers at another.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I was responding to this specific situation of using a demolished cannon at one target and flamers at another.

Fair enough. Obviously I didn't pick that up from your post.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I was responding to this specific situation of using a demolished cannon at one target and flamers at another.

I am curious still exactly how ordinance and PoTMS do interact RAW. But the best I can see you getting would be Demolisher cannon and one Flame firing. Here is why, assuming PoTMS can override the Ordnance rule for one weapon:

When you chose to fire the Demolisher, the ordnance rule kicks in making all other shots snap fire. And since all weapons fire at the same time regardless of how you choose to roll the dice you can no longer choose to fire the flamers at all do to snap-fire.
Now PoTMS would allow one weapon to fire at normal BS, thus overriding snap-fire and allowing the flamer to both fire and target a different unit from the demolisher.

As far as I know the jury is still out on if PoTMS can over ride Ordnance though.

PotMS raises the number of weapons you can fire at full ballistic skill. Leeman russ are Heavy Vehicles. All Vehicle types have a number of weapons they can fire at full BS depending on how far they move. That number is *All of them* when stationary, and *All of them* at combat speed. It increments the number of weapon BS shots by one, it does NOT overrule any weapon firing specifics.

You fire any ordnance, every other shot of your potential pool becomes a snap shot, no matter how many or at which targets. So you go from being able to fire all your other weapons as snap shots, to all your other weapons +1 as snap shots.


So no.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
PotMS raises the number of weapons you can fire at full ballistic skill. Leeman russ are Heavy Vehicles. All Vehicle types have a number of weapons they can fire at full BS depending on how far they move. That number is *All of them* when stationary, and *All of them* at combat speed. It increments the number of weapon BS shots by one, it does NOT overrule any weapon firing specifics.

You fire any ordnance, every other shot of your potential pool becomes a snap shot, no matter how many or at which targets. So you go from being able to fire all your other weapons as snap shots, to all your other weapons +1 as snap shots.

So no.

I see "all other weapons" as being more general than "one more than usual" which is why I read it differently with the more specific instance overruling the general one (as the rules typically do) and see it as allowing a second weapon to fire as a non-snapshot as long as they aren't firing the Ordnance weapon at a separate target.

That said I think it needs an FAQ just so everyone is on the same page as GW's dev team on this one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Brachiaraidos wrote:
PotMS raises the number of weapons you can fire at full ballistic skill. Leeman russ are Heavy Vehicles. All Vehicle types have a number of weapons they can fire at full BS depending on how far they move. That number is *All of them* when stationary, and *All of them* at combat speed. It increments the number of weapon BS shots by one, it does NOT overrule any weapon firing specifics.

You fire any ordnance, every other shot of your potential pool becomes a snap shot, no matter how many or at which targets. So you go from being able to fire all your other weapons as snap shots, to all your other weapons +1 as snap shots.

So no.

I see "all other weapons" as being more general than "one more than usual" which is why I read it differently with the more specific instance overruling the general one (as the rules typically do) and see it as allowing a second weapon to fire as a non-snapshot as long as they aren't firing the Ordnance weapon at a separate target.

That said I think it needs an FAQ just so everyone is on the same page as GW's dev team on this one.

The intention becomes obfuscated when you consider heavy vehicles.

PotMS allows you to fire one more weapon than usual for your vehicle with split fire. "..the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full ballistic skill than normally permitted" That means fast vehicles can go cruising speed and fire three, standard transports can go combat and fire two, etc. etc. etc.

The vehicle rule states "A vehicle that fires an Ordanace Weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn". I would usually agree with you- but PotMS also finishes with "In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target to any other weapons, subject to all the normal rules for shooting".

All the normal rules includes the snap shot demand of the vehicle rules. So your extra attack at full BS makes your usual attack at full BS become a Snap Shot.

You could fire the Demo cannon
and then all your other weapons would be snapshots
then the Potms kicks in and you could fire 1 of your 3 flamers. Right?

 Exergy wrote:
You could fire the Demo cannon
and then all your other weapons would be snapshots
then the Potms kicks in and you could fire 1 of your 3 flamers. Right?

Wrong order, as far as I can tell.

PotMS ups your number of potential full BS shots when deciding what you fire. Comes into effect in the Techpriest's shooting phase.

Then the Leemans get a shooting phase. Any time you then decide to fire an ordnance weapon, you lose everything else.

 Brachiaraidos wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
You could fire the Demo cannon
and then all your other weapons would be snapshots
then the Potms kicks in and you could fire 1 of your 3 flamers. Right?

Wrong order, as far as I can tell.

PotMS ups your number of potential full BS shots when deciding what you fire. Comes into effect in the Techpriest's shooting phase.

Then the Leemans get a shooting phase. Any time you then decide to fire an ordnance weapon, you lose everything else.

There is only 1 shooting phase the Russes and Enginseer don't get their own. PotMS asks how many weapons can you fire at full Bs? Well now that number is one higher.

How many weapons can the demolisher fire at full Bs when firing the Cannon? With PotMS he can fire 1 mire than that.

Firing at your full BS doesn't get around that you have to snap fire when you've fired Ordnance.

It's exactly the same as using a Signum to fire at a flyer, for example.

Sure, you can fire at your full BS. So even if you have a BS of 10, you need a 6 to hit and can't fire template or blast weapons, because you are snap firing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Firing at your full BS doesn't get around that you have to snap fire when you've fired Ordnance.

It's exactly the same as using a Signum to fire at a flyer, for example.

Sure, you can fire at your full BS. So even if you have a BS of 10, you need a 6 to hit and can't fire template or blast weapons, because you are snap firing.

....Unless you're Tau apparently.

Firing at your full BS doesn't get around that you have to snap fire when you've fired Ordnance. 

It's exactly the same as using a Signum to fire at a flyer, for example. 

Sure, you can fire at your full BS. So even if you have a BS of 10, you need a 6 to hit and can't fire template or blast weapons, because you are snap firing.

It really isn't the same flyers have the Hard to Hit ruke which the FaQ explains beats all and can only be hit by snap shots.

Ordnance is more like being shaken/stunned on all your other weapons which PotMS overrides in the same manner.

AFAICT, you can indeed use PoTMS to mitigate the effects of Ordnance. You need to use PoTMS spirit on the other weapon, though, as other people have pointed out. So you'd fire the Demolisher cannon and then use PoTMS to fire, say, your hull weapon at full BS. If you've got sponson weapon as well, you'll need to pick between the two sponsons and the hull weapon and the other two will be Snap Shotting.

The language for firing other weapons alongside Ordnance is identical to the language for firing weapons when moving at Cruising Speed and the language for firing weapons when Shaken or Stunned. "Can only make Snap Shots".

By contrast, the language for Hard to Hit is "can only be resolved as Snap Shots". I'd argue, therefore, that PoTMS helps if you can only make Snap Shots (it increases the number of full BS shots you can make from 0 to 1), but it doesn't help if the shots can only be resolved as Snap Shots (because whether you can fire 1 full BS shot or 2 or 23, they all get resolved as Snap Shots).