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Hello, I've been thinking about possibly creating a mid and late war panzerspah company, but my main opponent would probably be mid British infantry/armored car and late Welsh guards armor (those quick cromwells!)

Are there any battle reports of german recon car lists vs tanks out there?

Also, any strategies, tips, etc.?

I've got armoured car on armoured can from LW http://www.breakthroughassault.co.uk/2012/06/dragoons-vs-pumas-cauldron.html

http://www.breakthroughassault.co.uk/2012/05/dragoons-vs-pumas-counterattack.html

Having watched some games though - puma lists can work vs shermans as they are faster and can out flank, but normally need some heavy AT as back up. Not seen them vs cromwells - but think it would be a tough match up for the pumas

Yea, the cromwells will be just as quick...

Nice battle reps, which book is your list from?

based on that first puma list from your blog, I would probably downgrade the tigers to stugs or pzIVs (probably the pzIvs for more machine gun options) and switch the howitzers to something like horinse or marders. That would maximize the number of mobile guns out there and allow a two-on-one approach to tackling the cromwells.

Your next best bet is to find some hot stormtrooper dice.

I think that list was from the old earth and steel not sure (I was the staghound list!)

Panzerspah is the best recon list in the game. You have numbers Germans lists sorely miss and a variety of quality tools for the job.

For light vehicles the most important special faction rule by far is Stormtrooper. You have the sped, you can have firepower for flank and even some front armour, what you dont have is armour yourself. Stormtrooper move is rthe answer, if they cant see you they cant shoot you.

Because you are always moving ROF doesn't matter as much as firepower, a gun with high power and ROF 2 is optimal, you get just one shot because you will be constantly repositioning.
However weaker guns with a faster ROF are higher priced, which is ok for tanks but not for armoured cars.

Take enough fast well armed platoons to ensure you can flank all your priority targets, and never be tempted to take any non Veteran list. You need to pass your Stormtrooper skills tests as failing them is the only real way your opponent will get to use direct fire against you.



As for the Pajnzerspah core, Pumas are the best idea. In most lists Pumasare a poor choice, but for Panzerspah Kompanie they really shine. 50pts each, fast and with a decent gun capable of bullying light vehicles from the front and wreck tanks from the flank.
Luchs are cheap but only really any good against infantry and only then when they have the opportunity to stop and shoot. Worse their short gun range meas that bazookas can be maneuvered into position easily to force the tanks to move and lose much of what firepower they have. Not recommended.

Support options.

Avoid the temptation to back up your Panzerspah with heavy tanks, keep to your core. Heavy tanks are slow or expensive both act as a ball and chain to your list.
StuGs are ok as they are cheap, and there is a case for Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers/Aufklärungs for the final assault, which your Panzerspah cannot do..

Panzerwerfers are a very good addition, I think a must have as you will find that Panzerspah can easily corral enemy forces as they maneuver to avoid giving you flank shots.

Try and add some Sd Kfz 251/16 if the list allows. Flamerthrower halftracks offer excellent synergy as they can root out dug in infantry, preferably alongside a Mounted Assault to act as a force multiplier for your Mech Inf.
I cant find a list that does all that.

However on looking the SS-Panzerspähkompanie list from Atlantik Wall is worth a look.
SS are normally too expensive, but with as cheaper core you can afford the price jump and your small vulnerable units passing morale tests is always a good thing.
You get a full spread of armoured cars and light tanks, but notably can fill up the Combat platoons with Pumas.
Weapons Platoons offer SS-Aufklärungs for your objective clearance and defence, and SS-Panzerpionier who can help with toolbox firepower and can take flamethrowers. The Armoured SS-Mortar Platoon looks interesting for smoke options, consisting of three separate pairs which can be used ofr efficient smoking or massed into a large battery.
If prudent with your spending you may still be able to afford some tank or artillery support.

Thank you all for the responses

@Orlanth: Thanks for the really in-depth reply regarding panzerspah usage and build. Couple things though... (all lists building done on Easyarmy)

1) Why panzerwerfers rather than nebelwerfers? I guess I don't see the benefit, unless you're referring to the option to add extra crew to double up on # of or arty? Then that'd be good, though I already have nebels and perhaps the point difference could be spent on other units?

2) Do you think taking pumas would be more than enough Fire power for anti-tank duties? I feel that a heavy tank would distract (via being a sponge) as well as offer capabilities vs tanks if flanks weren't manageable otherwise? Do you think panthers be a better choice than 1 kingtiger or 2 tigers?

3) I stuck between the SS-panzerspah list from Antlantik wall and the panzerspah from the Aufklärungsabteilung PDF (here: http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/Aufklarungsabteilung.pdf )

the SS list is cool, because I've always wanted to play a FV panzerspah. The only problem i have is that if you take one puma squadron, you can't take any other type of tracked vehicles and in the
Aufklärungsabteilung list it is less restricting regarding types of units you can take, such as being able to take 7.5 pak 40s...


Prior to your advice, I imagined take 88s and pak 40s to ambush/plant on objectives, and then send out my various recon cars/pumas to do the dirty work, all while having a Ktiger or a pair of tigers to scare and distract my opponents haha. I'm actually leaning towards the ss panzerspah now though, thanks again. Have you ever faced off against or played as panzerspah personally?

 David Hume wrote:

@Orlanth: Thanks for the really in-depth reply regarding panzerspah usage and build. Couple things though... (all lists building done on Easyarmy)

You're welcome.

 David Hume wrote:

1) Why panzerwerfers rather than nebelwerfers? I guess I don't see the benefit, unless you're referring to the option to add extra crew to double up on # of or arty? Then that'd be good, though I already have nebels and perhaps the point difference could be spent on other units?

The extra crew are mandatory for the metagame, and advisable at all other times. When you add in extra crew at +5pts per rocket launcher it ends up cheaper per (effective) launcher than if you took nebelwerfers. Fire efficiency is always good. Also armoured rocket launchers can move after firing eliminating the major problem of rocket launchers, smoke trails.
I recommend rockets over gun artillery because you easy clock up re-rolls and very large templates even with smaller batteries. This is excellent for annihilating light vehicles and infantry, but firepower 3 against top armour is poor for anti tank.
A battery of three or four Panzerwerfer is quite enough to lay down square pie of doom and doesnt cost a lot for what you get.
If you take the SS Panzerspah the rocket artillery is allied, and is Confident Veteran, which is good as it costs down on price. You dont need fearless artillery.

 David Hume wrote:

2) Do you think taking pumas would be more than enough Fire power for anti-tank duties? I feel that a heavy tank would distract (via being a sponge) as well as offer capabilities vs tanks if flanks weren't manageable otherwise? Do you think panthers be a better choice than 1 kingtiger or 2 tigers?

Yes I do think Pumas are enough against western allies. AT 9 is lethal in the flanks but insufficient for front armour for medium tanks. So you can face off against Stuarts but must flank, this means having lots of Pumas. UYou are helped by the fact that Puma platoons split their vehicles into pairs which is great for trying to be everywhere. Encirclement is key.

If you want to take tanks as a sponge go for 1-2 Konigtigers. Sponges need fire immunity, they need front armour so massive the opponent has no choice but to try and go around. Which is dancing to your tune when the Pumas get to flank.. Tigers are not good for this. Tigers are a force multiplier great with other stuff, Konigtigers are stand alone.
The list I offered doesnt have Konigtigers but other might.

The Aufklärungsabteilung PDF Panzerspah list does however.

An alternative is to go for the Brummbar, found in Assault Gun platoons which are also on the same list and are a very cost effective if slow and short ranged armoured wall. I like Brummbar, and once you see their stats you will too. A proper tactical unit has weaknesses as well as strength, so that they become a lot cheaper than they otherwise would be. Play the strengths play down the weaknesses, enjoy the price difference and profit.

All these toys cost through, Germans cant have it all. Choose carefully.

 David Hume wrote:

3) I stuck between the SS-panzerspah list from Antlantik wall and the panzerspah from the Aufklärungsabteilung PDF (here: http://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/Aufklarungsabteilung.pdf )

Was looking at that, and wrote the above answers in direct sequence. So I actually answered 2 fully before I got to read 3.

 David Hume wrote:

the SS list is cool, because I've always wanted to play a FV panzerspah. The only problem i have is that if you take one puma squadron, you can't take any other type of tracked vehicles and in the
Aufklärungsabteilung list it is less restricting regarding types of units you can take, such as being able to take 7.5 pak 40s...

You cant take tracked Panzerspah platoons, not tracked anything else. This means no Luchs, no loss there, you don't want Luchs. For the record Luchs are great little tanks in RL, WoT and FoW, but you don't want them in Panzerspah kompanie as explained earlier.

 David Hume wrote:

Prior to your advice, I imagined take 88s and pak 40s to ambush/plant on objectives, and then send out my various recon cars/pumas to do the dirty work, all while having a Ktiger or a pair of tigers to scare and distract my opponents haha. I'm actually leaning towards the ss panzerspah now though, thanks again. Have you ever faced off against or played as panzerspah personally?

I would avoid anchors like 88's, I would avoid foot artillery. Your list is mobile Panzerwerfers are still an anchor, but you get so much bang for them its worthwhile, and they can relocate if they have to.

I am not saying the above from direct experience of playing Panzerspah. I like my Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers (and US Armor), but once you go with any form of mobile Germans you can see how it all fits together.

To finish up some sample lists to help inspire you. These aren't necessarily the best combos/choices, I just threw them together.


Sample 2k Panzerspähkompanie from the Aufklärungsabteilung PDF - That ticks all the boxes except for smoke mortars:

Headquarters
Panzerspähkompanie HQ 30pts
1x Sd Kfz 223 (radio) - Cheapest option. It hides all game so it doesn't need stats.

Combat Platoons
3x Puma Panzerspäh Platoon 300pts (900pts)
6x Sd Kfz 234/2 (Puma) - Nine pairs of Pumas. Just try not exposing flank armour to that mess.

Divisional Support
Heavy Tank Platoon 345pts
1x Königstiger (Henschel) - Front armour 16 variant. You can only afford one, expect it to be smoked all game.
Assault Gun Platoon 280pts
4xBrummbär- So efficient at what it they do. Front armour 9 is damn good too.
Gepanzerte Panzerpionier Platoon 265pts- - You take these instead of Panzergrenadier not so much for the ability to bridge obstacles but for the ability to take flamethrowers.
1x Cmd Pioneer MG team w/ Sd Kfz 251/1
6x Pioneer MG team w/ 3x Sd Kfz 251/7 (Pioneer) - This is a full size platoon but with no upgrades, (nice though they are)
Armoured Rocket Launcher Battery 180pts
1x Cmd SMG team, Kfz 15 field car, Kubelwagen, Observer Rifle team
3x Panzerwerfer 42 (5+ crew - counts double)
Company Points: 2000pts on the nose



Sample 2k SS-Panzerspähkompanie - Not as good a list IMHO but has interesting features

Headquarters
SS-Panzerspähkompanie HQ 55pts
1xSd Kfz 234/2 (Puma) - A Puma with Panzer Ace skill rolls, can't resist.

Combat Platoons
4x Puma SS-Panzerspäh Platoon 230pts (920pts)
4x Sd Kfz 234/2 (Puma) - Only one less Puma all told.

Weapons Platoons
SS-Aufklärungs Platoon 190pts - Minimum size due to points restrictions
1x Cmd MG team, w/ Sd Kfz 250/10 (3.7cm) or 251/10 (3.7cm)
4x MG team w/ 2xSd Kfz 250 or 251

Armoured SS-Mortar Platoon 110pts
1x Cmd SMG team, Kfz 15 field car, Kubelwagen, Observer Rifle team
2x Sd Kfz 251/2 (8cm) - Minimum size platoon, still gets to smoke bombard normally. If you can spare the points this is worth upgrading to a full platoon to drop three separate smoke bombardments or one attack bombardment with six tubes.

Support Platoons
SS-Panzer Platoon 545pts
5x StuG G - Nothing wrong with StuGs, but wished there were Brumbars to be had. Didnt buy the Tigers, you could though.
Armoured Rocket Launcher Battery 180pts - Confident Veteran Allied Platoon
1x Cmd SMG team, Kfz 15 field car, Kubelwagen, Observer Rifle team
3x Panzerwerfer 42 (5+ crew - counts double)
Company Points: 2000pts no less/no more.

 Orlanth wrote:

Sample 2k Panzerspähkompanie from the Aufklärungsabteilung PDF - That ticks all the boxes except for smoke mortars:

Headquarters
Panzerspähkompanie HQ 30pts
1x Sd Kfz 223 (radio) - Cheapest option. It hides all game so it doesn't need stats.

Combat Platoons
3x Puma Panzerspäh Platoon 300pts (900pts)
6x Sd Kfz 234/2 (Puma) - Nine pairs of Pumas. Just try not exposing flank armour to that mess.

This HQ selection doesn't work. The PDF says:
You must field at least one Combat Platoon equipped at least in part with the same vehicle as the Company HQ.


So if all you have is Pumas the HQ vehicle must be a Puma also.
One Puma Patrol needs to be replaced with a Light Panzerspah platoon with armored cars to keep the HQ 223,
or you need to find 15pts to field a HQ Puma or 5pts to field a HQ 250/1 and a Halftrack Patrol in place of a Puma Patrol.

@Orlanth Ah yes, you make valid points, thank you again.

One point though:

David Hume wrote:

the SS list is cool, because I've always wanted to play a FV panzerspah. The only problem i have is that if you take one puma squadron, you can't take any other type of tracked vehicles and in the
Aufklärungsabteilung list it is less restricting regarding types of units you can take, such as being able to take 7.5 pak 40s...

Orlanth wrote:
You cant take tracked Panzerspah platoons, not tracked anything else. This means no Luchs, no loss there, you don't want Luchs. For the record Luchs are great little tanks in RL, WoT and FoW, but you don't want them in Panzerspah kompanie as explained earlier.

I was actually referring to the SS list, you can only take pumas if you take a puma squad, unlike the aufk list where you just can't take luchs/puma like you had mentioned. This is the biggest turn off, for me, about the SS list (and the lack of K-tiger options).


Any comments on Stuka pioneer tracks? I can take them with the SS list, I was thinking about taking one to compensate for foot nebels if I don't take the tracked werfers.

Also, are there any other SS-panzerspah lists you're aware of? even mid-war would be cool.

Thanks again for all of your response, if you're ever in Socal, we should play a game.


@AndrasOtto Yes, good observation!

 David Hume wrote:


....earlier comments on Nebelwerfers....

OK, you have Nebelwerfers, they were not a poor buy by any stretch, it is just that vehicle mounted rockets Mobelwerfer/Panzerwerfer etc are superior. This assumes that extra crew is paid for and the relocate move to eliminate smoke trails is observed.

You are best buying four or three Panzerwerfers (I will call them all Panzerwerfer from now on) than any other option. You get large bombardments with rerolls and that is what you are paying for. You can double up to six or eight vehicles, but if you do create a separate bombardment.
Nebelwerfer cant compete on efficiency, but can on raw price, Nebelwerfer are cheaper and you get a decent bombardment with three launchers while having more points to spend elsewhere. Frankly it is a false economy up to a point, always take Panzerwerfer if you can. but Germans have too many tools and not enough resources so sometimes a less efficient but cheaper battery will do.
The fact that three Nebelwerfer are jolly good firepower is the saving grace, Panzerwerfer are even better. Take batteries of three Nebelwerfer for Festungs or Grenadiers lists where you need as many units as possible to hold the line and cant afford to overinvest in indirect fire, again Panzerwerfer are better, but there is a solid argument for spending more elsewhere.
However if ever you are thinking of adding anything beyond a minimum three Nebelwerfer then you are spending points that should be invested in Panzerwerfer instead, so don't take four or more, and don't take any add ons. Either choose minimum cost (three Nebelwerfers) or maximum efficiency (tracked werfers).

 David Hume wrote:

Any comments on Stuka pioneer tracks? I can take them with the SS list, I was thinking about taking one to compensate for foot nebels if I don't take the tracked werfers.

So the one shot rocket artillery. Great if you know exactly what you are doing, not so good if you like to set up a firebase and look for targets of opportunity.
Stuka zu Fuss are a great tool, but your Pioneers are already needed for other roles. Demolitions, flamethrowers, fortifications, mobile assault. The one shot artillery is powerful but remember you lose firepower on ranging in and may be wanting to do something else.

I would nevertheless consider Stuka zu Fuss for SS lists because they are so short of points to spend on artillery. Pioneers may well be your only logical option to buy indirect fire support and still cover the basics. This isnt limited to SS Panzerspah, but any SS list.

All this is pointless if like so many others you just love the look of the Stuka zu Fuss and want to give it a go. For +45pts I cannot complain, and if you hold for the correct opportunity it can really make back its points for you. But because it is one shot, it is strictly an attrition tool, it cannot win a battle for you except by happenstance.

 David Hume wrote:
Also, are there any other SS-panzerspah lists you're aware of? even mid-war would be cool.

I haven't bought any of the mid war lists on EasyArmy. So far I have only paid for Late War western front, and then only the Normandy and generalist lists. So there may be nice lists in Grey Wolf (but really you should only play Soviet with them) and there will be mid and early war lists for you to use. Historically the SS used recon companies throughout the war; though for early war Panzerspah and Panzers will be largely interchangable.
I have the 3rd edition Open Fire and selected access to EasyArmy and don't bother with the books.

 David Hume wrote:

Thanks again for all of your response, if you're ever in Socal, we should play a game.

Terribly unlikely, I don't even know where Socal is, only that I have at least an ocean to cross. But thats for the invite.

 David Hume wrote:

@AndrasOtto Yes, good observation!

Yep, missed that one. As stated my sample lists were thrown together trying to cover all the bases, with a little thought you ought to find better (and legal) lists.
Have to remember that EasyArmy doesn't flag illegal lists.