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Fateweaver wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:

It's easy to rant against GW because they are the biggest but if any of you honestly believe that if PP or Mantic or the makers of Malifaux were as big as GW and NOT do what GW does, for better or worst, you are delusional and need to step away from the keyboard and take your meds.

And if they became as successful as GW and didn't become a PLC? Because 'as successful as GW' is still not a megacorp and given GW's recent financial reports, pay freezes, store reductions, price hikes and staff cuts, not so fething successful atm eh?

Seriously, I revoke my previous statement to you about you just posting in OT, take your drivel back to OT and keep it there... 'burning Jewish babies' indeed, total bloody flamebaiting.

The way people act over having to pay $2 more for a tactical squad this year vs last year makes me think that is what is going through their heads.

I thought you had me on iggy MGS or did you take me off just to insult me some more. My posts are no more mindless drivel than yours are. You might have a higher post count but that doesn't mean your posts are any more meaningful than mine.

I thought it was a pretty lame and stupid and failed attempt at a humorous jab at GW. There, I said it. MGS can continue flaming me and attacking me.

But you seem to be missing the point - it's got very little to do with the $2 or whatever rise it is this year and everything to do with the $2 or $3 dollar rise every year (or every 6 months as it seems to be). I don't think anyone has ever argued that GW is evil but as consumers, we have a right to be bloody well pissed off about their actions. Sure, it's not going to do anything to GW to lower prices or force a market change but it is about people voicing their dissatisfaction - and what more appropriate place to do so? It's not like GW listen to their customers...

You have a right to be pissed, yeah.

But in general, the reasons for being pissed are kind of shoddy. Annoyance at a price increase, sure, but the hyberbolic anti-GW vitriol is downright ubiquitous on Dakka.

A 50% price increase over 3 years isn't really that big of a deal. There are products where this would be worth freaking out about, but this is a luxury item, and as far as luxury items go, it's one of the less expensive ones overall. If it's breaking the bank then you shouldn't be buying them.

malfred wrote:GW Management does not have to enter this discussion at all.

The only question that really matters in this particular thread is do you like Mantic's minis?

If the answer is yes, then this press release is hilarious.

If the answer is no, then this press release is also hilarious.

It's win/win.

(I happen to like their skinny elf models and want to see more)

Yeah, I liked the skinny elves but they weren't in proportion to the GW ones, that said, the undead are more suitably proportioned.

Aha! Cry many of you, but they don't need to conform to no steenkin GW 'standard'..

Well, ultimately it would be nice if we could all move over to their game rules and their rules were amazing and armylists and rulebooks were updated online etc etc. But for the moment, the Warhammer rules and minis are the ubiquitous standard, if the mini line was sizewise in keeping with those, then we could subtly introduce the mantic game rules as well. For Example, Timmy visits Jack, Timmy has built his vampire counts army using Mantic minis and Jack owns an old Orc and Goblin army...

Timmy: Oh, I thought after today's game of warhammer, we could try a quick game using a few units and mantics rules, just to see how we like it?

Jack: Sure, we can give it an hour after the main game and see how we like it, since you've travelled here, the table's set up and we've got the time.

See, that's how we can gain the 'foot in the door' for Mantic's ruleset and eventually it's entire ranges, new blood flowing along the GW established veins...

Yeah, they listen to shareholders because for every customer that leaves 10 more take his/her place and that makes shareholders happy.

PP and Mantic MIGHT seem to care more about the customer but that's because they aren't publicly owned with people helping to keep GW afloat (after all, buying shares in a company helps it to maintain it's value). So long as the shareholders are happy and GW is turning a profit it doesn't matter what customers think.

I agree that the Mantic Revenants are nice minis. The elves aren't BAD per se but I think the GW HE's and WE's look better (not all the minis in that range but the HE bowman look better than Mantics IMO) so if I was planning to collect an elf army of sorts I'd STILL buy GW over Mantic, even at the higher price because looks are SOMEWHAT important to me. It's one reason I'm willing to pay 4 times as much for a FW BT as I am GW's BT.

You might not find GW minis worth the price rises but some do and so long as people exist that think GW minis are worth the price then GW will stay in business. I personally can't stand to look at ANY of the WM Cavalry models from PP and they are a lot more expensive per model than say Cold One Knights or Chaos Knights or HE Silver Helms.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

malfred wrote:GW Management does not have to enter this discussion at all.

The only question that really matters in this particular thread is do you like Mantic's minis?

If the answer is yes, then this press release is hilarious.

If the answer is no, then this press release is also hilarious.

It's win/win.

(I happen to like their skinny elf models and want to see more)

Yeah, I liked the skinny elves but they weren't in proportion to the GW ones, that said, the undead are more suitably proportioned.

Aha! Cry many of you, but they don't need to conform to no steenkin GW 'standard'..

Well, ultimately it would be nice if we could all move over to their game rules and their rules were amazing and armylists and rulebooks were updated online etc etc. But for the moment, the Warhammer rules and minis are the ubiquitous standard, if the mini line was sizewise in keeping with those, then we could subtly introduce the mantic game rules as well. For Example, Timmy visits Jack, Timmy has built his vampire counts army using Mantic minis and Jack owns an old Orc and Goblin army...

Timmy: Oh, I thought after today's game of warhammer, we could try a quick game using a few units and mantics rules, just to see how we like it?

Jack: Sure, we can give it an hour after the main game and see how we like it, since you've travelled here, the table's set up and we've got the time.

See, that's how we can gain the 'foot in the door' for Mantic's ruleset and eventually it's entire ranges, new blood flowing along the GW established veins...

Uh, what Mantic rules? They don't have rules of their own. The rely entirely on other companies' games to sell minis, aside from pure hobbyists of course.

Ostrakon wrote:

Uh, what Mantic rules? They don't have rules of their own. The rely entirely on other companies' games to sell minis, aside from pure hobbyists of course.

I actually think the typical gamer is served better when the people who make the rules and the people who make the miniatures are separate companies. That way the game designers have making a good game as their only concern, not writing rules to try to sell miniatures.

It's like the separation of church and state, but with less witch burnings.

Ostrakon wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

malfred wrote:GW Management does not have to enter this discussion at all.

The only question that really matters in this particular thread is do you like Mantic's minis?

If the answer is yes, then this press release is hilarious.

If the answer is no, then this press release is also hilarious.

It's win/win.

(I happen to like their skinny elf models and want to see more)

Yeah, I liked the skinny elves but they weren't in proportion to the GW ones, that said, the undead are more suitably proportioned.

Aha! Cry many of you, but they don't need to conform to no steenkin GW 'standard'..

Well, ultimately it would be nice if we could all move over to their game rules and their rules were amazing and armylists and rulebooks were updated online etc etc. But for the moment, the Warhammer rules and minis are the ubiquitous standard, if the mini line was sizewise in keeping with those, then we could subtly introduce the mantic game rules as well. For Example, Timmy visits Jack, Timmy has built his vampire counts army using Mantic minis and Jack owns an old Orc and Goblin army...

Timmy: Oh, I thought after today's game of warhammer, we could try a quick game using a few units and mantics rules, just to see how we like it?

Jack: Sure, we can give it an hour after the main game and see how we like it, since you've travelled here, the table's set up and we've got the time.

See, that's how we can gain the 'foot in the door' for Mantic's ruleset and eventually it's entire ranges, new blood flowing along the GW established veins...

Uh, what Mantic rules? They don't have rules of their own. The rely entirely on other companies' games to sell minis, aside from pure hobbyists of course.

They have 2 mini ranges started. They have stated on clips I've seen of them that they will be bringing a rules set out. Patience.

By then the DE will be out and so will the new plastic Daemons.

Plenty of plastic crack for me to paint. No need for a new system.

I'm thinking of going HE for Fantasy if I start it. Guess I'll be passing on the Mantic Elves.

I'll like Mantic when they start making Orcs and/or Lizardmen figures.

Fateweaver wrote:No need for a new system.

Tell that to GW. They seem to think its somehow necessary every few years and the time span gets shorter and shorter. How long has 7th ed been out now?

Hellfury wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:No need for a new system.

Tell that to GW. They seem to think its somehow necessary every few years and the time span gets shorter and shorter. How long has 7th ed been out now?

When they released 5th edition they claimed that they applied the rule "if it ain't broke don't fix it" to 4th edition, which is why they were so similar. As a result 5th Edition just tweaked a few things and it's the version I have and have stuck to. Yet they managed radical overhauls since, seemingly just to sell all the books again. Bah.

If and or when Mantic decide to release rule systems it will be interesting to see how they push their own products.

They should follow the route of locking down customers to their specific minis if a ruleset is released. They wont survive if they keep both aspects separate.

I would expect rule changes and updates to their mini lines as well.

Fateweaver wrote:
The way people act over having to pay $2 more for a tactical squad this year vs last year makes me think that is what is going through their heads.

The problem is that you'll pay 2$ more next year too, and the year after, and so on.

Hmm, well this is a silly idea. Those of you not in the UK may not be aware but financially the whole of the UK is up a certain creek without a certain implement. In short we just got a new government last week who are going to raise our taxes and raise VAT. VAT is a fun tax (it stands for Value Added Tax) we have over here on most goods and is charged at about 17.5% so that's 17.5% off the £ price and then you have the comparable US price. With GW's price hike they will just about make even, with Mantic's price freeze they are going to have to take that VAT hike out of profits.

From where I am sitting Mantic look like a small operation with a very limited line. Will they survive the austerity measures the UK are about to go through? I hope so but that's being charitable. I hope their stunt got them the advertising they needed because they are going to need it. On the actual product line the figures look very nice and suitable for home gaming. However I don't play High Elves or Undead so they are rather short on that front to me. Added that WHFB is rumoured to contain High Elves in the box and that's gonna hurt, but hopefully they can ride on the coat tails of 8th ed. for home brewers.

I don't get the whining about not allowed in GW's stores because last time I checked GW weren't a charity. Their stores are there to sell product, they have gaming nights to foster good customer relations in the hope that they will sell more product. The tables are there for them to teach people the game and encourage them to buy more stuff. As for the whole competitive play thing; I don't like it. I don't like beardy people tying me down to 'leafblower' this or 'mechanised' that. Anyway good luck to em. I'm gonna go paint some Skaven


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poipo32 wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:
The way people act over having to pay $2 more for a tactical squad this year vs last year makes me think that is what is going through their heads.

The problem is that you'll pay 2$ more next year too, and the year after, and so on.

That's called inflation, it's why when I was small it cost 10p to take a bus ride and now it's £2.00!

Bloodwin wrote:
That's called inflation,

That's a load of crap. Open your eyes and actually compare the rate of the price increases to the rates of inflation.

Yeah, you can draw a direct comparison between GWs prices and the U.S. health industry. 12% over inflation is gouging, I don't care what pretty label you put on it.

IMO Mantic seem to be shooting themselves in the foot a little. When (not if) they raise their prices people will immediately discredit them because of this video.

In the meantime I can only hope that this video sends a message to GW. If things stay on course GW will succeed in pricing nearly all of their customers out of the hobby.

Bloodwin wrote:Hmm, well this is a silly idea. Those of you not in the UK may not be aware but financially the whole of the UK is up a certain creek without a certain implement. In short we just got a new government last week who are going to raise our taxes and raise VAT. VAT is a fun tax (it stands for Value Added Tax) we have over here on most goods and is charged at about 17.5% so that's 17.5% off the £ price and then you have the comparable US price. With GW's price hike they will just about make even, with Mantic's price freeze they are going to have to take that VAT hike out of profits.

From where I am sitting Mantic look like a small operation with a very limited line. Will they survive the austerity measures the UK are about to go through? I hope so but that's being charitable. I hope their stunt got them the advertising they needed because they are going to need it. On the actual product line the figures look very nice and suitable for home gaming. However I don't play High Elves or Undead so they are rather short on that front to me. Added that WHFB is rumoured to contain High Elves in the box and that's gonna hurt, but hopefully they can ride on the coat tails of 8th ed. for home brewers.

I don't get the whining about not allowed in GW's stores because last time I checked GW weren't a charity. Their stores are there to sell product, they have gaming nights to foster good customer relations in the hope that they will sell more product. The tables are there for them to teach people the game and encourage them to buy more stuff. As for the whole competitive play thing; I don't like it. I don't like beardy people tying me down to 'leafblower' this or 'mechanised' that. Anyway good luck to em. I'm gonna go paint some Skaven

VAT does not affect businesses in the way that you think.

Anyway Mantic have not frozen prices they haven't done anything. They have announced 'nothing'.

Mr. Burning wrote:
VAT does not affect businesses in the way that you think.

Anyway Mantic have not frozen prices they haven't done anything. They have announced 'nothing'.

I agree with the VAT; I believe it's much like any tax in that it's added on top of the product price. So in fact, they can charge a higher price, due to the VAT, and still be telling the truth about not raising prices.

Your second statement is incorrect as they have stated: "Having reviewed our fantastic prices, we have decided that as of the 1st June, Mantic Games products will be exactly the same price as they are right now!! so, that means no price rises – not one."

So, basically, you are correct in that they announced 'nothing'; however, the specific 'nothing' in question is no rises in price.

frozenwastes wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:
That's called inflation,

That's a load of crap. Open your eyes and actually compare the rate of the price increases to the rates of inflation.

Have they consistently been raising prices by this margin EVERY year though? I've heard people complain about the past three years, but I haven't been playing that long and can't seem to find old price data.

What I have heard is "I remember when X was 25 bucks 8 years ago, now it's 50" which is actually pretty in line with the combination of increasing overhead for a larger company and inflation.

Ostrakon wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:
That's called inflation,

That's a load of crap. Open your eyes and actually compare the rate of the price increases to the rates of inflation.

Have they consistently been raising prices by this margin EVERY year though? I've heard people complain about the past three years, but I haven't been playing that long and can't seem to find old price data.

What I have heard is "I remember when X was 25 bucks 8 years ago, now it's 50" which is actually pretty in line with the combination of increasing overhead for a larger company and inflation.

This is a more reasonable statement. Because it adds "increasing overhead" to the price equation. And it shows GW's failure to be efficient. Tiny companies like Mantic, Wargames Factory, Warlord Games, Immortal, Gripping Beast and Victrix are releasing hard plastic 28mm miniatures for way, way under what GW charges.

GW *should* have the advantage of volume. But a look at their financials shows that even with the jacking up of prices, they're only profitable because of their non-miniature endeavors (licensing revenue tipped them from losing money into making money in their last reporting period). GW is failing at leveraging their size to be more efficient due to volume.

So companies like Mantic, WGF, Warlord, etc.,. can swoop in and charge way, way less. It's the basics of a functioning market economy, get inefficient and overpriced, and you create an opportunity for competition. And it blatantly demonstrates that GW's price increases are more than just inflation. If it really was a matter of cost of production going up, these other companies wouldn't be able to operate as they'd face the same factors.

GW has failed to leverage being a high volume producer of miniatures. They charge a lot and hardly turn a profit and have no choice but to try to pass on the cost of their inefficiency to their customers. They must be hoping that many will be good little obedient customers and spend the same amount of money and be happy with getting less for their money.


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As for how often the price increases happen, it's easier just to look at the compound average rate. If they raise their prices every few years, you can see that stuff has doubled over the last 7 years or so. The math shows that to be an average of about 10% a year during a time when inflation was 2-3% in most countries.

.

Yeah, GW definitely fails at capitalizing on their ubiquity. They waste so much money on rent for actual GW stores, I bet they'd cut a buttload of overhead if they simply relied on independent stores to sell their goods.

They have a crappy business model and they're too stubborn to change it because it's still profitable.

EDIT: This is the real reason why GW minis are so expensive compared to Mantic, Reaper, etc. GW has to charge a lot to remain profitable because their operating expenses literally account for like 85% of their gross sales. This isn't evil, it's just plain stupid.

It's hard for us to speak with any real knowledge since we don't have inside info and numbers. But yeah, I really don't get the strategy for the store chain in the U.S.

They can't realistically cover the country with them. But they aren't really destination stores either...the trend is that they're getting smaller, with less playing area and less product. They exist to spread the hobby, yet they're increasingly moving out of normal malls and to strip malls, etc. with vastly less foot traffic. And they've cut the staff back to a single employee in most cases, which would seem to hurt the stores' ability to develop customers.

Again, the strategy may be there and I'm just missing it. But it *feels* like they're being extraordinarily stubborn about the stores and are futilely trudging forward with growing the chain even though they don't have the budget to make it work they way they want it to. And as a result the anchor they're dragging just seems to get heavier and not lighter.

I'm more than willing to believe that GW's distribution system is what's weighing them down. I remember when they took distribution in house. It was then that the prices truly started to climb. It was then that small comic shops and toy stores stopped carrying their stuff because they couldn't just tack it onto an order with their regular distributor and they weren't willing to start big trade accounts with high minimums. It was shortly after that when they did their best to stifle US online discounters. Everything they possible could do to make the distribution of their product less efficient was done, so they could get a bigger piece of the pie.

And now they're choking on it. WFB 8th Ed and the slash and burn layoffs/store closures/one man stores that are coming to GW US better work or GW is going to have one bad reporting period coming up.

Mantic is not straight-jacketed by this announcement because they won't need to have a price increase in 2010. They don't have the inefficiencies that GW has taken a decade to pile up for itself.

Mr. Burning wrote:VAT does not affect businesses in the way that you think.

How? They sell a product at whatever markup, that product has VAT included in the price. If VAT goes up and the price remains the same then it has to come out of profits. Sure they may make the product for significantly less than what they charge but that cost still has to include VAT at whatever rate. Either in store or on the site. Im only talking about point of sale not all the other costs associated with the company.


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agnosto wrote:Yeah, you can draw a direct comparison between GWs prices and the U.S. health industry. 12% over inflation is gouging, I don't care what pretty label you put on it.

I didn't mention the health industry, that's a mega corporation that can spread its costs at a much larger scale than GW. Nobody's forcing you to buy the stuff. Anyone would think you guys were under some contractual obligation to buy GWs stuff. You aren't. In over 20 years of enjoying this hobby I've always seen price hikes, if its not figures it's the cost of White Dwarf. Given that the 40k boxed set is £50 I still think its good value.


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Ostrakon wrote:Yeah, GW definitely fails at capitalizing on their ubiquity. They waste so much money on rent for actual GW stores, I bet they'd cut a buttload of overhead if they simply relied on independent stores to sell their goods.

They have a crappy business model and they're too stubborn to change it because it's still profitable.

EDIT: This is the real reason why GW minis are so expensive compared to Mantic, Reaper, etc. GW has to charge a lot to remain profitable because their operating expenses literally account for like 85% of their gross sales. This isn't evil, it's just plain stupid.

I think the big difference with GW is that they work on a much bigger scale and therefore have to choose what they will make in bulk because it will need to be stored somewhere. One of the reasons you don't see a lot of GW in independent stores is because small shops cant afford to speculate on what will sell. Part of the reason Space marines are so ubiquitous is that they will always be the product that will sell. Smaller companies make smaller runs of figures and have to store less stuff so their overheads aren't so high.

@bloodwin

If VAT rises then I am sure Mantic will increase their trade pricing RRP to compensate.

GW will do the same as will all other concerns in the UK.

One of the reasons you don't see a lot of GW in independent stores is because small shops cant afford to speculate on what will sell. Part of the reason Space marines are so ubiquitous is that they will always be the product that will sell.

Actually it`s the high minimum order amount, the many mail order only products and the "sorry for being delivered late to you, but we had a storage hickup"-deliveries of new products that keep many stores from putting GW products on their shelves. Ad to this the past stunts of opening of GW stores right in front of shops that turned out to sell GW products more than well and the new one-man-stores they open up everywhere were one announces to open his LGS and you can understand why some stores are more than reluctant. Besides quite some LGS hate being a**-r**** three times in a row over the course of eight years.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Actually it`s the high minimum order amount, the many mail order only products and the "sorry for being delivered late to you, but we had a storage hickup"-deliveries of new products that keep many stores from putting GW products on their shelves. Ad to this the past stunts of opening of GW stores right in front of shops that turned out to sell GW products more than well and the new one-man-stores they open up everywhere were one announces to open his LGS and you can understand why some stores are more than reluctant. Besides quite some LGS hate being a**-r**** three times in a row over the course of eight years.

Yeah that's what I meant by the idead of it being hard to choose what to stock. While there is usually a rush for the current army of the month it can be hard to carry a broad range of figures so customers can't come in on a whim and start a new army. I don't know how saturated the USA is for GW stores but here in the UK pretty much every large town has a store of some sort. Not only does it depreciate FLGS in terms of GW product it also hurts because it lessens the chance for having a FLGS at all and that effects the rest of the hobby. A more extreme example is Wizards of the Coast and D&D. They are having an event to get people to play in their FLGS on a weekly basis but there isn't any store running this in the whole of London. Given that this is a capital city Id expect to see at least half a dozen shops selling RPGs but they just don't exist. Orc's Nest and Forbidden planet carry some stuff but it's very limited and they just dont bother with GW stuff. The Plaza store is very near to them by but it's a tiny shop which has a limited amount of stuff available. These days I jsut order from the site and get it sent to my local store (our postal service is rubbish), but the wait time means that I think quite hard about what I am prepared to order.