DOOMBREED and the lack of fluff

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**MasterDRD**

Now that I think about it... Would a KHORNATE daemon prince really think in subtle enough terms to hide himself away? I think he would instead go on a nightmarish killing frenzy, slaughtering millions before ascending to the warp. And I have yet to see any evidence of a massive daemon rampaging across the globe. *insert obligatory self-aggrandising penis joke*

**IronfrontAlex**

MasterDRD wrote:Now that I think about it... Would a KHORNATE daemon prince really think in subtle enough terms to hide himself away? I think he would instead go on a nightmarish killing frenzy, slaughtering millions before ascending to the warp. And I have yet to see any evidence of a massive daemon rampaging across the globe. *insert obligatory self-aggrandising penis joke*

when reading about deamons and fluff try to avoid any defninitions of the gods that are recent, they are all these totally evil beings like dick dasterdly nowadays.

there always used to be other sides to them
like Khorne was not only the god of violence, blood and war but also honor and stuff.

get what i mean? not always a mindless killing machine. berzerkers? they were lobotomized pre heresey

**MasterDRD**

Yeah, but we're also going by the Doombreed fluff from the same edition as Mindless-Rage-Khorne-SKULLSBLOODKILLDEATH, so my interpretation is perfectly valid.

**IronfrontAlex**

MasterDRD wrote:Yeah, but we're also going by the Doombreed fluff from the same edition as Mindless-Rage-Khorne-SKULLSBLOODKILLDEATH, so my interpretation is perfectly valid.

doombreed stuff has been around longer than 5th edition bud.

**MasterDRD**

Hence the word "also".

**IronfrontAlex**

ok, still two sides to him

**Morgrim**

I can't spell it, but Nyrrikinethkhan or something similar. Aztec warlord. Fairly sure fighting a lot, taking captives, ceremonially ripping out their still beating hearts and letting their blood flow down the steps of the temple while their cleaned skulls are placed in a great racks probably gets a lot of point with Khorne. Especially when they had a strong system of honour behind them as well.

**IronfrontAlex**

that could be him too, hey lets be hoenst it could be SEVERAL people. he lived that long and probably under many guises.

**Howard A Treesong**

Didn't Doombreed have rules in 2nd edition, one of the daemon princes at the back of Codex Chaos?

**IronfrontAlex**

2nd edition codex in hand: NO

the IC's of that codex are:
cypher
abby
kharn
fabius
arhiman
doomRIDER (DP that does cocaine and rides a deamon bike)

**Devastator**

i havent found the fluff that says that to be ascend to deamon prince you must be alive
at least in IA7 there is khorne deamon prince who i think is khan and he is accended after hes death so yeah

**Howard A Treesong**

IronfrontAlex wrote:2nd edition codex in hand: NO

the IC's of that codex are:
cypher
abby
kharn
fabius
arhiman
doomRIDER (DP that does cocaine and rides a deamon bike)

That sounds more like 3rd edition, as the Doomrider didn't appear until then. 2nd edition had most of the main characters you mention, cypher was buried at the back with hardly a mention. He, like Huron Blackheart, was given history and stats even though figures didn't appear until 3rd or 4th editions. Aside from the main army lists were lists for Daemon armies which *had* to be led by a named prince with unique stats, 4 examples were given, one of which I *thinkI was named Doombreed.

Edited to add, Lexicanum comes to the rescue, Doombreed is in it along with three others that have popped up occasionally in the fluff.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex:_Chaos_%282nd_Edition%29

**Cannerus_The_Unbearable**

Posted this forever ago for what it's worth:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243503.page#765323

**MasterDRD**

Damn, I wrote a long-ass response to that and then before I clicked Submit, I noticed it was from last summer. I don't know if I should necro it or not, so for now I'll just respond here- AAAND nevermind, I'm an idiot. I quoted the statline post and put my response after the quote, wrote another sentence and then, forgetting I was still in the original thread, posted it. Well, whatever. It's no less valid/relevant than it was 8 months ago, and it's a good enough idea that I think it deserves necroing. I didn't want to risk annoying the mods but it's too late to go back now.

**Gogsnik**

IronfrontAlex wrote:2nd edition codex in hand: NO

I think you'll find that the 2nd Edition Codex did contain Doombreed (pg 139) as well as N'Kari, Foulspawn and M'Kachan.

**IronfrontAlex**

Gogsnik wrote:
IronfrontAlex wrote:2nd edition codex in hand: NO

I think you'll find that the 2nd Edition Codex did contain Doombreed (pg 139) as well as N'Kari, Foulspawn and M'Kachan.

rules for or fluff for?

and are you sure you got the 2nd edition codex or the olllld books

**Gogsnik**

Codex: Chaos, Second Edition Codex by Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson published in 1996 ISBN 1-872372-47-3. Yep, I'm pretty sure, quite sure indeed that it's the 2nd Ed. Codex.

If by olllld books you mean Realm of Chaos Slaves to Darkness and Realm of Chaos The Lost and the Damned then Doombreed didn't appear in either book.

Doomrider appeared in the first Third Edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines in 1999 and was gone by the time the second Third Editon Codex: Chaos Space Marines arrived in 2002 so if you have the Codex with Doomrider in then you have the first 3rd Ed. 'dex and not the 2nd Ed. 'dex.

To answer your other question, the 2nd Ed. Codex which introduced Doombreed and the other daemon princes had background and rules for all four.

**IronfrontAlex**

ooo ok my bad, so uhm what were his stats? are we allowed to talk about unplayable char's stats?

**Howard A Treesong**

IronfrontAlex wrote:ooo ok my bad, so uhm what were his stats? are we allowed to talk about unplayable char's stats?

The four Daemon charaters were based on the stats of the greater daemon for each one. So Doombreed was like a bloodthirster only bigger and about a hundred points more expensive. Bearing in mind a bloodthirster already had WS 10 and S 10 and A 10 or something daft it just made him slightly more massive. All the daemon princes had special abilities as well as new stats, I don't recall many details other than those of the nurgle daemon prince who had 18 wounds (yes 18) and could regenerate them by killing people and dissolving them. Also he had a tongue that was a bit like tyranid flesh hooks in that it could hit characters at a distance and pull in them into hand to hand. I remember this because I was a nurgle fan more than the other chaos gods.

The strange thing was that you were supposed to use these four examples as inspiration to make up your own, as daemon princes are all supposed to be unique. But how you come up with new stats and abilities and then apply a points value to the character without upsetting the balance of the game is beyond me, it would be pretty difficult to work out even for a friendly game. I miss the really imaginative days of 40K when you were encouraged to make up wacky stuff instead of sticking slavishly to the codex, it's much more angled towards competitive gaming now IMO.

**Carlovonsexron**

Timur the Lame has the perfect record of Skullz & bloodyness to everyone around him for a good candidate for Doombreed- and if not him, then perhaps Hulegu Khan...

**IronfrontAlex**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
IronfrontAlex wrote:ooo ok my bad, so uhm what were his stats? are we allowed to talk about unplayable char's stats?

The four Daemon charaters were based on the stats of the greater daemon for each one. So Doombreed was like a bloodthirster only bigger and about a hundred points more expensive. Bearing in mind a bloodthirster already had WS 10 and S 10 and A 10 or something daft it just made him slightly more massive. All the daemon princes had special abilities as well as new stats, I don't recall many details other than those of the nurgle daemon prince who had 18 wounds (yes 18) and could regenerate them by killing people and dissolving them. Also he had a tongue that was a bit like tyranid flesh hooks in that it could hit characters at a distance and pull in them into hand to hand. I remember this because I was a nurgle fan more than the other chaos gods.

The strange thing was that you were supposed to use these four examples as inspiration to make up your own, as daemon princes are all supposed to be unique. But how you come up with new stats and abilities and then apply a points value to the character without upsetting the balance of the game is beyond me, it would be pretty difficult to work out even for a friendly game. I miss the really imaginative days of 40K when you were encouraged to make up wacky stuff instead of sticking slavishly to the codex, it's much more angled towards competitive gaming now IMO.

E18 should be stock on all DP's

**Gogsnik**

IronfrontAlex wrote:are we allowed to talk about unplayable char's stats?

Absolutely not, such a topic is completely forbidden.

Anyway, what do you mean 'unplayable'? No character is unplayable just because there are no rules for it in the current system, so for Doombreed just make a conversion, call it Doombreed and use Daemon Prince stats, simple.

SPECIAL

Daemon Prince: Doombreed is a Daemon Prince. All of the special rules that apply to daemons apply to him also.

Hates Slaanesh: Doombreed hates Slaaneshi daemons, and creatures that bear the Mark of Slaanesh. He will not serve in an army that includes such creatures except under the most extreme of circumstances (for example, when he and N'kari fought for Horus during the Horus Heresy).

Axe of Khorne: In his right hand Doombreed carries a mighty Axe of Khorne, suffused with chaotic energy and laden with death. A hit from an Axe of Khorne causes not 1 wound on its victim but D3 wounds (roll a D6: 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3). In addition, the axe adds +1 to Doombreed's Strength in hand-to-hand combat.

Rod of Khorne: In his left hand Doombreed carries the Rod of Khorne, a huge staff made of twisted bone that bear the Mark of Khorne at its head. Khorne hates all users of magic or psychic power, and his Rod is a deathly bane to all such practitioners of the sorcerous arts. Any creature with psychic powers that is in bast-to-base contact with Dooombreed at the start of the psychic phase loses D3 wounds. No save, of any type, is allowedagainst this damage. In addition, Doombreed may use the Rod in hand-to-hand combat, where it counts as an addition hand weapon, and strikes using Doombreed's own Strength and save modifier (ie normally S8, -5 save).

Chaos Armour: Doombreed wears brazen armour which bears the Mark of Khorne. This armour is a living part of the Daemon Prince, and it is sustained by its own unquenchable inner energies. It gives Doombreed a saving throw of 2+ taken on 2D6 in the same way as Termiantor armour, but which, unlike a standard daemonic aura, is affected by normal saving throw modifiers. However, the Chaos Armour is not negated by force weapons of psychic attacks, which gives Doombreed an advantage against psychic force weapons compared with other daemons.

Collar of Khorne: The Collar of Khorne that hangs around Doombreed's neck is said to be forged from the heat of Khorne's rage at the very foot of the Blood God's throne of brass. The power of the collar is to such the energy of the warp from around it, fortifying the wearer and also protecting it from psychic attack. As a result, no force weapon can harm the wearer and psychic attacks that effect the wearer are nullified and will not work.

Praise of Khorne: Doombreed may retake any failed armour save. Note that this reward will not work on any type of save other than armour saves.

Terror: Doombreed exudes sheer horror, his very existence is a threat to the sanity of the most strong willed of mortals. The psychology rules for terror apply as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Remember that creatures which cause terror automatically cause fear as well.

Fly: Doombreed has wings and is able to fly over the battlefield in great leaps and bounds in exactly the same way as a model equipped with a jump pack, as described on page 71 of the Warhammer 40,000 Wargear book.

To make a playable Doombreed you could use rules from Codex: Chaos Daemons or maybe use An'ggrath the Unbound as a 'counts as' perhaps.

**Platuan4th**

Gogsnik wrote:

SPECIAL

Daemon Prince: Doombreed is a Daemon Prince. All of the special rules that apply to daemons apply to him also.

Hates Slaanesh: Doombreed hates Slaaneshi daemons, and creatures that bear the Mark of Slaanesh. He will not serve in an army that includes such creatures except under the most extreme of circumstances (for example, when he and N'kari fought for Horus during the Horus Heresy).

Axe of Khorne: In his right hand Doombreed carries a mighty Axe of Khorne, suffused with chaotic energy and laden with death. A hit from an Axe of Khorne causes not 1 wound on its victim but D3 wounds (roll a D6: 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3). In addition, the axe adds +1 to Doombreed's Strength in hand-to-hand combat.

Rod of Khorne: In his left hand Doombreed carries the Rod of Khorne, a huge staff made of twisted bone that bear the Mark of Khorne at its head. Khorne hates all users of magic or psychic power, and his Rod is a deathly bane to all such practitioners of the sorcerous arts. Any creature with psychic powers that is in bast-to-base contact with Dooombreed at the start of the psychic phase loses D3 wounds. No save, of any type, is allowedagainst this damage. In addition, Doombreed may use the Rod in hand-to-hand combat, where it counts as an addition hand weapon, and strikes using Doombreed's own Strength and save modifier (ie normally S8, -5 save).

Chaos Armour: Doombreed wears brazen armour which bears the Mark of Khorne. This armour is a living part of the Daemon Prince, and it is sustained by its own unquenchable inner energies. It gives Doombreed a saving throw of 2+ taken on 2D6 in the same way as Termiantor armour, but which, unlike a standard daemonic aura, is affected by normal saving throw modifiers. However, the Chaos Armour is not negated by force weapons of psychic attacks, which gives Doombreed an advantage against psychic force weapons compared with other daemons.

Collar of Khorne: The Collar of Khorne that hangs around Doombreed's neck is said to be forged from the heat of Khorne's rage at the very foot of the Blood God's throne of brass. The power of the collar is to such the energy of the warp from around it, fortifying the wearer and also protecting it from psychic attack. As a result, no force weapon can harm the wearer and psychic attacks that effect the wearer are nullified and will not work.

Praise of Khorne: Doombreed may retake any failed armour save. Note that this reward will not work on any type of save other than armour saves.

Terror: Doombreed exudes sheer horror, his very existence is a threat to the sanity of the most strong willed of mortals. The psychology rules for terror apply as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Remember that creatures which cause terror automatically cause fear as well.

Fly: Doombreed has wings and is able to fly over the battlefield in great leaps and bounds in exactly the same way as a model equipped with a jump pack, as described on page 71 of the Warhammer 40,000 Wargear book.

To make a playable Doombreed you could use rules from Codex: Chaos Daemons or maybe use An'ggrath the Unbound as a 'counts as' perhaps.

Something I'd never noticed before about his rules. Nice little back up redundancy there.

**IronfrontAlex**

Uhhh just use these stats, update rules a bit and make him his own apoc datasheet

Platuan4th wrote:
Gogsnik wrote:

SPECIAL

Daemon Prince: Doombreed is a Daemon Prince. All of the special rules that apply to daemons apply to him also.

Hates Slaanesh: Doombreed hates Slaaneshi daemons, and creatures that bear the Mark of Slaanesh. He will not serve in an army that includes such creatures except under the most extreme of circumstances (for example, when he and N'kari fought for Horus during the Horus Heresy).

Axe of Khorne: In his right hand Doombreed carries a mighty Axe of Khorne, suffused with chaotic energy and laden with death. A hit from an Axe of Khorne causes not 1 wound on its victim but D3 wounds (roll a D6: 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 2, 5-6 = 3). In addition, the axe adds +1 to Doombreed's Strength in hand-to-hand combat.

Rod of Khorne: In his left hand Doombreed carries the Rod of Khorne, a huge staff made of twisted bone that bear the Mark of Khorne at its head. Khorne hates all users of magic or psychic power, and his Rod is a deathly bane to all such practitioners of the sorcerous arts. Any creature with psychic powers that is in bast-to-base contact with Dooombreed at the start of the psychic phase loses D3 wounds. No save, of any type, is allowedagainst this damage. In addition, Doombreed may use the Rod in hand-to-hand combat, where it counts as an addition hand weapon, and strikes using Doombreed's own Strength and save modifier (ie normally S8, -5 save).

Chaos Armour: Doombreed wears brazen armour which bears the Mark of Khorne. This armour is a living part of the Daemon Prince, and it is sustained by its own unquenchable inner energies. It gives Doombreed a saving throw of 2+ taken on 2D6 in the same way as Termiantor armour, but which, unlike a standard daemonic aura, is affected by normal saving throw modifiers. However, the Chaos Armour is not negated by force weapons of psychic attacks, which gives Doombreed an advantage against psychic force weapons compared with other daemons.

Collar of Khorne: The Collar of Khorne that hangs around Doombreed's neck is said to be forged from the heat of Khorne's rage at the very foot of the Blood God's throne of brass. The power of the collar is to such the energy of the warp from around it, fortifying the wearer and also protecting it from psychic attack. As a result, no force weapon can harm the wearer and psychic attacks that effect the wearer are nullified and will not work.

Praise of Khorne: Doombreed may retake any failed armour save. Note that this reward will not work on any type of save other than armour saves.

Terror: Doombreed exudes sheer horror, his very existence is a threat to the sanity of the most strong willed of mortals. The psychology rules for terror apply as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Remember that creatures which cause terror automatically cause fear as well.

Fly: Doombreed has wings and is able to fly over the battlefield in great leaps and bounds in exactly the same way as a model equipped with a jump pack, as described on page 71 of the Warhammer 40,000 Wargear book.

To make a playable Doombreed you could use rules from Codex: Chaos Daemons or maybe use An'ggrath the Unbound as a 'counts as' perhaps.

Something I'd never noticed before about his rules. Nice little back up redundancy there.

**Gogsnik**

IronfrontAlex wrote:Uhhh just use these stats, update rules a bit and make him his own apoc datasheet

And if your opponent says no? Certainly you can update the rules so long as your opponent agrees but using exsiting rules negates that problem.

**MasterDRD**

But then you're not really using Doombreed; you're using Proxy An'ggrath. I agree that updating his old statline/abilities, and possibly adding Inspire Bloodshed. That ability is too sweet not to use.

**Gogsnik**

Characters are not defined by the rules they use but by the models and background. Hell, the Space Marine Codex is designed around that very idea.

If you convert a model of Doombreed and provide legal rules to use him then that's Doombreed.

**MasterDRD**

Sure, but by that logic I could use a guardsman's stats. No worse; a CONSCRIPT. Where is your God now, followers of Khorne? WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!!!

Seriously though, would old Zogwort be nearly as fun to play without his "turn anyone into a squig, even a Star God" rule? Or Epidemius with his tally bonuses? Or how about CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED with Tactical Genius?
Characters are mainly defined by background and model, yes, but their stats and rules also play an important role. And it will always be more fun to use a character with their own unique rules than to proxy another character's rules just to be 'legal'. In that same vein, I played a game this Friday where it was me with 5 Monoliths vs my opponent with 10 Leman Russ Demolishers, no phaseout, everything in reserve. It was a bloody mess, had no defined wincon other than the very unlikely 'kill everything in 5 turns' default, and we didn't even get to finish, but it was still one of the most fun games I've ever played. (bonus points: I only own 1 actual monolith, and the other guy only had 3 real Demolishers.

)

**IronfrontAlex**

true blue!