Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm remembering a Rogue Trader 40k tournament I was involved in a while ago. The way it worked was a bunch of people showed up, played against an opponent for about 2-3 hours, then we rotated opponents by packing up all our models and moving them to an entirely different table with different terrain. More than once, the same thing happened: I started unpacking my models and placing them on the table so I could get them all ready for initial placement as per the rules in the main rulebook. As my opponent watched me as I unpacked all my stuff, three different things amongst three different opponents happened:

The first one asked me "Hey is it okay if I proxy X unit with Y model here?" I was newish to 40k at the time, and new to this particular gaming club in general. Wanting to be a good sport and make a good impression on people, I said sure. Those proxied units ended up single-handedly massacring a bunch of my units and ensured the rest of his army was carried to victory.

The second one looked at all my models and started scribbling up a list on-the-fly. When he was done he gave me the list and started unpacking his models. I lost the game.

The third one watched me as I unpacked my models and rummaged around in his own box of models, selectively placing certain units on the table. And it seemed like every time I placed another unit on the table from the boxes I was unpacking them from, he'd go into his own box and place a unit of his own on the table. Sure enough, all those units were scissors to my paper, rocks to my scissors, and paper to my rocks.

So I wanted to ask the internets at large if this is a common thing in 40k,
if this is an acceptable tactic whether it's common or not,
And would I be a jackass if I refused to start unpacking my models until I saw his army list or something? I'd gladly trade a written army list of my own in return at the same time.

That sounds pretty suspicious in a tournament. Usually in a tournament you have one list that you use for all the games, known beforehand, or perhaps something like other games use where you have two lists and get to pick one.

In a tournament that sounds like blatant cheating at worst, and clear TFG guy behavior at best. For friendly games it's generally assumed that if you know who you're going to be playing beforehand you'll tailor a list against them, but not in a tournament.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That sounds pretty suspicious in a tournament. Usually in a tournament you have one list that you use for all the games, known beforehand, or perhaps something like other games use where you have two lists and get to pick one.

Wish I had known this back then. It was my first tournament ever, though.

 Signal wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
That sounds pretty suspicious in a tournament. Usually in a tournament you have one list that you use for all the games, known beforehand, or perhaps something like other games use where you have two lists and get to pick one.

Wish I had known this back then. It was my first tournament ever, though.

Sucks. But yeah, in a tournament seeing what your opponent places and then placing the counter is like on the same level as using loaded dice. That's why in a tournament you usually need a printed copy of your army list, so you can't pull stunts like that without your opponent going "Hey want a minute, your list says you have unit X, not unit Y"

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Signal wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
That sounds pretty suspicious in a tournament. Usually in a tournament you have one list that you use for all the games, known beforehand, or perhaps something like other games use where you have two lists and get to pick one.

Wish I had known this back then. It was my first tournament ever, though.

Sucks. But yeah, in a tournament seeing what your opponent places and then placing the counter is like on the same level as using loaded dice. That's why in a tournament you usually need a printed copy of your army list, so you can't pull stunts like that without your opponent going "Hey want a minute, your list says you have unit X, not unit Y"

Now admittedly, this tournament happened over a year ago so for all I know the guy who ran tournaments there tightened things up since then.

For some reason I didn't feel the need to talk about it until now.

 Signal wrote:
I'm remembering a Rogue Trader 40k tournament I was involved in a while ago. The way it worked was a bunch of people showed up, played against an opponent for about 2-3 hours, then we rotated opponents by packing up all our models and moving them to an entirely different table with different terrain. More than once, the same thing happened: I started unpacking my models and placing them on the table so I could get them all ready for initial placement as per the rules in the main rulebook. As my opponent watched me as I unpacked all my stuff, three different things amongst three different opponents happened...

Honestly I can't understand why players like this are a thing. Whats the fething point of playing a game like this?

I remember my first tournament, 3rd edition.

Brought my Salamanders, which were pretty mean at close range, and I'd gotten used to getting them close with normal amounts of terrain. Showed up, and there's a few tables with a single piece of terrain each in the middle of the board. I asked the store owner - yes, absolutely, that's all the terrain they had.

So I set up. I was facing another Marine player. Everything was geared for long range. We start playing. He starts shooting my Land Raider. Glance, rolls a Crew Shaken. Glance, Rolls a Crew Shaken. He says this automatically gets upgraded to immobilised because it's already been Shaken. I ask to point this out in the rulebook - it's a store rule, apparently. We're playing a tournament by store rules.

As the game goes on, various other store rules pop up always to my detriment and in the regulars favour, always supported by the owner. After I think turn 3, I turned to my friend, asked for car keys to store my models because I didn't want to leave them unattended at that store, and went and got lunch while he finished the tournament. He had the same experience as me, but a higher tolerance for bs.

This single tournament put me off ever playing another tournament. The store closed about a year later and tried to move to being an online store. This failed soon after. I get some satisfaction out of that for killing my interest in tournaments.

Did that tournament cost money -Loki-? Because as soon as the first house rule came into play I would have asked for a list of all house rules or my money back. In fact if they didn't make it pretty clear that we would be playing a 40k tournament by rules other than the ones in the 40k rulebook, I'd probably take my entry fee back regardless.

It was long enough ago that I just don't remember. I don't think so though, as I wasn't employed at the time and wouldn't have paid an entry fee if there was one.

One of the guys I play against is really annoying about this. It always goes like "hey, any units deepstriking? O RLY, Interceptor and skyfire on everything...

 Signal wrote:

The second one looked at all my models and started scribbling up a list on-the-fly. When he was done he gave me the list and started unpacking his models. I lost the game.

This is not OK. If at a tournament, you should have one list.

In the future, pull out units that you won't be using, one by one, ask for his list when he's done with it, then pull out your real army and army list!

Ha-ha!

As others have said, at tournaments no, as you should have one list.

In friendly games though I don't mind, as long as it is within reason.

For example, sometimes I want to play a certain list that is min/maxed, like running 3 soul grinders at 1000 points, in situations like this I will tell my opponent that they should have more anti armour than usual, just so we can have a game, and not a one sided affair.

If an opponent is just trying to list tailor to beat yours, then that is another matter.

In tournaments, as mentioned, lists are set in concrete unless there is an issue and it's illegal and something needs to be fixed.

Outside of tournaments, I largely think the same thing. None of this "I'm going to write a list as soon as I see yours" nonsense. At worst the lists can be written as soon as points are agreed upon, and you both pick your armies (so at best you're both tailoring towards each other's codexes, not against a specific build).

I've only plyed in 2 tourny's but in both we had to have our list to the TO before hand and he would check them over and make sure they were legal.

On the day, you were only allowed to use the models you had in the list you provided the day or so before and they were also put up for other players to see.

This was good, as you could see your next opponents army and you could try and fgure out strengths and weaknesses before the game knowing that his list would not change.

I like throwing people like this.

Pull out my trunk, pull out trays of ork boyz and put to one side.

They frantically scrabble to flamer and pieplate up their lists,

Then i pull out the battlewagons and meganobz that were at the bottom of the trunk when deployment time comes

Tournaments should be using fixed lists pre-prepared before the day.

Only if the opponent to the changer has a list a list that is hard counter to theirs.

Two words...

Tournament Lists. Given to TO before game starts.

I guess it depends on what the point of the tournament was in the first place. If the point was to start everyone off on an even starting place, then last-minute list tailoring to advantage definitely helps ruin that. But, to be fair, it was already ruined by allowing people to show up with different lists in the first place.

If the point of the tournament was just to win, then you simply got out-played by your opponent, and they deserved to do better than you. It probably would have been better if you started by putting down models you weren't going to use on the table, let your opponent build a list, and then, after he gave it to you, start unpacking your real models.

If the point of the tournament was just to play a few games of 40k, and you don't like playing against people who try their hardest to have stronger lists than you, then don't play in tournaments, as those events tend to collect those kinds of people.

 Ailaros wrote:
I guess it depends on what the point of the tournament was in the first place. If the point was to start everyone off on an even starting place, then last-minute list tailoring to advantage definitely helps ruin that. But, to be fair, it was already ruined by allowing people to show up with different lists in the first place.

If the point of the tournament was just to win, then you simply got out-played by your opponent, and they deserved to do better than you. It probably would have been better if you started by putting down models you weren't going to use on the table, let your opponent build a list, and then, after he gave it to you, start unpacking your real models.

If the point of the tournament was just to play a few games of 40k, and you don't like playing against people who try their hardest to have stronger lists than you, then don't play in tournaments, as those events tend to collect those kinds of people.

If I'm recalling everything correctly, the point of the particular tournament I went to wasn't so much to win as it was just to kick off a new 40k league and facilitate a "meet and greet" atmosphere. Or at least that's how it struck me as, when I showed up and talked to the tournament organizer. Now granted, there were some small prizes at stake, but I think it was something like a box of GW models. And winning wasn't the only thing we were being judged on. We were all handed a "grading sheet" for our opponent on how good their Army looked, their sportsmanship, friendliness, helpfulness, and so on and so forth.

It depends on the tournament - some groups play very casual even when they run a tournament its a casual affair; thus if you are new to their group you might find it takes a little while to get used to.

A few more thoughts:

1) Talk with your opponent/tournament organise before the match. Get an idea of what kind of match it is; what (if any) house rules - FAQs - erratas and the overall flow and aim of the game are.
This gives you a grounding in knowing what to expect and you can thus play on an even field with your opponent.

2) Codex - Rules - FAQ - Errata - House Rules - when you play a game you should always have all these present for the match if you are using them. This means that both players have reference material to check (its a complex game, every one needs to check). It also means that your opponent can't make up "house rules" on the fly or "I'm sure that's fixed on the website". It ends a lot of arguments before they even begin.

3) Paper + Pen = Write your list out.
It takes moments to write out a list and it helps ensure that you play a fair game; you can list down any upgrades you're using as well as what models. That's invaluable reference to you and your opponent.
I'd also suggest adding any modifiers to the core stats onto the army list - so if you take a +1 to hit upgrade write down +1 to hit on the units slot on the army list (its invaluable at reminding you of the perks you've purchased).

4) I'd suggest printing out some quick reference pages - photocopies or custom made charts to list out the base stats, abilities and points costs of your models for your whole faction. It makes a very fast reference table that is quicker than checking the book for such information (of course still bring the book!).



In the end a lot of this game is about information and about ensuring that you don't assume, but know what's going on both in the game and between yourself and your opponent.

Oh, then it went perfectly.

You probably came out with a better sense of who you should, and shouldn't play games with, right?

Oh and I forgot to answer the main question

Generally its not considered good form to change your army list after seeing your opponents; that's why you write out the lists and show them to each other before the match at the same time.

Of course that's general manners and expected behaviour - in casual settings you might well get people changing on the fly; but if they change on the fly you can too; unless you're agreeing to allow them to have the advantage or let them try out a specific list.

There is only one situation I can think of in which I'd say it's okay to change up your list when you get to the table. Namely, if you are trying to play a friendly game so you choose to forgo using certain units because your opponent simply can't deal with them.

For example, if I showed up with 3 Helldrakes and my opponent had zero access to skyfire then I'd likely leave the helldrakes in my case and pull out something else. In other words: I'd change my list simply to make the game more enjoyable for both of us.

That said, I've had a couple opponents change their list after seeing the units I was putting on the table. In each case they asked me if it was okay before hand and I've always said yes. In one case they had a list that they knew my army simply couldn't deal with. In another situation I had beaten my opponent the last 5 times we had played and he just wanted to try a completely different thing; which I was completely okay with. That one ended up being a really close match.

There are three times it is OK to make last second changes to a list in a friendly environment.

1. As clively stated above.
2. Both players agree on a higher (or lower) point limit for whatever reason (maybe one player's model broke and did not have time to repair it, so both players agree to a lower limit).
3. A player (knowingly or not) brings an illegal list (such as 4 Heralds in an Allied Detachment).

No last minute changes are not okay and it's scummy WaaC players that use tactics like that, it's quite frankly cheating and if someone does it call them out for the douche they are.

hobojebus wrote:
No last minute changes are not okay and it's scummy WaaC players that use tactics like that, it's quite frankly cheating and if someone does it call them out for the douche they are.

So you would rather play with/against an illegal list, at a(n) (dis)advantage, or with/against something that will just curb stomp you(r opponent) on Turn 2 with no chance of retaliation?

 Happyjew wrote:
There are three times it is OK to make last second changes to a list in a friendly environment.

1. As clively stated above.
2. Both players agree on a higher (or lower) point limit for whatever reason (maybe one player's model broke and did not have time to repair it, so both players agree to a lower limit).
3. A player (knowingly or not) brings an illegal list (such as 4 Heralds in an Allied Detachment).

I can agree with this assessment.

Every tournament I've ever been to requires you use the store's copy of Army Builder to print three copies of your list. One goes to the TO, one to your current opponent, and one for your reference. Makes it pretty hard to tailor your list.

I have been in a few friendly games, even with close friends, where someone will ask, "Are you taking ___?", be it fliers, deepstrikers, etc. I used to answer honestly, which inevitably lead to them having some big counters for my list. Now I just give an "I'm not sure", and let them make their list. Playing against a tailored list is never fun.

List tailoring is a gaming sin. It's why there's the understanding that you must formulate a TAC list or a force with a purpose and identified deficiencies with plans on dealing with them.

I am always very wary of when I submit lists of what is required down to do I have to preselect my powers substitution and who is my warlord on paper prior to showing up (technically you should, but it's kinda up to the TO).

The oppposite side of the coin is a friendly game that's unbalanced. A new player who cannot yet cope with flyers or some other aspect you might run due to model limitations makes for a lopsided event. It's why in friendly games I try to pull punches with new players. Some people find this offensive, though. *shrug* There's no right answer in pick-up games or tournaments except build a list prior and stick with it.

TheKbob wrote:List tailoring is a gaming sin.

Hardly.

The only thing that list tailoring does is allow you to more accurately adjust the power of your list relative to that of your opponent. It's not a bad thing. It's a tool, whether it's used for good or ill is up to the person wielding it.

For example, I don't think very many people would mind if your opponent showed you his list, and you saw that it was a super-fluff list, so you used that information to adjust your list so it was lower powered. Looking at your opponent's list and then making changes to your own is list tailoring, but in this case it was used to make things better.

The only way that list tailoring for the purpose of making your list stronger is a sin is if showing up with a list stronger than your opponent is itself a sin. Put another way, what you're saying is that strong lists are sinful, not list tailoring.