GW SM Chapter Tactics vs FW SM Chapter Tactics. Which is better?

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**l0k1**

So my local shop has begun to allow SM players to use FW chapter tactics and may soon allow the named characters as well. So I have a few questions for discussion. #1 are the codex chapter tactics better than the FW ones? #2 What about the named characters? From what I have read the FW chapter tactics aren't all that game breaking, but some of their characters are definitely awesome and open up some brutal possibilities. What do you think?

**Makumba**

The mantis samurai one seems to be good , it lets them take divination casters . But it is hard to beat IH and WS , those have very good chapter traits.

**Kain**

Most of the FW Chapter Traits are pretty underwhelming.

1d4chan wrote:Forge World also provided chapter tactics for a whole bunch of later-founding chapters:
Red Scorpions: Can replace tactical sergeants with apothecaries for free (while keeping all their sergeant equipment), and re-roll failed Pinning tests, but cannot go to ground voluntarily or buy camo cloaks, which render scout objective campers useless. Not like you really need them with FNP tacticals.

Carcharodons: Gain fear and tactical marines can exchange any bolt weapon (either the bolter or bolt pistol) for a chainsword or BUY an extra chainsword or combat blade for +1 pt. After winning their first assault or forcing an enemy unit to fallback they go full berserker mode and get Rage with a minor penalty of being forced to consolidate towards nearest enemy unit. Use these rules to proxy your ANGRY MARINES!! if you (for some stupid reason) don't like the idea of badass Space Sharks. Keep in mind that if you use this Chapter Tactic, you can only ally with other Imperial armies, and even then their relationship is downgraded to Desperate Allies. (Note that since all your characters already get Fear from these tactics the Angel of Death Warlord trait is useless to you, meaning theres a 1 in 6 chance of getting a useless trait)

Raptors: Stealth on the first turn and Scouts. Just like their progenitor Raven Guard. Unlike the Raven Guard they can use bolters and bolt pistols as Heavy 1 Rending weapon, making their tacticals and especially sternguards basically anti-everything units, capable of brutally murdering MCs and AV12 or less vehicles. Much better than RG, considering 6-th edition is a shoooty edition, and have a lot of utterly broken MCs that are quite vulnerable to Rending.

Mantis Warriors: Everything not Bulky (so not Assault Marines) get move through cover and hammer of wrath, and if it charges through cover it also get furious charge - this mostly makes tacticals better at melee, where you don't want them to be, but also could make honor guards and vanguard veterans worth their points. If they are primary detachment, they also can re-roll failed seize initiative. But more important, their Librarians get access to Divination, which is priceless.

Executioners: Get something like Stubborn on steroids, ignoring ALL negative Ld modifiers no matter what. Yes, even magic. Their characters inflict ID on to wound rolls of 6 in challenges but must also issue challenges if they got the highest WS in the squad.

Angels Revenant: Get Hatred and Preferred Enemy against Necrons, and if enemy force happen to have no Necrons they become Fearless after losing half the units. The first one is very powerful against Necrons (and considering Newcron popularity you would face a lot of them), but the latter is meh.

Red Hunters: These ones are tricky - you get one-turn-use ability that give one of the six useful special rules (Counter-attack, Monster Hunter, Tank Hunters, Hatred, Skyfire or Interceptor) to X units (including dreads), where X is a number of the current turn, so this bring a bit of risk management into the game. Used properly, this ability could be devastating, for example, this gives you easily the most powerful anti air weapon in the game, four devastators with lascannons and sky fire. This obviously works better when taken in allied detachment as with fewer units you can get more out of a fixed number of special rules. and speaking about allies, they can ally with the Gray Knights and Sisters of Battle as Battle Brothers (as long as their detachment has an Inquisitorial detachment with them).

Star Phantoms: Get to reroll ones on reserve rolls for deep-strikers and can launch army-wide twin-link on all weapons for one turn. Mass-droppod dakka hail of death!

Minotaurs: Get to reroll Pining tests, do not suffer Morale tests from shooting, and get Crusade and +1 charge range on the enemy deploy zone. One of the worst ones.

Fire Hawks: Get +1S for all flamer weapon the turn they deep strike and can get hand flamers for their characters. Their Assault Marines and Vanguards are scoring, but not troops.

Astral Claws: Get Stubborn, their Bikes have Skilled Rider, and their speeders - Scout. Does it remind you of the Dark Angels?

The Minotaurs and Carcharodons have straight garbage tactics, with the Carcharodons having the massive penalty of never having anything better than desperate allies. The Angels Revenant tactic is also terrible unless you're fighting Necrons. Red Scorpions comes with the draw back of no going to ground for a better cover save, and as they're still T4, things like Riptides still clean them off the board, though at least they can survive heldrakes a bit more reliably and tank small arms fire better. The Red Hunters tactic is potentially powerful; but you have to really, really think about when and where you use it as you only get to use it once. But you do get SoB and GK battle brother allies.

Star Phantoms and Fire Hawks are pretty transparently meant to be used for drop pod assaults, but I'd say that generally speaking the Star Phantoms have the better trait.

The Astral Claws are wannabe White Scars/Ravenwing bikers. Go take them in the Tyrant's Legion list you pansy.

Mantis warrior traits are...confusing. The things they apply to are generally the things you don't want in assault. It does benefit honor guard and vanguards though, and Divinitation is pretty goooood. Seize the initiative is fairly meh though.

Unlike 1d4chan, I'm not convinced that ten rending shots from a ten man tactical marine squad is as good as they say for the Raptors. Especially when it means not moving and can't be used when you drop pod down.

The executioner trait is pretty funky and lets your marines pay even less attention to leadership, but honestly Calgar is far better. The ID on a six in challenges is interesting but most marines don't have the volume of attacks to make that something to rely on.

vs

1d4chan wrote:Ultramarines: You have three single-use powers ("Doctrines"), each of which lasts for one turn.
Assault: Re-roll charges, Assault Marines and Bikes get Fleet.
Tactical: Re-roll ones to hit for shooting, Tactical Marines get to re-roll all shots.
Devastator: Re-roll Snap Shots, Devastators are also Relentless unless they disembarked from a transport.
These tactics are not point and click, they require some thinking and proper timing to use correctly. If you are new, you might want to consider easier tactics to take advantage of until you get the hang of things.

Imperial Fists: Bolter Drill - re-roll ones to hit with bolter shots (doesn't apply to Sternguard special ammunition). Also, Devastators (both normal and Centurion) get Tank Hunters and add 1 to building damage rolls. See the Fortifications section for ADL Quad gun shenanigans. Baby's first chapter tactics for newbies.

Sentinels of Terra: Replace reroll all ones with twin-linked at half range with all bolter weapons. Drop pod assault might be your friend here.

Salamanders: Master-Crafted, Master-Crafted everywhere; characters get one weapon Master-Crafted for free (which can include ANY weapon, even one bought as an upgrade). Also can re-roll saves from flame-inflicted wounds and twin-linked flame weapons for you. Just remember you can't twin-link vehicle flame weapons anymore since they don't have the Chapter Tactics special rule. (Also get to re-roll vehicle pen rolls with flame weapons, but when's that going to be any use?)

Raven Guard: Stealth on the first turn and Scouts, but only for non-Bulky models, so not for assault marines. Also, all Jump Packs can be used in movement as well as assault. Jump Infantry also re-roll failed To Wound rolls for Hammer of Wrath hits. This is the only Chapter Tactic other than White Scars with Khan that can run Mech Marines well against a variety of lists.

Iron Hands: Feel No Pain (6+), vehicles and characters get It Will Not Die, and Techmarines/Masters of the Forge get +1 to Blessings of the Omnissiah. Nice. If you plan on bringing lots of vehicles and tanks, and infantry that won't immediately evaporate at the sight of plasma, then the Iron Hands are a must have (as they should be).
To get the most of these Chapter tactics is consider the 6+ FNP as a nice bonus and the IWND as central part of the rule. This means stocking up on as much AV12+ vehicles as you can along with armor saturation. The Chapter Master is the one unit that can make the most of IWND.

White Scars: Generally considered the best Chapter Tactic, the White Scars give all your Bikes the ability to ignore Dangerous Terrain, hit at strength 5 with their hammer of wrath, and +1 to Jink, whereas everybody (except Terminators and Centurions) get Hit and Run. Combine this with the Captain's ability to make Bikers Troops and the abusability of the Salvo 2/3 Grav-guns, and you'll have a very fast, very tough, very killy army that can take on anything short of Screamerstar.

Black Templars: Their characters get re-rolls To Hit and Rending while in challenges and all of their units have Crusader and Adamantium Will. BT are the only ones who can field Crusader Squads, who kept the ability to field a special and heavy weapon in a 5-man squad and take Scouts in their Marine squad. Also, no psykers for you.

I'm pretty sure we've all already covered these.

**l0k1**

Now what about the uses of some of the named characters associated with the FW chapters? The Star Phantom captain(forget his name) let's you bring devastators as elites and heavy support. That seems interesting when coupled with their chapter tactics.

**TheKbob**

Whilte White Scars and Irons Hands are superb, I think FW has them beat.

There's a reason why the tournament scene calls a certain faction "The Red Cheaters."

The Red Hunters, more so ~~using~~ abusing battle brothers with Grey Knights and Inquisition, or with other armies, their tactics are nuts.

I'm waiting for 2014 to shake out the last of the major codecis and rules updates before I make any new 40k armies, but if I do, I fully intend to make Red Hunters as my two primary armies for 40k right now are GKs and SoB with a healthy IG/Inquistion allied detachments.

**gmaleron**

The Raptors have the nastiest named Character in Lias Issodon for this rule alone:

Infiltrate, Isolate, Destroy: If an army includes Lias Issodon its controlling player may select a single enemy unit, Monstrous Creature or vehicle that has been deployed onto the table. After any Scout redeployments have been made, but before the game begins, the chosen unit suffers D6+3 wounds with no AP value if a squad or Monstrous Creature, distributed as shooting hits (assume the attack has originated from the closest unit in Issodon’s force). If the target is a vehicle, it suffers D3 rolls on the Haywire table instead (see page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook).

So for him you have the chance to cripple an important unit or blow up a tank before the game even starts, reason I am considering running an allied detachment of these guys to get him.

**l0k1**

That is pretty awesome! A small ally detachment with him might be pretty nice.

**MajorStoffer**

I run a Minotaurs army myself, and with them, yes, their chapter tactic is mediocre (though the +1 charge range has helped me quite a bit, they're designed to be assault oriented, and crusader does help cover a table faster on foot), what you want from them though is their characters. Lord Asterion Moloc is probably in the top 5 single-model beat-sticks in the game, and earns a VP for every character he kills in a challenge; sergeant, exarch, warlord, doesn't matter. He has a St 6 ap 2 weapon at I5, in terminator armour with a storm shield, chapter master stats and eternal warrior, while also giving your entire force preferred enemy; Space marines. Everything but Chaos applies.

Remember how half the bloody armies in the game are Marines? I sure do, and I drink their tears.

They also get a pretty good, but pricey chaplain who gives the unit he's with all the normal chaplain stuff, but also Rage, and comes with both a powerfist and an Ap3 Crozius, both of which are "specialist" weapons for the extra attack. In an honour guard squad, each member with power weapons is getting 6 attacks on the charge re-rolling to hit.

In addition, they've got a slightly overpriced Devestator upgrade character; a two wound sergeant with a heavy bolter and the option to fire a single St 6, Ap3, Pinning, Sniper round, and gives the entire dev squads preferred enemy against all infantry types, in case you're not fighting Marines or Moloc gets gibbed.

Lastly, they've got a character Contemptor Dreadnought who's pretty beefy; 4+ invlun, an extra attack, better BS, WS, I, plasma cannon and DCCW, and can opt to hit every model in base contact at St 6 AP4 at I 1 instead of his normal attacks. I find this particularly useful against invisible Eldar and the like; I don't need to roll to hit, just to smush.

FW seemed to have designed their Chapter Tactics relative to their characters; minotaurs aren't very good without their characters, while Red Scorpions or Star Phantoms are better on their own, but their characters aren't as much of a boost. though the Red Scorpions librarian is a champ. 2+ invlun if he spends one war charge, knows divination, 2+ armour by default, overall, pretty beastly. Always consider the characters tied to a chapter tactic.

Now if only the Imperial Guard had gotten doctrines like chapter tactics, sigh. Character, flavour, actual hard choices in army composition! say it isn't so!

**scimitar**

Looking at the most useful Badab characters

Red Scorpions
Sevrin Loth is probably the most powerful named character . He is a ML 3 librarian who gets to _choose_ his powers from telepathy, telekinesis and biomancy. Also can spend a charge for a 2++ invuln. Invisibility on demand is pretty nasty.

Ultramarines
Tarnus Vale is interesting for armored formations, he gives all rhino's, landraiders and razorbacks in his detachment a 5++ invuln against glancing hits. His transport also gets BS 5 and tankhunter.

Mordaci Blaylock makes terminator squads scoring.

Salamanders

Harath Shen gives any friendly unit he is in 4+ FNP

Mantis Warriors

Ahazra Redth ML 2 Librarian with divination and a unique power that gives his unit shrouding. Also has a warlord trait giving his unit interceptor and night vision.

**BoomWolf**

Overall the forgeworld chapter tactics and characters are inferior, and the real powerhouse characters are costed appropriately.

HOWEVER, many of them do fill a specific niece army type in a way the codex tactics cannot quite match, or excel at specific game types.

Scorpions have their medic team leaders making squads tougher, encouraging "horde marines"
Carcharodons are unimpressive, but can be decent assault tacticals.
Raptors are not very strong, but adds additional in-game choices for the player, giving versatility.
Mantis allows you to play better in heavy terrain, and would probably rock out in "cities of death" style game.
Executioners I don't really see the point.
Angels Revenant gives nothing of note unless you are about to face necrons and you know it.
Red Hunters mostly let you have fun with SoB teamups, and a late-game superpunch ("omega strike", a rather abandoned playstyle).
Star phantoms are prime example as the best drop-pod army out there.
Minotaurs are for "advance at all costs" army, kina a BT alternative.
Fire Hawk are pretty decent on "deepstrike jump units" tactics.
Astral Claws are another I don't get.

See? they are all specialists, niche tactics for either specific situations, or specific builds.

The characthers I won't go over, but as mention, most are either nothing extraordinary and abilities that can be mostly acquired elsewhere, or beasts with a pricetag to match.
The scorpion's libby is the only one that really stands out, as it is a libby you can PLAN for.

**sing your life**

I think FW chapter tactics are better. This is because FW has the Excorsists, who are the most powerful chapter since they can use any other tactic they want, which makes them far more flexible than any other SM chapter.

**BoomWolf**

sing your life wrote:
I think FW chapter tactics are better. This is because FW has the Excorsists, who are the most powerful chapter since they can use any other tactic they want, which makes them far more flexible than any other SM chapter.

Except you choose ahead while building the list, not at the game.
Effectivly saying "they got no tactics, pick your own", its the same with a custom chapter.

**Bladed Crescent**

MajorStoffer wrote:
I run a Minotaurs army myself, and with them, yes, their chapter tactic is mediocre (though the +1 charge range has helped me quite a bit, they're designed to be assault oriented, and crusader does help cover a table faster on foot), what you want from them though is their characters. Lord Asterion Moloc is probably in the top 5 single-model beat-sticks in the game, and earns a VP for every character he kills in a challenge; sergeant, exarch, warlord, doesn't matter. He has a St 6 ap 2 weapon at I5, in terminator armour with a storm shield, chapter master stats and eternal warrior, while also giving your entire force preferred enemy; Space marines. Everything but Chaos applies.

Remember how half the bloody armies in the game are Marines? I sure do, and I drink their tears.

Minotaurs + Moloc are fun. They may not have the best Chapter tactics out there, but I like their moxy. I'm slowly building up a force of my own. Even with what I've got, I've conditioned the local Grey Knight player to flinch every time he sees bronze.

Lastly, they've got a character Contemptor Dreadnought who's pretty beefy; 4+ invlun, an extra attack, better BS, WS, I, plasma cannon and DCCW, and can opt to hit every model in base contact at St 6 AP4 at I 1 instead of his normal attacks. I find this particularly useful against invisible Eldar and the like; I don't need to roll to hit, just to smush.

Are you sure about the extra attack? I've got IA12 and Aiakos only has 2 attacks on his profile, the same as a regular Contemptor.

**Gitsmasher**

I honestly think minotaurs would make excellent objective holders, and the go to chapter for defending a stronghold in stronghold assault since they are unpinnable, and auto-pass ranged morale checks.

**MajorStoffer**

Bladed Crescent wrote:

Are you sure about the extra attack? I've got IA12 and Aiakos only has 2 attacks on his profile, the same as a regular Contemptor.

You're right, it's so rare that I'm either not ground pounding after the first charge; dreadnought's big weakness is poor volume of attacks an AV12, Aiakos deals with them both, but not through his normal attacks. He's wonderful for mulching a horde of Boyz, Guard or what have you.