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Polonius wrote:Discussions on the price difference is a little tricky, given the sheer smaller scale of warmachine. Sure, you can build one decent 1500 40k army for $200, I think the PP fans would point out that nearly any tournament force can be built for ~$250.

I think that 40k hits diminishing returns later in the spending curve, however. I've spent thousands of dollars on 40k, and I still feel like I'm expanding my options and having fun when I buy a new army (I'm building eldar, and It's a ton of fun).

Yup. Minimum tournament-sized spend is comparable. And it is definitely true that you can spend a lot more on 40k than other armies. A lot of this is due to the genius of the 40k FOC. For example, a SM army wants 3 Land Raiders, 3 Predators, 3 Vindicators, 3 Whirlwinds, and 3 full Devastator squads to max out the Heavy support options. That's a lot of spend.

WM doesn't work that way, because a lot of their stuff is unique. And having lots of Jacks is unplayable due to the limited amount of action points that are generated.

Eldar, in particular, is an army that you can spend a awful lot on. With so many distinct units, even trying to have one of each type adds up quickly. If you want to double down, it's even more spendy.

For 5th Edition, I'd like to see a push to get back to 1500 points precisely because it opens the board up for more movement and reduces players ability to concentrate capabilities, forcing more thought on list design.

So GW ability to make you spend more money is an asset to the players?

BTW 500 to 750 points is the standard for WM.

syr8766 wrote:1. Killer combos: The way turn/unit activation works and the emphasis on harmony between units, caster, solos and warjacks/beasts gives it a (perceived) CCG feel: "I put 3 focus on this warjack. Unit X creates cover, Unit Y shoots up target, Solo 1 Charges from the left, knocking target over. Move caster up, cast spell. Warjack with 3 focus walks up and finishes target off."
2. Special rules: everything has a special rule, and the trick is to use the special rules in the right order, on the right opponent (as opposed to no one has special rules, and you're just trying to shoot/bludgeon the enemy, which is more typical of most tabletop miniatures games).
3. Synchronization/harmony (see above): building an army has the feel of building the 'right' deck.

See, this doesn't really seem like valid reasons for decrying WM as a CCG-style game. Maybe in the hardcore tourney scene you're totally focused on metagame <shudders>, but I don't believe most people play like that. Besides, even if these are the reasons for calling WM a CCG, it's not bad. You've got to have a much more concrete plan going into WM than 40k. If you don't know how your units interact and can affect a certain situation, you're going to get you butt handed to you every time. It's called tactics (or maybe strategy, can't remember), and WM has it in spades over 40k.

To me there's really no comparison between playing WM vs. 40k. WM is much more engaging and interesting. You've got to figure out what you want to accomplish each turn, what order to use your units in to accomplish your goal, and tip the odds in your favor with the 2d6 system. If you miss one thing or roll a snake eyes, it can royally screw up your plans. But while there is usually less redundancy in WM armies, most of the time you're never out of the fight completely. You just have to think about it, something you rarely have to do in 40k.

I guess if you just want to push some plastic around and roll buckets of dice, then by all means, 40k is for you.

Buckets of Dice!

It's always fun.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

I guess if you just want to push some plastic around and roll buckets of dice, then by all means, 40k is for you.

Don't forget making little 'pew pew' sounds when you shoot.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I demonstrated earlier, you can construct a legal (and fairly decent) 1500-pt SM force from 3 Battalion Boxes - or a little over $200 USD if bought from the Warstore. If you're playing standard 1000 pts of WM/H on budget, you'll probably spend the same $200 USD for your stuff, but just have a lot fewer models.

Battleforces are the best way to build up a solid army in 40k, no doubt about that. Spaze Marienz HURR aside, I'm not sure what kind of decent army you can make out of 60 Space Marines (15 tac/battleforce, 5 command/battleforce) and 3 Razorbacks (and or rhinos) though... A more solid example might be Necrons (1 Lord + 2 battleforces + Necron Phalanx Apoc Box = 1 world of hurt on a budget)

I think the discussion is getting off track though. WM players seem to be drawn to the game for rules and tactical reasons. 40k players drawn to the modelling, army and fluff aspects of their hobby. There are no wrong answers.

I was a big WM fan before Prime came out through Escalation. I thought it was a lot of fun.

Then everyone realized you were better off using hordes of infantry.

It's not a bad game for very small skirmishes. Hell, the HeroClix mechanics lend well to that type of game. It's when you're fielding 60+ models, which I easily did with Cryx and Menoth, that the game broke down to a ton of rolling. The mechanics don't work for how the game is played these days, especially at 750, and take forever and a day to just roll dice.

Also, PP used to have pretty good quality control. Nowadays they're letting those ridiculously 2 dimensional Pirates be sold and tons of other really crappy figures.

I'm also not a huge fan because to play the game I need to have intimate detail about my opponent's army so I know exactly what combos he can do and how. The game requires the level of twinking that only hardened D&D powergamers can bring. I'd rather play and learn from my tactical mistakes instead of getting my ass kicked by some twink with an unpainted army because I didn't know every detail of how his army worked.

It's laughable that people talk about 40k being won or lost in the army building, it's not, but are willing to forgive the silly combo nature of WM's one turn caster kills.

WM is also just as expensive as 40k. Competitive Menoth or Cryx armies can cost quite a bit and if you're playing at 750 points, the level most people I know played at before I quit, then the price really is on par with 40k. Short of taking 3+ heavy warjacks, which sucks, the game is going to cost as much as 40k.

I don't want to argue about balance, even though some things in WM are really too good, but there are a lot of mechanics that are simply Not Fun To Play Against (TM).

Sorscha, regardless of balance, sucks to play against. It's not fun to have your entire army static for a whole turn. Kreoss isn't much better. Goodluck fighting Bane Knights. Hell, I ran Zealots and a Monolith Bearer and I know that couldn't have been much fun to play against as those freaks would crash into an army with hellish fire bombs of unstoppable 84 points kickassery.

Sure, 40k has some annoying things. Falcons and Harlies are annoying and Nidzilla is stupid but the game is much more mission based and you can more easily get around those things.

For now, PP isn't getting my money and I sold almost all of my armies. Hopefully they'll clean the game up once WM2 comes out and they'll make 'jacks good again and make it so models like those Kommandos won't ever see the light of day. If that happens I might play again.

Until then, I'll be happy playing 40k and historicals.

I like 40k, both for the fluff and the system.

I consider the fluff to be self-explanatory, looking at PP's offering vs. GW's enormous stable of rulebooks, novels, codexes, RPG etc. and its no context.

In terms of game play 40k has rules and each unit has exceptions. In WM/Hordes each model is entirely unique, creating a far more difficult to balance game,, and while I think they've been better than GW at it I don't think they've been better enough to overcome their systemic disadvantage.

Maybe if I really dove into WM/H I could get a handle on every unit/model and figure out the combinations, but as a superficial player I can't quite grok it.

CaseyVa wrote:
I'm also not a huge fan because to play the game I need to have intimate detail about my opponent's army so I know exactly what combos he can do and how. The game requires the level of twinking that only hardened D&D powergamers can bring. I'd rather play and learn from my tactical mistakes instead of getting my ass kicked by some twink with an unpainted army because I didn't know every detail of how his army worked.

I don't have every army memorized and I get by pretty well. But that has more to do with every WM army having a chance to win, which is not something 40k can boast.

Its a good thing no one who plays 40k plays with unpainted models or twinks their lists.

It's laughable that people talk about 40k being won or lost in the army building, it's not, but are willing to forgive the silly combo nature of WM's one turn caster kills.

I have been playing WM since it came out and I have never seen a one turn caster kill. I have read several posts from people on here complain about it, but no one ever bothers to explain how this happens. Seriously I want to know.

keezus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I demonstrated earlier, you can construct a legal (and fairly decent) 1500-pt SM force from 3 Battalion Boxes - or a little over $200 USD if bought from the Warstore. If you're playing standard 1000 pts of WM/H on budget, you'll probably spend the same $200 USD for your stuff, but just have a lot fewer models.

Battleforces are the best way to build up a solid army in 40k, no doubt about that. Spaze Marienz HURR aside, I'm not sure what kind of decent army you can make out of 60 Space Marines (15 tac/battleforce, 5 command/battleforce) and 3 Razorbacks (and or rhinos) though...

You forgot that you get 5 scout/battleforce and 5 assault/battleforce, so there are a bunch more warm bodies in the force.

3 boxes gives:
45 tacticals
3 rhinos
15 scouts
15 assault

That's not terrible at all. Decent mobility and very solid numbers.

All you would need after this is a Devastator Box for the extra Heavy weapons to share around.

Crimson Devil wrote:I have been playing WM since it came out and I have never seen a one turn caster kill. I have read several posts from people on here complain about it, but no one ever bothers to explain how this happens. Seriously I want to know.

I've done this in a game. 350 pts and both sides moved to the center. My opponent's Feat kind of fizzled and whiffed. On my turn, I was able to really leverage Dennie's Feat with 2 Slayers loaded with Focus... squish! pulp!

If you were playing on a 4' board (assuming a 10" deployment zone) that means he advanced his warcaster 19"+ in his first turn (without running). That's one hell of a moron/rubber ruler you were playing.

I'm missing something right?

Indeed, namely that "one-turn kill" is not synonymous with "first turn kill".

JohnHwangDD wrote:Indeed, namely that "one-turn kill" is not synonymous with "first turn kill".

Silly me, I was a sleep at the wheel. I was thinking FIRST turn caster kill when I wrote that.

ONE turn caster kills happen all the time.

That's what I understood you to have written too, 'one turn' caster kills are indeed ten a penny. I've had a couple of turn one victories in 40k, I've never seen one in Warmachine.

Deadshane1 wrote:Its a simple question, why do you prefer one over the other?

Truthfully, I like them both.

40 k because you never get over your first crush, and for Warmachine- a game with five models can be as fun as a game with 100.