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OK -- if we all agree that it's crappy parenting to leave young kids in the store alone -- there are 3 approaches that we, the customers, can take to kids in the store:

1) Welcome them, game with them, teach them about the hobby, make it see to them that the hobby is all about inclusivity and community. This approach is absolutely fine.

2) Be neutral towards them. Just say, if approached, "Look, son, I'm happy with you gaming here, but I prefer to play against other adults -- no offense." This approach is fine, too -- you shouldn't be expected to engage with other people's kids, or be an unpaid childminder, if you don't want to.

3) Be verbally or otherwise hostile towards them. "I wish they wouldn't let kids in here, ruining my gaming experience" etc. I don't think this approach is acceptable.

Assuming that these kids have crappy parents, and so are already at something of a disadvantage in life... which of the above 3 approaches is likely to help out those kids, and society at large? Which approach, on the other hand, is likely to further alienate them from society?

It's not your duty to deal with the problem of other people's bad parenting. But it is kinda your duty not to exacerbate the problem by simple bad manners.

Tim the Biovore wrote:Well, you're all talking really young kids, below the recommended age. Parents put their kids in the store because the child will make their time shopping hell. How would you like to walk around with a crying child while trying to have a good time? I get frickin' pissed when a baby cries for more than ten seconds on a train or bus.

So they pass the baton to us, so their kids can make our time shopping hell instead?

Someone commented on assertiveness when dealing with the youngsters earlier. I would totally agree. I used to become annoyed and rather than simply acting as an adult and talking to them in a mature manner, I would (in the past) probably say something to the staff. Now (especially knowing that I'm four months from being a parent myself) I go with the "I'm an adult, if I convey that...." and it has worked wonderfully. (sides the store mgt has hooked me up with discounts as me and my friends gladly help people when he is busy)

Isn't baseless discrimination fun?

Except it's not baseless.

Like I point out in the "who do you refuse to play against" thread, it's certainly true that not all kids are annoying to play against. However a majority are and it's the rarity of the exceptions that help to prove the rule. I see by your profile that you started gaming in 2007, which makes me assume that you are a very young person as well. Don't take it personal. If you are not one of the majority of whiny, annoying, loud, ADHD suffering kiddies that make being in the same room with most kid gamers such an unpleasant experience that the CIA is thinking of using it in place of water boarding, then good on you. But you have to understand that while you might be an exception, most of your peers live down to the stereotype. That's why I refuse to play children.

As to the broader point of parents using GW stores (and yes it's not just GW retail outlets, FLGSs get their fair share of this too) for child care I blame both folks with poor/irresponsible parenting skills and GW's deliberate policy of targeting the kiddie market. Anyone else recall the "Kids, Kids, Kids!" memo from the '90s that outlined the company policy shift toward marketing to kids? The line from that memo that stands out in my mind was something along the lines of "if they are old enough to be trusted not to swollow the models they are old enough to play".

TR

Ian Sturrock wrote:OK -- if we all agree that it's crappy parenting to leave young kids in the store alone -- there are 3 approaches that we, the customers, can take to kids in the store:

1) Welcome them, game with them, teach them about the hobby, make it see to them that the hobby is all about inclusivity and community. This approach is absolutely fine.

2) Be neutral towards them. Just say, if approached, "Look, son, I'm happy with you gaming here, but I prefer to play against other adults -- no offense." This approach is fine, too -- you shouldn't be expected to engage with other people's kids, or be an unpaid childminder, if you don't want to.

3) Be verbally or otherwise hostile towards them. "I wish they wouldn't let kids in here, ruining my gaming experience" etc. I don't think this approach is acceptable.

Assuming that these kids have crappy parents, and so are already at something of a disadvantage in life... which of the above 3 approaches is likely to help out those kids, and society at large? Which approach, on the other hand, is likely to further alienate them from society?

It's not your duty to deal with the problem of other people's bad parenting. But it is kinda your duty not to exacerbate the problem by simple bad manners.

Get that nonsense out of here!

I want those kids robbing me in 10 years!

i dont mind kids about 11 and up,but kids that are 6 years old that walk around gw and beg there mom for every tbattleforce and tank in the storemakes me want to hit my head repeatedly with a rulebook.especially if there mom buys it for them.

Defiler wrote:Get that nonsense out of here!

I want those kids robbing me in 10 years!

Yeah, I hope they give me an extra kick or two in the face for being an obvious geeky gamer type, like all those guys who were mean to them at the game store.

They are okay i guess. Except when they block the door by sitting near it "sigh". I do wish they wouldnt stay there all day, its a hobby for home aswell.

Justicar Alaric wrote:Why is it there are always some parents who see GW stores as free places to drop their kids while they shop.

More to the point why should the more mature gamers have to put up with stores filled with kids, if I wanted to have an argument with an 8 year old over the fact that the table they are using is reserved for tournament use I'd stop at home and fight with my own kids.

Personally I now avoid weekend gaming as it's too much like hard work trying to get everything sorted with these kids running round touching that ain't theirs.

Please tell me I'm not the only one out there who wants an over 18's area reserved or just a ban on unaccompanied kids.

I LOL'ed this post.

Personally? NO.

I like seeing the MILF action that comes into the stores every now and them. Personal entertainment, and sometimes a little dinner action for such little effort.
Muh ha ha ha!!!!

Seriously though,
I want those rugrats coming to the store. As for the craptastic behavior, thats entirely on you and your gaming group that frequents the store to establish, enforce, and uphold for your area.
In a local GW store, It was bad enough for you to get in the door, put up with the incessant BS sales pitches, the angles, and the yaktiy yack don't come back mentality that the upstart GW redshirts breeds to let your gaming groups go to seed just because of a little inconvenience like a customer.

YOU have as much if not more responsibility to mold, help out, and sell those people that just show up walk in for a few minutes and give you at least 1-10 minutes to make that decision if little johnny is going to even get into this game, make a sale, or even give you the rest of the time to sell me into why I should pay from 20-100 bucks on a bunch of plastic miniatures, overpriced gaming supplies, or overpriced paint.
Thereby keeping your local shop in buisness for one more week so that YOU in turn have a place to come back to and continue to play at.

Think of it another way-

Cultivating your investment.

It is much better to help the new player along then it is to put up with TFG breeding, playing with halfwits that don't take the time to learn, and play like they don't have a pair, while all the time trying to keep up with the Joneses, (I/E YOU and YOUR established group) while they play the roill of the outsider and use YOU and your local shop to point at as the ones NOT to be.
I find it a much better environment when the place is orderly, the players HELP the shop, instead of the asstastic cutting and self destructive behavior or outright sabatage of a sale by giving the little youngster such a hard time that they THEN go over to mommy and daddy and end up deep sixing the shop.

You have a responsiblity to your shop to help them out, teach new people, and give direction if you see something going on that is going to in the long run end up losing your group its asset of a local shop.
I don't particulerly care in this case if it is either a GW shop, or a LGS, these shops run on commerce. Period.
If you don't continue the time honored art of teaching noobs, you are going to end up finding your shop with fewer and fewer people, until the point where you either close down the store, or those people that you scorned so well go some other place and end up playing, modeling, and collecting while you end up crashing and burning.

You don't have to like them, but you do have to either help them, or shut up about and to them while someone else does your fair share of the work.

Two parties are to blame.

1. The parents. For being bad parents. I have a sister and brother-in-law who would routinely disappear at family get-togethers and let the rest of the family watch their young triplets. That's not fair to the rest of the family. As a result, if I'm not watching my kids, I ask a niece/aunt/etc. if they mind, even if my kids are playing with 3-4 other kids. Being a responsible parent means you are...responsible. You know what your kid is up to.

2. The store. For not setting clear boundaries. It's fine to have a "kid's event", but the store needs to make it clear what obligation (or lack of) the store has to watch the kids. Are kids under 12, 16, 18 not to be left without a guardian? And, when the parents show up, the store needs to communicate what is acceptable. Frankly, the store is taking on liability by having minors unaccompanied by an adult at the store. What if one of the kids falls and splits open their forehead on a rack? Now, in a true emergency, the EMTs will take the kid to the hospital. But, unless it's a true emergency (life or death type), the hospital won't do anything without parental consent - because of liability. I don't know (and it probably depends on jurisdiction) if the hospital would even put in stitches without consent, or just try the 'pressure and bandage' method to stop bleeding.

Personally, I don't want my kid getting taken away by the next Ted Bundy, so I know where they are. And will continue to do so, probably to their social detriment. And, I don't think it's reasonable to avail someone of free babysitting.

dietrich wrote:Two parties are to blame.

1. The parents. For being bad parents. I have a sister and brother-in-law who would routinely disappear at family get-togethers and let the rest of the family watch their young triplets. That's not fair to the rest of the family. As a result, if I'm not watching my kids, I ask a niece/aunt/etc. if they mind, even if my kids are playing with 3-4 other kids. Being a responsible parent means you are...responsible. You know what your kid is up to.

2. The store. For not setting clear boundaries. It's fine to have a "kid's event", but the store needs to make it clear what obligation (or lack of) the store has to watch the kids. Are kids under 12, 16, 18 not to be left without a guardian? And, when the parents show up, the store needs to communicate what is acceptable. Frankly, the store is taking on liability by having minors unaccompanied by an adult at the store. What if one of the kids falls and splits open their forehead on a rack? Now, in a true emergency, the EMTs will take the kid to the hospital. But, unless it's a true emergency (life or death type), the hospital won't do anything without parental consent - because of liability. I don't know (and it probably depends on jurisdiction) if the hospital would even put in stitches without consent, or just try the 'pressure and bandage' method to stop bleeding.

Personally, I don't want my kid getting taken away by the next Ted Bundy, so I know where they are. And will continue to do so, probably to their social detriment. And, I don't think it's reasonable to avail someone of free babysitting.

I think that this is a real good point, too.

DarkHound wrote: You can imagine trying to play against someone who randomly shakes uncontrollably. It makes measuring difficult, but he's damned good at rolling.

I'm going to go to Hell for laughing at that ...

On topic, I saw both sides of the argument last Saturday whan I popped in to a GW to pick up Battle Missions. The place was wall-to-wall with (unattended) kids, all participating in a boisterous 'Nids v Marines mission to launch the book. All the kids were noisy, excited and involved and it was great to watch.

At the same time, there was a disgruntled-looking mother being told quite firmly by the guy behind the till 'We do NOT offer a childcare facility here'.

Bring kids to play? Fine.

Bring kids to park? Nope.

And, I'd add to all the customers of FLGS that are thinking of leaving due to it becoming a free daycare - talk to the manager and/or owner. Losing business is a negative. Now, they may simply tell you that the grubby 12-year olds spend more than you, and they have to make that trade. But, if they realize that they're losing customers because of it, they may rethink their free daycare policy.

Mhm.

I'm 23, and I've made an effort to emit an aura of menace around myself to the youngins in the shop (theres alot...probably around 6)

You just have to perfect the eyes, I was born with terribly un-colored eyes, they're black-ish grey, and really flakk around with your head when you look me in the eyes, kind of like those people who wear the colored contacts.

Kids can't stand looking at my eyes, and when they don't, I tell them to look at my eyes. Even the ones who are around 13 don't usually converse with me because of this. Theres only probably 6-7 other guys my age or older, who tell me that kids ask them about me and how "weird" I am.

Maybe I'm stroking my elitist ego a bit, but I love talking about it.

For those who don't have my blessing, a simple menacing glance will do the job. If at first they don't look like a total douche, talk to them a bit, they might just be really cool.

Karon wrote:Kids can't stand looking at my eyes, and when they don't, I tell them to look at my eyes.

Well, yes, asking kids to look in your eyes will get them to stay away from you. At least if they've been taught to avoid talking to creepy strangers and accepting rides in their cars...

In my view it is up to the staff of the store to make sure these kids aren't a nuisance. As an ex-staff member I know that it can sometimes feel like a day care centre. But all you need to do is have a set of activities set up already. We had painting, modelling, and gaming lessons set up for weekends. They would just accomodate whoever came through the door, with space set aside for them. The rest of the space would be set up as a first come first served basis - unless there was a tournament or a table had been booked.

Now obviously parents can't expect GW to act as a daycare centre, but if the kids are interested, and not a nuisance, then why should they be turned away? Nuisance kids should be told not to misbehave, and when their parents return, then they must be told to either supervise their child, or not bother coming. Harsh? Or just plain sense?

That's all I can think of for the moment . . .

Oshova

malfred wrote:

For some reason, I hear more about these "clubs" from you Brits than I see/hear about
locally. In Chicago, the people I see gaming are at the shops or at someone's place
who's able to give up the space for the night.

I don't generally hear about clubs and such. Specifically, I don't hear about people
gaming in a public/reserved space that lets them store their terrain.

They're around. But their harder to find and rarer then the UK variants, as the UK doesnt have nearly the FLGS we do. But private clubs are around. I'm part of one in northern NJ, HQ the Club, near the NY border. Long story short, we got tried of stores crap and founded our own, and rent private space month to month- going on 5 years now?

As a kid, I always hated going on errands with my mother, and would have loved the opportunity to spend my time in a game store instead of what always happened: having my butt glued to the leather seat of an early 80's volvo minivan squished between my younger siblings.

As long as the kid does not act up, I'd have no problem with a youngster haunting the store.

My own club feels like a creche at times (although there are more of them approaching 18 (if not over it )now so it's not as bad as it was.

I'm fortunate that I have another club that I go to where the majority of people I play with are uni students.

I mainly dislike playing against under 18s because of the age gap between us (I'm over 40) and to minimise any suspicious thoughts of their parents (although I have done my working with children background checks and passed them all).

I don't go into my local GW much because it isn't large enough to swing a cat - that's when it isn't full of munchkins during the school breaks.

Years ago when I was about ooooooo 11-12 and starting out mum would leave me in the Games Workshop broad weir when she would go to the pound stretcher store down the road.

in those days Games Workshop was for adults and you REALLY wouldnt get a sniff out of anyone!.This was in the late eighties early nineties

It wasnt until I started to go to the Cribbs Causeway store when I was 18 that I started to chat and get reckonised.


Plus who leaves their kids with strangers???? I often wonder this..............

Is their childs safety really worth putting on the line for a couple hours peace and quiet or are kids really a bunch of whiney nowadays.

If people really wanna leave their kids around me.

Their loss I guess, but don't blame me if they start moshing around.

Shadowbrand wrote:If people really wanna leave their kids around me.

Their loss I guess, but don't blame me if they start moshing around.

Yea I guess.............

*edges away slowly*

Anybody who's in a GW store (or any business) may be asked to leave.

The parents that you describe are presuming upon the compassion of the people in the store. This should not be permitted, in my view.

Accordingly, I think the way you treat this situation is: Anybody in the store who causes a nuisance, and won't stfu when asked politely and then instructed sternly, is asked to leave, be he seven or seventy. No age discrimination, just discrimination on the basis that actually makes sense: being an ass, or not being one.

Malleus wrote:
The parents that you describe are presuming upon the compassion of the people in the store. This should not be permitted, in my view.

They also work on the assumption that the employees of retail stores are allowed to watch them at all. They're not, since the employee saying yes would mean that the store is responsible for the child.

As I said earlier, most stores have the policy that if a parent can't be found for a child in a store(or vice versa) security(or the police) is notified. If that parent is truly is not in the store or within a reasonable vicinity, the police will get involved. It's considered abandonment no matter the reason if you willfully leave your child somewhere and leave for somewhere else without a legal guardian(teacher, nanny, etc. NOT employees) to watch the child.

Want to teach these parents not to do it? Tell Security and have them page the parent over the mall wide intercom. I guarantee after a couple times of being embarrassed by that, they'll reconsider it.

The problem with trying to make kids go away by treating them like crap is that it usually doesn't work for one simple reason: they get that all day from the crappy parents who left them there in the first place.

When I plan to spend a day painting, I often go to my local GW. I don't do this on the weekend because it's a zoo full of the type of animals being complained about by the OP. More importantly I leave by 3 or 4:00 because that's when the worse offenders show up: the loudmouth douchbags that these spoiled kids turned into.

Pika_power wrote:Well on the topic, my FLGS gets the kids to ring their parents and get them picked up. One mother took away their phones, so the FLGS owner rang security on the basis that he had abandoned children in his store. They weren't seen again.

That reminds me of this story from The Acts of Gord website...

Defiler wrote:And so forth, I think enough posts have been made by people illustrating how an arbitrary age limit won't do anything to eliminate dissonance within a gaming shop.

I think a limit on weight, perhaps personal or based on your collection would eliminate far more than an age based restriction.

So the fat guys get all the juice huh? Let`s see about that

Demonslayer82 wrote:Years ago when I was about ooooooo 11-12 and starting out mum would leave me in the Games Workshop broad weir when she would go to the pound stretcher store down the road.

Games Workshop croydon?
On a separate note, I'm 13 (I definitely don't need looking after) and I do generally dislike playing alot of those in and around my age range. There's a particular group of people slightly younger than me who also have a trend of cheating. It works on someone who doesn't know the codexes, but when someone tries it out on me, it irritates me (though I do get a modicum of satisfaction ). Also, there a few people older than me there who are even more irritating than the younger ones. They've been banned by previous store workers, but have came back. They are quite aggresive, and always blame the dice when they lose. Heck, when one of them lost to me on turn 2 he told me he'd leave a ring imprint on my forehead.

I have no problem with other kids being left there as long as they're generally nice people. My local manager however, asked for those just wondering around the store to leave, unless they acually did something. With the ring imprinter at their forefront they left to attempt to scale a 1.5m wall, claiming they were doing 'parkour'.

The crowd at bromley seem to be more maturer, so I might try that out a bit more.

EDIT- Vets nights are always cool. I live fairly close to my local GW, so I can stay there quite late as long as my parents know where I am. Less children there, and there is a smell of fluff in the air

In my case there should be no leaving naive parents alone rules. My mom picked up a wet carnifex while a guy was away for a few minutes at the bathroom and left a huge fingerprint that ruined a days worth of work. Luckily the GW employees were nice enough to let me stay inside while my mom had to wait in the car. (i can't drive yet)

Seriously though,
I want those rugrats coming to the store. As for the craptastic behavior, thats entirely on you and your gaming group that frequents the store to establish, enforce, and uphold for your area.
In a local GW store, It was bad enough for you to get in the door, put up with the incessant BS sales pitches, the angles, and the yaktiy yack don't come back mentality that the upstart GW redshirts breeds to let your gaming groups go to seed just because of a little inconvenience like a customer.

YOU have as much if not more responsibility to mold, help out, and sell those people that just show up walk in for a few minutes and give you at least 1-10 minutes to make that decision if little johnny is going to even get into this game, make a sale, or even give you the rest of the time to sell me into why I should pay from 20-100 bucks on a bunch of plastic miniatures, overpriced gaming supplies, or overpriced paint.
Thereby keeping your local shop in buisness for one more week so that YOU in turn have a place to come back to and continue to play at.

Think of it another way-

Cultivating your investment.

It is much better to help the new player along then it is to put up with TFG breeding, playing with halfwits that don't take the time to learn, and play like they don't have a pair, while all the time trying to keep up with the Joneses, (I/E YOU and YOUR established group) while they play the roill of the outsider and use YOU and your local shop to point at as the ones NOT to be.
I find it a much better environment when the place is orderly, the players HELP the shop, instead of the asstastic cutting and self destructive behavior or outright sabatage of a sale by giving the little youngster such a hard time that they THEN go over to mommy and daddy and end up deep sixing the shop.

You have a responsiblity to your shop to help them out, teach new people, and give direction if you see something going on that is going to in the long run end up losing your group its asset of a local shop.
I don't particulerly care in this case if it is either a GW shop, or a LGS, these shops run on commerce. Period.
If you don't continue the time honored art of teaching noobs, you are going to end up finding your shop with fewer and fewer people, until the point where you either close down the store, or those people that you scorned so well go some other place and end up playing, modeling, and collecting while you end up crashing and burning.

You don't have to like them, but you do have to either help them, or shut up about and to them while someone else does your fair share of the work.

I fully agree.
I started part-timing at my local store ( in addition to my teaching job ). Especially on weekends we get swamped by kids,
mostly aged 8-13years old, left by their parents so they can do their shopping or enjoy a peaceful coffee.
Lucky us, that we have 3 separate gaming rooms(2large-8tables and 1small-4tables), so there's space for everybody.
If our venerables don't want to interact with kids, they don't have to + I try to keep the noobs in the main room, so I
can control them if they act up and generally moderate their games.

Of course we inform the parents, that they we are not responsible for their kids, should anything happen, but they mostly
leave them there anyhow. Is it ok?........I don't know... from a parenting perspective i think it is a bit irresponsible.

On the other hand, we get the opportunity to teach them all about gaming and our hobby in general. So that's good.