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First off i hate to say it but i love the army book, i just wish it had more. I really miss the old combined book but i like the models(tho not rules for) that they gave out in return, That being said a few things i would like to change.

First off core:

I would like for a way to get minotaurs or bestigor back into core. Maybe through special character unlocks, but nothing too over the top like Belial in 40k. Some cheap alternative. Hell Skaven get stormvermin regularly and they have a higher leadership with enough guys. And chaos warriors get throgg to unlock trolls.


Special:

Centigors got messed up in fluff in their second book. I would like them to have forest strider back and some other anti wood elf ability. Maybe hated(for fluff)

Giants, if in any army they should be numerous its beastmen.

Marks on bestigors, Mainly because i want to use my khorngors as khorngors.

Rare:
None of the new models are fit to cost. 275 points was just handed out because GW didnt know if monsters were going to be too overpowered. I think the Cygor could go down almost a whole 100 points. He basically just a beastman hellcannon, so let him be one.

The jabberslythe should be the cost of a chimera. Chimeras are better averall and instead of making them better, make their points justified.

The Ghorgon on the other hand is tricky. Maybe more like 250 points, so you can just fit 2 in a 2000 point game. They are a very situational monster but extremly good at what they do.

I would also like to see something along the lines of what Ogres got with their mammoth. It could even be a transport like the war mammoth is from forge world.

Side note on rare:
One overlooked thing i've noticed playing beasstmen is how good the immune to psyc rares are in beastmen. If you MSU, or just have blocks, the rare units are good at breaking up zones for your army not to panic off the table. That is a great use besides just there stats.

Forgeworld:

I'd like to see skin wolves put in the book.
Also the fimir spellcaster. Maybe as a lord or alternate hero.
war mammoth


Thanks for reading

I would like more options too, but not sure what they could be.

I'd split Centigors into light and heavy cavalry, making the current models light, and adding monstrous Centigors similar to the latest Dragon Ogres (too similar?).

Possibly adapt the Headstone Shard item into a Cauldron of Blood style effect model too, perhaps giving frenzy /hatred to the unit pushing it.

How can anyone like this book? They destroyed all the cool fluff, took away all the benefits of being a cool army, gave us gakky monsters and made everything overpriced

You're not going to get Minos core unless Minos get nerfed. It's an Ogre thing. Yeah you can get it with Throgg but Trolls aren't exactly reliable. You can even sorta get Kroxigor but super expensive.

I don't see Beastmen as using Marks. Marks an enticement to those with CHOICE. Beastmen have no choice. They worship the dark powers regardless. Marks are really the opposite of Beastmen. There aren't Khorne and Nurgle Beastmen. You never see that anywhere in their lore (to my knowledge). I think you need a different mechanism.

I think Beastmen need to be rethought period. What is their thing? I could see them all, every single model, getting like MR1 or even MR2. Or giving some units even a 6+ ward.

Without looking too much I'm sure all the monsters could be lowered in price.

Giants are really their own thing. They aren't Beastmen. They are stupid Sky Titans descendents. No one really has sole claim to them. Now, you could make a Giant that got beastman-ed by warpstone. Which is kind of Cygor anyway...

I'll toss in a few thoughts:

- I feel like Beastmen should be focused on--surprise!--ambushes.
Other than that? I feel like the army should encourage an aggressive approach, with fast, tough units. Like a combat-oriented, less elite version of Wood Elves.

- Minotaurs are too good at what they do. I mean, how do you even price their ability to gain more and more attacks?
Which, whatever, they're expensive. But they still have the same weaknesses as other Monstrous Infantry. So you're paying for a super min-maxed unit; amazing when they can get into combats they can win, and a crippling waste of points, otherwise.
Now, if they just had Frenzy and pursued/overran D6 and cost 10pts less or whatever, that I could get behind.

As for Core Minotaurs...yeah. It'd have to be a Throgg-type deal.

- Skaven getting Stormvermin, a WS4 S3(4) T3 A1 Ld5 model with heavy armour as Core. That...that's nothing special. They perform like Gors in most ways, honestly.
And the whole army gets a bonus to Ld based on ranks, so I'm not quite sure what you mean, there.

- Centigors need a lot of help.
I also think it's weird that Beastmen don't have Monstrous Cavarly. I mean...if anyone should have them, it's Beastmen. Right?
Why not just Dragon-Ogres?

- the Rares are kind of a mess. If the Ghorgon was a bit more generalized of a monster (a little less destructive and a little more survivable), I'd be sold on him.
The Cygor is weird, with his "I throw rocks and hate wizards" thing, but it's not that so much as his cost.

- If anything should cost the full 275pts, it should be the Jabberslythe. It's a crazy-cool idea, and there shouldn't be many of these lying around.
So make it awesome. 5+ Ward, and it's aura deals 2D6+3 - target's Ld in wounds to all units in the area, or something.

- gonna' have to agree with Duke about Marks, though. Beastmen need their own thing.

I actually really like the cygor but points wise he just doesn't seem useful.

I would really like a giant sized chariot at a rare choice. Maybe could also be a variant mount for characters. Something on the huge base would be ver unique.

This release could be done very easily with only 5 releases.

Plastic wargore/beastlord
Plastic Doombull/Gorebest
Plastic Centigors
New big heavy kit on antorack base
Plastic chariot kit.

Then they could add in Dragon Ogres, and Blam New plastic Shaggoth to go with new style. Kit could also make Special character for Warriors of chaos to boost sales.

And if they really wanted a boost for dark elves too they could do a plastic kit for the Harpies.

I really like the idea of the heardstone magic item to become something the units push around. As of right now my only core are chariots and that would really lead me into buying some infantry.

*Also changing Centigors to Monsterous calvary would help alot rules wise and make them more unique, and if you could stilll make them core.

** It really would be nice if they did something to beastman Ambush. If they changed it all to vanguard on the same 1 for one switch but allowed more units to do it (like chariots, I'd be game). If it became basic ambush too would really be a step up.

If you get Dragon Ogres, you don't need Centigors to be Monstrous Cavalry.
...and no army ever is going to get Core MC. That way lies madness.

How about a Herdstone like a Casket of Souls-type deal?

Ambush...it just needs to be like Skaven Gutter Runners or Dwarf Miners or something similar. Put a limit on who can do it, and what size the unit can be, so you don't have 40 Gors or 9 Minotaurs appearing behind your opponent's lines, and you'll be fine.

Yeah, I was just going to write that herdstone = casket or dwarf forge.

IMO, beastmen being born of chaos shouldn't have the *option* for Marks, it should be Required.

I'd love to see combined lists under one chaos god. So if everyone has a mark of slaanesh (for example), then you can units of warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos, and beasts of chaos all in one army, as long as every unit taken as the same mark.

Beastmen should NOT have monstrous cav. You don't have beasts riding beasts. Monstrous Warbeasts I'm all for, which we already have.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Beastmen should NOT have monstrous cav. You don't have beasts riding beasts. Monstrous Warbeasts I'm all for, which we already have.

Centigors are single-model cavalry. Don't see why something like that couldn't be done (don't really understand why Dragon Ogres aren't considered MC).
Besides, I can have a beast riding in a cart pulled by beasts. What's the difference?

Again, I think Marks are an active hand of the gods. And the gods don't really take active hands in Beastmen. Beastmen are simply born of this, corrupted, world. And for them to have marks and visibility to one god would make them part of the great game and then they would be fighting each other which they don't do except at the chieftain level.

Dragon Ogres aren't remotely Beastmen. They precede all the races and even chaos. I get the sense they only put up with WoC because they have to, but they're almost High Elf/Dark Elf in their hoity toity-ness. I can't see them hanging out with forest dwelling furballs. You know every WoC camp has a Dragon Ogre section where they sit around and talk about the olden olden olden days and can't wait for everything to be dead so they can go back to being alone. WoC is always working to make that happen. Beastmen...raiding a village or church or kindergarten isn't going to end the world.

Beastmen with unit upgrades/ army specific mutations makes a lot more sense than marks of chaos, at least in my opinion.

Being able to (in the same style) pay for small upgrades on units of gors would make them unique and give them a boost (not that I think gors need any extra power)

For Beastmen I still think the major issue is pricing per model. Core is (slightly) too expensive, Rares are WAY over the top for what they bring, and even the chariots are a bit high (especially razorgor chariots).

Small adjustments to old things would drastically improve them:
Make Cygors significantly cheaper and add a ward save
Give Ghorgons regeneration and scaly skin 4+
Improve the abilities of the Jabber to justify the points OR reduce it by as much as 100 points for what it currently does.

That aside if one army should have more scary monstrous beasts running around, it should be Beastmen.

Fair point on Dragon Ogres.

The idea of a Mono-God combined army is interesting, but I think that's a whole 'nother thread, right there.

Cheaper models, yes. Possible upgrades? Eh...maybe.

Beastmen having rights to lots of big monsters? I don't really think so. They're Beastmen. Beast. Men. Nothing about them inherently says "we've got more giant creatures stomping around than the average army" to me.
But re-vamped Rares? For sure.

I had thought about lotsa monsters and I'm on the fence. But the problem is if you have a CHOICE of 8 different 250pt monsters, that doesn't matter because your army can't support them (or even close). So what you would have to do is make them 8 different 150-175pt monsters. And we got in a big debate about this already.

I said VC Varghulfs were pretty cool but everyone else disagreed. If you had 6 Varghulf-equivalents in your army, is that worth anything? Are they just going to get murdered in the current meta?

Having 2 stanks is one thing, but having 4 giants, even if you could, would probably be insta-lose.

I pointed to mutations as a more thematic option vs. marks of chaos that other people were championing. I don't think common troops in the beastmen book NEED upgrades as much as a reduction... though mutations could really bolster the usefulness of the current infantry (scaly skin, AP, +1 init, or +1 attack all come to mind as crazy options)

My point on the "monstrous beasts" is that BEASTmen have (already) access to 4 monsters, 1 war beast/ chariot, unique one model cavalry, and a monstrous infantry unit+ character. More creatures squirming around might not be the best option for them in the future, but from a fluff stand point the Beastmen should be the first army to have wild, ravenous monsters added to their ranks. At least that is my opinion.

I agree with all about changes to ambush and reduction in points costs

 DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't see Beastmen as using Marks. Marks an enticement to those with CHOICE. Beastmen have no choice. They worship the dark powers regardless. Marks are really the opposite of Beastmen. There aren't Khorne and Nurgle Beastmen. You never see that anywhere in their lore (to my knowledge). I think you need a different mechanism.

This is the old Pestigor box (Gors who worship Nurgle) that GW used to do. I saw a box myself still sitting unopened at one of the stores I go to.

@Pervertdhermit: maybe Beastmen should be the first to get more monsters. But that doesn't mean that they should get more monsters.
What if Spawns became Special?

@Wilytank: we know that Beastmen used to get marks. But that doesn't mean that they should get them in the future.

I'm not going to touch the current Mark debate. Suffice it so say that I am fine with them having no access, but would not begrudge them being brought back either.

As a Beastmen player the obvious priorities are to rebalance the list against itself to introduce variety, and provide some more tools that the list currently lacks. Any improvement in flavour, composition and new units would then be for expansion once the list is actually working in itself.

- Centigor move to Core and get a price cut. Reavers, Dark Riders and Glade Riders all exist in this slot and I don't think Centigor are any more out of place.
- Centigor can purchase throwing nets that can be used to remove a models ability to Fly if hit, forcing it to use its ground speeds. Immediately provides options against the flying monsters running over the army at present.
- Cygor move to Special and receive a price break of ~100pts. I'd also rework their anti-magic ability to something simpler and more reliable as a defence.
- Bloodgreed provides a Regeneration save depending on the number of counters. IE- Win a combat, get Frenzy. Win twice, get +1 Attack and Regen 6+, 2 rounds is +2 Attacks and Regen 5+. This would then go a long way towards making Minotaurs and Ghorgons better.
- Jabber's aura juiced up in power. Perhaps forbid the General from using Inspiring Presence if he in in range of it, or forbidding rerolls against the test. It is a nice concept and just needs some love.
- Taurox moves Minotaur to the Core slot. It's in his fluff that he has a Minotaur army and it becomes equivalent to Throgg's Trolls, thus leaving the Ogres to their own specialty.
- Beastmen Ambush is simplified so that half the units with it, can choose to deploy as Ambushers. There is no need to introduce a sub-standard version of the same rule if this is supposed to be a signature deployment of the army.

Once the army can slow and Stone-Thrower monsters it will be in a much better state. If it can throw Ghorgons or Jabbers of its own into them, it will also do very well for itself. Any form of Armour Piercing, either from the Lore of the Wild or introducing dedicated weapons (Hunting spears?) would also be lovely.

More than anything I want the army to carve out an identity that isn't simply the poor-mans WoC or WS4 Orcs. If it can be swung into a skirmishy, fast & loose rush army with lots of outflanking, lots of hammer units and really play overwhelmingly aggressive, it would be fantastic. I don't think access to Marks are going to fix the fundamental problems with the army and would prefer any update to fix it mechanically before returning to retcon the new fluff.

In many 2400 points tournaments, Beastmen players have an additional 300 points to spend, as a compensation for their overpriced units. Plus, Minotaurs can get a 50 point banner, and shamans are allowed to generate up to 3 bonus power dice/phase, instead of the limit of 2, that all other armies have.

I like all this, but I'd like to point out that all minos need is heavy armour as an option and some form of scaly skin.

Changing Bloodgreed and making Taurox make them core means that they become ridiculous. A block of 17 with Taurox will become stupidly good. Once they hit combat and start shredding things, they'll start getting a high regen save ASAP.

Some great ideas being bounced around in this thread, but, out of everyone, I agree with Mozzamanx the most. Beastmen like raiding villages and so I think plenty of skirmishing units and/or ones that can Ambush fit the army, backed up by large blocks of infantry and monstrous infantry that really hit hard.

The Lore of the Wild really needs fixing, and I think it should help to augment the above. An augment that makes a friendly unit -1 to hit with shooting, a special type of spell that ensures a certain unit will automatically arrive from ambush, maybe even a spell that takes a friendly unit off the board and sticks it in reserves, with Ambush.

I also think making Centigors fast cav would work pretty well, though I'm not sure about about a move to core. Not because it would be broken or anything, but they don't seem to me like a unit that, fluffwise, would be available in the numerous quantities Core units are meant to be available in.

I think Minotaurs are fine. Bloodgreed's reduced pursuit roll is a good tradeoff for stacking Frenzy. I do think Heavy Armour should be an option as well though and Taurox making (one or all) units of Minotaurs Core makes sense too.

I agree that marks don't make sense, really, but having something akin to marks, i.e. mutations, would work quite nicely and allow for more customizable units, conversion opportunities as well as showing that Beastmen are "Chaos-y".

I'm not sure about having a Herdstone = Casket/Anvil of Doom. After all, no matter how potent, it's just a stone. Imagine the model for that. A bray-shaman and two guards stood around a... stone

The Rare monsters need fixing. Points reduction or some sort of Ward/Regen save is necessary. In the current edition, any monster that's 275 points with no such save is likely to be a waste of points, no matter how good it may be once it hits combat.

I've toyed with writing an updated Beastmen Army Book for a while (I like writing rules), maybe I just will...

I think all the book needs is cheapening of the rares. They're all good. If the ghorgon was 30 points cheaper, and you could buy regen for those points, people would take them. It just needs it's cost adjusted to account for some kind of save. I think, using a chimera as points value example works. Hell! I'd bring my goats back if the monsters got a scaly skin save!

But as for minos, give them heavy armour. If you want to make them core, don't allow bloodgreed to give them regen. It'd be Throgg all over again if you did.

And that mutation idea works. It could go something akin to:
Khorne: +1 strength.
Nurgle: +1 wound
Tzeentch: +1 to a random stat, excluding attacks.
Slaanesh: +1 initiative.

I don't think copying the WoC ones is a good idea, and I don't think any of those are too much. Except maybe for Khornate Beast Banner shenanigans.

I wasn't necessarily thinking each mutation corresponds to a Chaos God (though that itself wouldn't be a bad system either), just having a list of various mutations that each unit could choose certain ones from. So like the Gifts they have now but with some available for normal units to buy, not just characters.

 The Shadow wrote:
I wasn't necessarily thinking each mutation corresponds to a Chaos God (though that itself wouldn't be a bad system either), just having a list of various mutations that each unit could choose certain ones from. So like the Gifts they have now but with some available for normal units to buy, not just characters.

I like my system, because my god I want S5 gor!

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I wasn't necessarily thinking each mutation corresponds to a Chaos God (though that itself wouldn't be a bad system either), just having a list of various mutations that each unit could choose certain ones from. So like the Gifts they have now but with some available for normal units to buy, not just characters.

I like my system, because my god I want S5 gor!

A +1S mutation is not unfeasible, all I'm suggesting is don't say "this is the Khorne mutation"

 The Shadow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I wasn't necessarily thinking each mutation corresponds to a Chaos God (though that itself wouldn't be a bad system either), just having a list of various mutations that each unit could choose certain ones from. So like the Gifts they have now but with some available for normal units to buy, not just characters.

I like my system, because my god I want S5 gor!

A +1S mutation is not unfeasible, all I'm suggesting is don't say "this is the Khorne mutation"

The mutation for each god is simple, effective, allows for enough customisation and follows in theme with both Beastmen, and the other chaos books. Whilst it would be simpler just to copy the other books, giving them frenzy is kind of like a cherry on top of the cherry on top. They get it themselves.

A mutation chart gets complicated especially when you have several characters with different mutations in a unit with a completely different mutation. It starts slowing the turn down as you have to write it all down, whereas keeping it to the chart above will be simple, easy to remember and fluffy.

I think his point is that you can have mutations that provide different augments, but your shouldn't name them after the Gods.

IE- It's not the Mark of Khorne, it's Bloodlust. Or Tzeentch didn't give you wiggly tentacles, it's simply a mutation called 'Wiggly Tentacles'. That way players can still take their S5 Gor, Frenzy and Wiggly Tentacles regardless of theme or background choices.

Even if they keep the god awful fluff that's ruined beasts of chaos they should make it more apparent in how they play. The book makes mention of horns that can go through the strongest armour yet this is not made apparent in anyway. I also would like gors points to be dropped to be put to be down to the same scale as orcs. And the obligatory drop of points/upgrade of abilities for rare. While I liked when minotaurs were core I don't think a basic doombull should be able to bring this about as for the most part characters making units into core is being phased out

Ceann Fine wrote:
I also would like gors points to be dropped to be put to be down to the same scale as orcs.

Gor have M5, WS 4 and I3 for one point more than an Orc boy. They also don't have to deal with animosity and have primal fury. Why should they be priced the same?

Are orcs 6 points?


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Their also the same toughness and are stronger on the charge