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Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk




Excuse my noobiness, but why must a vendetta snap fire after jinking?
   
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Made in us
The Conquerer






Island of Nunya, Nunya business!

Because of the Evade rule.

Flyers don't have Jink normally. They can choose to Evade, which gives them Jink, but at the expense of only Snap-firing next turn.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Space Wolf army.  
   
Made in us
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk




Ah ok, thanks a lot
   
Made in us
Sneaky Goblin Shaman




Oceanside, CA

If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






I think people would still complain, I know I would. Most of the times I've seen IG it's been in low point games where they were able to take cheap Vendettas and cheap Veterans and almost no tanks, if any.

Taking away some of IGs heavy hitters would do a bit to reduce how good it is, but only slightly. It's still way underpriced for how useful of a unit it is.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us







Probably work

HawaiiMatt wrote:
If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt


You say that, but the funny thing is that I have a harder time choosing my Fast Attack than I do my Heavies. I normally only have one or two heavies, FA is always full if it's a game I actually want to try to win. Hellhounds (well, a hellhound) for the win. I am like an artist with those things.

We're both the same except for you've got class and style 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Keep in mind that Long Fangs aren't even particularly good anymore. I don't even think they're the best Heavy Support choice in their own Codex in the 6th edition environment, much less the best Heavy Support choice in the game like they once were.

BAO 2013: Best Space Marine 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ailaros wrote:
Kevlar wrote:They are arguably the best Anti-vehicle unit in the game

Oh, come now, it's not even the best anti-vehicle unit in the codex. BB medusas will kill vehicles faster, and really anything with Ap1 or the melta rule is going to do the job better.

I mean, for only 105 points you get a pair of melta stormtroopers. Assuming they land within 6" of their target (which is the most likely outcome with airborne assault), they're going to blow up a chimera nearly 2/3ds of the time and a land raider 1/3rd of the time. The vendetta does that 1/3rd and 1/8th respectively.

No one uses lascannons to shoot AV 14 so that's unfair.

First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank. With an astropath they'll be on turn 2 on a 2+ and you'll almost definitely get the side you want. A vendetta will inflict 1.5 penetrating hits on average against AV11, and take 2 hullpoints off instantly from AV10. HWTs aren't 10% as durable as a vendetta, and they'll nearly always be shooting front armour.

You can get 3 of these at 1500 points easily and spend turns 2 and 3 destroying pretty much all of his medium/light armour.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/18 01:13:12


Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.


Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

BAO 2013: Best Space Marine 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kingsley wrote:
 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.


Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.

If you're going to correct someone on a rule, please look it up yourself beforehand so that I don't have to dig through *two* rulebooks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HawaiiMatt wrote:
If Vendettas where heavy support choices, I doubt people would bitch.
Vendettas are good, not because what they bring to the table, but the fact that it doesn't take away from your other heavy choices while they do it.
Anything that the pie plates don't kill, vendettas and veterans do.
Now if taking vendettas cost you pie plates, it would have a better balance over the whole army.

-Matt

There's truth to this. At 1500 points you can have 3 Vendettas, 3 Russes and 660 points of troops. That's just unfair

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/18 01:31:41


Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

 Testify wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.


Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.


The FAQ that basically states Scout does nothing.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

Note the two seperate questions with 1 answer given.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/18 01:41:24


   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Testify wrote:
 Kingsley wrote:
 Testify wrote:
First of all, Vendettas will *always* outflank.


Vendettas can't outflank, so I'm going to stop you right there.

Vendettas have Scout USR. This allows them to outflank.

If you're going to correct someone on a rule, please look it up yourself beforehand so that I don't have to dig through *two* rulebooks.


The new Imperial Guard FAQ removes this ability from the Vendetta.

BAO 2013: Best Space Marine 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





You could have pointed that out in your post...

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






Canada

 Kingsley wrote:
Keep in mind that Long Fangs aren't even particularly good anymore. I don't even think they're the best Heavy Support choice in their own Codex in the 6th edition environment, much less the best Heavy Support choice in the game like they once were.

Uhhhh... I wouldn't really say that. I think they're overstated, but Missile-fangs are still very good for their cost and the only units they have any sort of competition with are Vindicators and maaaaaaybe Predators.

Never doubt yourself. Only let it make you stronger... Unless you're the PDF. In which case, you'll be killed to a man.

Andilus Greatsword's Great Company - ~8000pts Hive Fleet Maliades - ~4500pts Raven Sword - ~3000pts Barloq's Temple City - ~4000pts 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
The FAQ that basically states Scout does nothing.

Q: What effect, if any, does the Scout special rule have on a Valkyrie or
Vendetta? Will this allow it to enter play in Turn 1 by redeploying 6"
onto the board? (p56)
A: It has no effect.

Note the two seperate questions with 1 answer given.


Except it still has the separate Outflank USR.

1) The FAQ clearly puts this in the context of dealing with a Scout redeployment, not other effects granted by having the Scout USR.

2) It's an FAQ, not errata. In 6th edition when GW removes a rule entirely (for example, removing lumbering behemoth) it's done through errata that says "remove the following lines/rules", not through FAQs. Conclusion: this is not a complete removal.

3) FAQs are not official, and you are free to ignore them if you disagree with them.

End result: Valkryies and Vendettas may outflank. End of discussion.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Peregrine wrote:


3) FAQs are not official, and you are free to ignore them if you disagree with them.

End result: Valkryies and Vendettas may outflank. End of discussion.

Omg, I see this way too much for it to be funny anymore. Good news everyone. FAQs, erratas, rules, and points that GW produces are no longer official. Free reign for everything.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





 Peregrine wrote:
[
Except it still has the separate Outflank USR.


Vendetta do not have the Outflank rule.

They have the Scout rule, which allows them to outflank as part of its effects.


Since the Scout rule has no effect upon Vendetta, they cannot use that rule to outflank.




As for FAQs not being official...if your group lets you get away with that, then that's fine. There's nothing that says you can't decide to play the rules however you want.

Most tournaments (and gaming groups that I'm aware of) take the FAQ as being official.
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Savageconvoy wrote:
Omg, I see this way too much for it to be funny anymore. Good news everyone. FAQs, erratas, rules, and points that GW produces are no longer official. Free reign for everything.


No, only FAQs are unofficial, according to GW's own rules. Errata = official changes, FAQs = unofficial "this is how we play it in our games, we hope it helps you". Most people tend to play by the FAQs, but that's because usually they're a sensible answer. In this case there is no reason to take the wording literally and do something that clearly wasn't intended when you can just take the relevant part (that you can't redeploy onto the table) and ignore any ambiguity about the rest.

Mindshred wrote:
Since the Scout rule has no effect upon Vendetta, they cannot use that rule to outflank.


See above. This is a ridiculous interpretation of the FAQ that goes against both the context of the FAQ and GW's policy for what they do when they ARE removing a rule entirely (that is, errata). The obvious intent was to only address redeploying onto the table, and trying to twist that into somehow removing the separate outflank aspect is nothing more than rules lawyering.

Most tournaments (and gaming groups that I'm aware of) take the FAQ as being official.


That's nice. GW doesn't take them as being official, and I care far more about GW's opinion on what their rules are than a third-party tournament organizer.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Peregrine wrote:


That's nice. GW doesn't take them as being official, and I care far more about GW's opinion on what their rules are than a third-party tournament organizer.


So you don't care about how GW plays their game, but you care about how GW plays their game? Way to contradict yourself.

But the FAQ states that Scout has no affect. It doesn't specify that its only referring to the movement. You're just speculating what their intent is, which is nice. But my interpretation is that scout has no affect. Stalemate,

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Savageconvoy wrote:
So you don't care about how GW plays their game, but you care about how GW plays their game? Way to contradict yourself.


No, I care about the published rules of the game. I don't feel obligated to follow FAQs that the authors of the game explicitly state are unofficial and only helpful suggestions which you may or may not wish to use.

But the FAQ states that Scout has no affect. It doesn't specify that its only referring to the movement. You're just speculating what their intent is, which is nice. But my interpretation is that scout has no affect. Stalemate,


Oh FFS. It is really not complicated.

FAQs are for resolving ambiguous situations (for example, "can my Vendetta use its scout move to redeploy onto the table?").

Errata are for changing the rules (for example, "remove the Scout USR from the Vendetta entry on page X").

The fact that this is an FAQ we're talking about says that a complete removal of the rule can not be the intent of it, whatever you can rules lawyer it into "saying".

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






Ok, just checked the FAQ page and the rule book and over their site. Where do they say that the FAQ section is unofficial? Where does it say I can ignore their rulings?

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok, just checked the FAQ page and the rule book and over their site. Where do they say that the FAQ section is unofficial? Where does it say I can ignore their rulings?


I just looked for it, and I guess this has changed with 6th. However it's still a ridiculous interpretation. FAQs may be official now, but rules lawyering can still be ignored.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






Ignoring what it says is rulelawyering, not listening what it says. It says scout has no effect therefore scout does not convey any abilities including Outflank. If they INTENDED to only mention the scout move then they would have/ could have/ should have answered twice instead of once.

Honestly I was hoping FAQs were unofficial so all my Tau drones could count as characters for challenges again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/18 05:57:33


I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ignoring what it says it rulelawyering, not listening what it says.


You're right. We shouldn't ignore what it says. We should listen to the fact that GW uses errata to remove rules, and FAQs to clarify ambiguous situations. Since this is an FAQ we're talking about it can not be a complete removal of the rule, therefore Valkyries and Vendettas may continue to outflank.

If you ignore GW's method of handling these situations then you are rules lawyering.

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in au
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



In your nightmares...

Vendettas are stupid good.

Compare a Stormchicken.

You replace the TLLC and TLMM with 3 (!) TLLCs, slightly lower transport capacity and then drop the points by 70. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous.

2000 points. Win:23 Draw:3 Lost:3

Back after hiatus. I'll see you around! 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





New Jersey

I love how in the official FAQ it states clearly that scout has no effect and Peregrine just chooses to blatantly ignore the part that he personally doesn't agree with.

If you choose to intentionally misinterpret the rules then you are a cheater. Calling someone a ruleslawyer for calling you out on your BS doesn't negate the fact that you are cheating.

   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I love how in the official FAQ it states clearly that scout has no effect and Peregrine just chooses to blatantly ignore the part that he personally doesn't agree with.


Why is this so hard to understand? The only way GW removes rules entirely is through errata. This is not errata, therefore it can not remove the rule entirely.

Since it can't be a complete removal, the obvious explanation is that you can't use the scout redeployment, the separate outflank USR remains, and "no benefit" is just a sloppy way of saying "you can't redeploy at all". It's ridiculous rules lawyering to try to turn that into "remove the Scout USR entirely".

Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre






They aren't removing the rule, just all the effects.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
Highlord of Terra






 Savageconvoy wrote:
They aren't removing the rule, just all the effects.


That is pointless nitpicking. If the intent was to remove all of the effects, instead of "all of the effects" as in "any method for redeploying onto the table turn 1 that you can think of", it would be issued as errata. The fact that it was not issued as errata is pretty solid proof that the intent was only to address the redeployment and not outflanking, and the "all effects" bit is just sloppy wording by an author who didn't anticipate this kind of rules lawyering and nitpicking over specific word choices.

TBH, this discussion is just going in circles and I'm done with it. You can rules lawyer against the obvious intent of the FAQ, and I'll just refuse to play against anyone who shares your disregard for common sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/18 07:13:28


Everything GW publishes for standard 40k, including codices, supplements, Forge World, and White Dwarf, is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule.

My DKoK painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Goblin Shaman




Oceanside, CA

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Honestly I was hoping FAQs were unofficial so all my Tau drones could count as characters for challenges again.

To be fair, Chaos Marines were also hoping all those drones count as characters too.

-Matt
   
 
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