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Hi all,

There is no denying that the Reign of Chaos is a sensitive topic. Players seem very divided as to whether this was a good addition to the game and there are horror stories of losing units, generals and entire games to an uncontrollable roll of the dice. At the same time, it's a creative rule that goes a long way towards demonstrating the insanity of fighting the Daemons and reinforces the power of the Dark Gods when they can manifest during an actual game.
I think the Reign of Chaos has great potential but needs refining. It needs to be less influential to the games final result and have much less power to kill indiscriminately, and instead influence the game and force players to adapt their tactics. Instead of randomly removing a Greater Daemon or Level 4 Wizard, it should have more subtle effects that can either be embraced or resisted.

I've been playing 'Chaos in the Old World' and wholly recommend it, which then inspired a new idea for resolving the Reign of Chaos. Hopefully I have achieved:
- Something fluffy and justified by the background.
- Something that doesn't dominate the game in favour of either player.
- Something that isn't too time-consuming or requires excessive book-keeping.
- Something that cannot be wholly controlled, but can be influenced with proper thought.
- Something that provides advantages to both Mono and Mixed armies.
- Something that isn't linked to the Winds of Chaos roll, and thus avoids the current double-whammy effect.


With that in mind, I propose the new Reign of Chaos!


Reign of Chaos


Over the course of a turn, performing certain actions attracts the attention of the Dark Gods. Each time one of the following actions is completed, generate a token of the respective God. Tokens are generated by all players and not only those using Daemons of Chaos.

A token of Khorne is generated by a unit when it completes a successful charge or inflicts an unsaved wound in close combat. A unit can only generate a single token of Khorne per phase.
A token of Tzeentch is generated by a wizard every time they meet the power requirements of a spell during a casting attempt, even if the spell is subsequently dispelled. A token is also generated by a unit that fails a Toughness test as a result of the Warpflame special rule.
A token of Nurgle is generated by a unit every time an enemy fails a Fear Test, or fails a roll To Wound against a Daemon of Nurgle. A unit can only generate a single token of Nurgle per phase.
A token of Slaanesh is generated by a character every time they are required to take a Leadership test, or a unit takes a test using the character's Leadership in place of their own.

At the end of any Daemon player's magic phase, the God with the most tokens in play is considered to be in the ascendant. If a God has no tokens in play, Daemons of that alignment suffer a penalty of -1 to their ward saves. All tokens are removed at the end of a Daemon player's magic phase. While in the ascendant, a God grants all units on the battlefield a special rule (friend and foe). A God remains in the ascendant until the end of the next Daemonic magic phase.:

Khorne Ascendant- All units fight in an extra rank.
Tzeentch Ascendant- All spell attempts benefit from +D3 to their casting value.
Nurgle Ascendant- The Poisoned Attacks special rule will now trigger on a roll of 5+ To Hit.
Slaanesh Ascendant- All Characters without the Daemons of Slaanesh rule suffer from Stupidity.

If a God is already in the ascendant and enough tokens are generated to exceed their sacred number, their attention is turned to the battlefield! These effects come into play immediately upon generating the required number of tokens:

The Blood God’s Wrath- Requires Khorne in the ascendant with at least 8 tokens of Khorne. All models on the table (friendly and enemy) gain the Hatred special rule. Additionally all units with the Daemon of Slaanesh special rule must take a Daemonic Instability test.
Storm of Fire- Requires Tzeentch in the ascendant with at least 9 tokens of Tzeentch. All magic missiles and spells that use the To Wound table benefit from +1 To Wound. Additionally all units with the Daemon of Nurgle special rule must take a Daemonic Instability test.
Putrescent Vitality- Requires Nurgle in the ascendant with at least 7 tokens of Nurgle. All models on the table (friendly and enemy) gain +1 Toughness. Additionally all units with the Daemon of Tzeentch special rule must take a Daemonic Instability test.
The Dark Prince Thirsts- Requires Slaanesh in the ascendant with at least 6 tokens of Slaanesh. Units without the Daemon of Slaanesh special rule can no longer use a character's Leadership in place of their own. This includes use of the general's Inspiring Presence. Additionally all units with the Daemon of Khorne special rule must take a Daemonic Instability test.



Any comments obviously appreciated.

Chaos is suppossed to bring randomness, instability, and the inability to predict, not to make an army undefeatable.
There's good to try and bring new ideas, but if you ever suggested to use these rules against me, I would ask for an additional 25% points allowance for my army.

KeyserSoze wrote:
Chaos is suppossed to bring randomness, instability, and the inability to predict, not to make an army undefeatable.
There's good to try and bring new ideas, but if you ever suggested to use these rules against me, I would ask for an additional 25% points allowance for my army.

How does this make a Daemon army in anyway unbeatable? An extra 25% points allowment due to rules your army can also benefit from? Please, stop overreacting.

The token generating mechanic needs to be tightened up a little. Currently it's very easy for Khorne and Nurgle to claim tokens, however I think it would be very rare that either Slaneesh or Tzentch would ever be in the ascendant.

Overall though I really like the concept. It's effected by what's actually occurring in the battle, rather than how hard the Winds of Magic have passed wind that turn and isn't too over the top.

Its a very clever concept and Im sure its fun to play as but for me its too much. Reign of Chaos is fine, it backlashes as much as it benefits, its not gamebreaking but it represents chaos as a whole

I have one issue about RoC and it's not balance
My issue is that 90% of the time, 5-10 minutes are wasted every turn, rolling dice that have no real effect
And then of course, sometimes one of the players loses the game for no reason at all because ... because Chaos !
I don't mind randomness (I'm playing Skavens after all), but complete and unneeded randomness ?
Nope

That's one thing that is a problem. I think RoC should either be global buffs/debuffs or it should be like one attack. Like if it's a good attack, the DoC player selects one enemy unit, it scatters, resolve. If it's bad, the enemy player selects.

So this feths demons over in the early game. Bloodletters can't charge so they get a 6++ ward. This makes Khorne less likely to be used.

Nurgle will rarely be seen as tzeentch becomes the pseudo super god.

Slaanesh will only be any good against death.

You've made demons most fragile blocks worse.

Okay, fine, fine. So it needs to be re-worked. It's still a good idea.
Refine it! I want to see where this goes. And I'd also like to see a RoC table like Duke is talking about.

You all complain about it, but now demons are actually fluffy and not the super reliable 90 bloodletter win lists they once were.

All it needs is balancing not reworking.

DoC players such as myself that complain are mostly upset about the lack of balance. 7th edition daemons were broken I won't argue that, but the one thing I had hoped for with a new AB was one that encouraged a variety of builds. But because of the stupid BSB/IP rules and disparity between the different daemon bonuses, my khorne/slaanesh daemons haven't seen the tabletop in quite some time. I'm still holding onto the hope that a FAQ fixes our crappy internal balance but i'm sure i'll be disappointed when it finally gets released.

 nathan2004 wrote:
DoC players such as myself that complain are mostly upset about the lack of balance. 7th edition daemons were broken I won't argue that, but the one thing I had hoped for with a new AB was one that encouraged a variety of builds. But because of the stupid BSB/IP rules and disparity between the different daemon bonuses, my khorne/slaanesh daemons haven't seen the tabletop in quite some time. I'm still holding onto the hope that a FAQ fixes our crappy internal balance but i'm sure i'll be disappointed when it finally gets released.

I've been playing competitive demons from a while now, and you know how many times any of those balance issues affected me? Zero. It only turns out that way if you want it to. You can kind of negate the IP/BSB rules by thinking about it.

Never said you couldn't play competitve daemons with the rules designed the way they are right now, in fact you can and i'm sure plenty of fellow DoC players do. I'm not even going to ask you if you take a BSB in a competitve list bc unless you are running a mono list, i'm willing to bet you aren't. I can't think of the last time i ran my empire, dark elves or warriors without running a BSB because of how good the benefit of taking one is. And our general which we pay so so much for, double the cost in most cases of other armies generals, we can't extend IP to unless they are of the same god which to me is stupid (since it doesn't matter to warriors).

 nathan2004 wrote:
Never said you couldn't play competitve daemons with the rules designed the way they are right now, in fact you can and i'm sure plenty of fellow DoC players do. I'm not even going to ask you if you take a BSB in a competitve list bc unless you are running a mono list, i'm willing to bet you aren't. I can't think of the last time i ran my empire, dark elves or warriors without running a BSB because of how good the benefit of taking one is. And our general which we pay so so much for, double the cost in most cases of other armies generals, we can't extend IP to unless they are of the same god which to me is stupid (since it doesn't matter to warriors).

I take a BSB in a unit with the standard of discipline, Regen Plaguebearers. And then I run a chicken with random tzeentch bits.


As for the the cost of the general, how many armies can take a level 4 that is remotely as good as the combat chicken? And the IP is a fluffy point. And I reiterate, don't let it get to you and you won't find it being that much of an issue. In an army that's based around the fickleness of magic, you won't get reliable balance without making them more like the previous Bloodletters of Chaos book.

I am starting to regret my decision to go with VC over DoC, I jumped between the two a lot and I went with VC for more "variety" but for some reason, Daemons just seem more fun to me.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You all complain about it, but now demons are actually fluffy and not the super reliable 90 bloodletter win lists they once were.

All it needs is balancing not reworking.

Hey, I don't play Daemons. And yeah, all it needs is balancing and re-working (i.e. not totally ruining one of the player's days every so often, and taking ten minutes a turn to resolve, etc.). But the OP's idea is pretty solid as separate, independent idea. I don't think the Reign of Chaos table ABSOLUTELY MUST 100% NO DOUBT work like the OP describes. But it could, and it's a decent idea.

I really like the huge variety of things that can happen on that table. Fire and skulls raining from the sky, daemonic possession of enemy units. It's neat. But it takes way too long, usually does nothing, and occasionally decides the game.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You all complain about it, but now demons are actually fluffy and not the super reliable 90 bloodletter win lists they once were.

All it needs is balancing not reworking.

Hey, I don't play Daemons. And yeah, all it needs is balancing and re-working (i.e. not totally ruining one of the player's days every so often, and taking ten minutes a turn to resolve, etc.). But the OP's idea is pretty solid as separate, independent idea. I don't think the Reign of Chaos table ABSOLUTELY MUST 100% NO DOUBT work like the OP describes. But it could, and it's a decent idea.

I really like the huge variety of things that can happen on that table. Fire and skulls raining from the sky, daemonic possession of enemy units. It's neat. But it takes way too long, usually does nothing, and occasionally decides the game.

As a competitive demons player. RoC has never ruined my day. And my turns take less time to resolve than my dark, high, and wood elves.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
As a competitive demons player. RoC has never ruined my day. And my turns take less time to resolve than my dark, high, and wood elves.

I...am not even sure what you're trying to argue about here. Okay, yes. We get it. You're a competitive daemon player. And RoC has never ruined your day. But you must admit, that the possibility exists for it to ruin people's days. That is a fact. Losing your lvl4 Wizard in the first turn as he turns into a Herald of Tzeentch? Could happen.
Skillful playing can mitigate some poor luck. But there are some games where the dice come up snake eyes and box cars at all the wrong times, and you loose, no matter how competitive you or your list might be.

And your turns take less time? Good for you. Another fact: there are potentially more steps to a Daemon player's turn than other armies, due to the Reign of Chaos.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
As a competitive demons player. RoC has never ruined my day. And my turns take less time to resolve than my dark, high, and wood elves.

I...am not even sure what you're trying to argue about here. Okay, yes. We get it. You're a competitive daemon player. And RoC has never ruined your day. But you must admit, that the possibility exists for it to ruin people's days. That is a fact. Losing your lvl4 Wizard in the first turn as he turns into a Herald of Tzeentch? Could happen.
Skillful playing can mitigate some poor luck. But there are some games where the dice come up snake eyes and box cars at all the wrong times, and you loose, no matter how competitive you or your list might be.

And your turns take less time? Good for you. Another fact: there are potentially more steps to a Daemon player's turn than other armies, due to the Reign of Chaos.

To date, I've had my Lord of Change die on turn 1 due to my magic phase being double 1'd twice, I've had my ward saves drop by 1 and my plaguebearers die to a unit of flaming knights more times than I can count. But you know what makes up for it? The fact that you get to drop stone throwers on your opponent's entire army, you get to spawn units. People seem so focused on the bad things they forget the good. And you'd really be surprised at how little RoC affects the game. Maybe it's just me and the fact that I play around decent-really skilled players, but we've mostly memorised our books round here.

If you lose a ward save it doesn't matter if you're "skilled," every single model is competing at a level that isn't remotely indicative of their point value. You've basically lost ~25% of your army that turn and DoC is...barring a few builds, CC heavy.

Same way goes for +1. If you can pull off a bonus to ward every round, you can be about the suckiest player around you're going to curbstomp everyone because a 4+ ward on everyone and everything is sick.

I've seen games of Bloodbowl where you could general (coach) your way to victory without much contact and you'd do that with some armies so you wouldn't have to roll and thus fail those rolls. But that game had an alternative victory: score touchdowns. In WHFB you need to kill stuff. So pillars of fire landing on you or losing half your protection is a really big deal. I.e., there's only so much you can do with skill when you are required to be in someone's face fighting it out if you want any chance of winning.

I like the general idea, but it seems like it can be abused.
Lets say your playing a mixed god list, and I'm running my lizardmen (I run 5 characters in my list).

Seeing how the table works, turn 1 I combat reform all 5 units with characters. All 5 units just took Ld tests using the characters leadership. Turn 2 and one, you're taking instability on all your khorne units.
Likewise, It's easy for an opponent to generate a lot of nurgle tokens, which is very easy for a skink cloud to abuse.

I like the token idea, but the process of generation and the bonuses should be more balanced.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
But you know what makes up for it? The fact that you get to drop stone throwers on your opponent's entire army, you get to spawn units. People seem so focused on the bad things they forget the good. And you'd really be surprised at how little RoC affects the game.

I would not be surprised. Usually, the Reign does a whole lot of nothing. And stone throwers on my opponents army? Eh. Yeah. And some of yours.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Seeing how the table works, turn 1 I combat reform all 5 units with characters. All 5 units just took Ld tests using the characters leadership. Turn 2 and one, you're taking instability on all your khorne units.
Likewise, It's easy for an opponent to generate a lot of nurgle tokens, which is very easy for a skink cloud to abuse.

I like the token idea, but the process of generation and the bonuses should be more balanced.

I never considered that angle. Well said.

The ROC isn't too bad. I run Tz+Khorne even a horde of letters at 3k. The 8 result is likely the worse. I've lost a few cannon that way. I can tend to leave my general and bsb of the same god and close for the turn 1 at least. But I've shifted to putting it on the letters, keeping the loc in combat, and putting the gleaming pendant on my crushers.

I've had it do much more damage to my opponents than me.

TanKoL wrote:
I have one issue about RoC and it's not balance
My issue is that 90% of the time, 5-10 minutes are wasted every turn, rolling dice that have no real effect

This, definitely this. Personally, I think the RoC needs to take less time, and be more simpler.

Personally, I'd have the following D6 chart, rolled on at the end of the friendly turn.

1 - Universally bad for Daemons (-1 Ward Save?)
2 - Khorne Result
3 - Nurgle Result
4 - Tzeentch Result
5 - Slaanesh Result
6- Universally good for Daemons (+1 Ward Save?)

Ok, so let me explain the individual Gods results. I like the OP's idea of imagining whether or not the Chaos Gods are watching and whether they are or not affects what happens. So, I'd have a criterion that needs be filled for each God, as following:

Khorne - Win one or more combats
Nurgle - Not sure on this one
Tzeentch - Cast two or more spells successfully
Slaanesh - Again not sure.

So, if the criterion has been fulfilled, each unit with the corresponding mark gain a benefit (perhaps +1 to their Ward Save again). If not, they suffer a debuff. Effects lasting until the next time the chart is rolled upon.

Although admittedly not simple, it's fairly random and kinda fluffy (using the OP's idea) and doesn't take up ages in the magic phase.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
As a competitive demons player. RoC has never ruined my day. And my turns take less time to resolve than my dark, high, and wood elves.

I...am not even sure what you're trying to argue about here. Okay, yes. We get it. You're a competitive daemon player. And RoC has never ruined your day. But you must admit, that the possibility exists for it to ruin people's days. That is a fact. Losing your lvl4 Wizard in the first turn as he turns into a Herald of Tzeentch? Could happen.
Skillful playing can mitigate some poor luck. But there are some games where the dice come up snake eyes and box cars at all the wrong times, and you loose, no matter how competitive you or your list might be.

And your turns take less time? Good for you. Another fact: there are potentially more steps to a Daemon player's turn than other armies, due to the Reign of Chaos.

To date, I've had my Lord of Change die on turn 1 due to my magic phase being double 1'd twice, I've had my ward saves drop by 1 and my plaguebearers die to a unit of flaming knights more times than I can count. But you know what makes up for it? The fact that you get to drop stone throwers on your opponent's entire army, you get to spawn units. People seem so focused on the bad things they forget the good. And you'd really be surprised at how little RoC affects the game. Maybe it's just me and the fact that I play around decent-really skilled players, but we've mostly memorised our books round here.

In all of my games playing DoC in the last 12+ months, I've inflicted unsaved wounds on an opponent in three different games, only on one occassion was it more than 1 wound in a single game. The only time I did significant damage was from the Angry Slanesh result. I've never successfully inflicted an unsaved wound with the Angry Khorne effect; the scatter is just too great for those rare occasssions when you actually get the "6" to affect a unit (about one in 18 units will get the "6" followed by a "hit"). Seriously, the likelihood of actually getting those rolls is so slight as to be more annoying than anything, especially considering that after turn 2, most units are in close combat and unaffected by the Angry God rolls anymore.

The most significant rolls are the ward save modifiers; those can either wreck or save your bacon.

Nothing infuriates me more against my friend than Reign of Chaos. Even unfairly, it generates a lot of pissy moments when playing against demons. Losing Wizards, (dem dice) having to deal with free units of pink horrors or blood letters, or fighting a 4+ ward really sucks.

That said, I like the chart, but Nurgle is kind of heavy broken. Causing failed fear tests are rare. I can count on two hands the number of times in 5 years I've caused people to fail fear tests with Tomb Kings or Warriors of Chaos units. Unlike all the other conditions, it too heavily favors the demon player. when comparing it to the rest of your chart.