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Made in us
Stubborn Hammerer





I understand that 9th is still almost 2 years away. But I have seen much talk, and also speculate either a Wood Elves vs. Bastmen box set. Or a Dwarfs vs. Orcs box. Maybe even Dwarfs vs. Wood Elves or Beastmen. But that is iffy as Dwarfs are rumoured to be out much before Wood Elves. I dont think it will be Skaven as they were just in Island of Blood.

Though I would like to see a Dwarfs vs. High Elves, both needto be redone, and this would be a good classic battle, though perhaps against the current lore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 00:55:44


 
   
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Made in us
Brigadier General





Texas

Mountain-Breaker wrote:

Though I would like to see a Dwarfs vs. High Elves, both needto be redone, and this would be a good classic battle, though perhaps against the current lore.


Doubt it will be HE, they're already in the 8th box


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Fantasy starter sets:
4th High Elves vs Orcs and goblins
5th Bretonians vs Lizardmen
6h Orcs vs Empire
7th Dwarves vs Goblins
8th High Elves vs Skaven

40k starter sets:
2nd Orks vs Space Marines
3rd Dark Eldar vs Space Marines
4th Tyranids vs Space Marines
5th Orks vs Space Marines
6th Chaos vs Space Marines

Now, judging from this we can draw three conclusions:

1. There is always one good army, and one bad army. So any elfs vs dwarfs, or Brettonia vs Wood Elves theories is probably void. The only exception is Brettonia vs Lizardmen in 5th
edition.

2. The same matchup is never used twice in fantasy.

3. The same race is not released twice in a starter set. (exception is SM, but this race has a special position in 40k selling more than all other races)

(4. We can presume there will be no undead.)

(5. matchups are not usually 'classic' empire vs chaos etc)

This leaves us with the possible matchups:

Empire, Brettonia, Wood Elves, Dwarves
vs
Chaos, Dark Elves, Daemons, Beasts, O&G.

Seing as how Bretonnia and Wood Elves relies on gimmicks such as buses and skirmish, I do not think they will be chosen. I think GW will go back to trying to make empire the "standard" template army for WFB, like SM is for 40k.

I think it will be Great Cannon, pistoliers, Swordsmen, Arquebusers, engineer and a general on horse.

Chaos has just been released, Daemons are too weird to put in a starter box. Beasts are rather obscure and too empirecentric. Dark Eldar has an unappealing aestethics to younglings considering starting the game if you ask me. They want broad appeal and a recognizable foe in the starter. Which makes me think O&G will win.

20 ors boys, 5 boar boys, 20 goblin archers, a shaman, a troll and an orc warboss. This will give close combat and magic advantage to the orcs, while the empire have shooting and the engineers tricks.

So this is deducted from previous releases; though Bretonnians have great starter set appeal with their massive knights and streaming banners (and hot sorcerer chick), so it could be them instead of empire...

I would like to hear counters to this matchup; Empire vs O&G, though.
   
Made in gb
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List





Leeds, UK

I think the thing to considering when looking at what's going to be in the new box probably isn't what's massively popular at the moment, because they're going to sell a bunch of those armies anyway, because people want to play them.

Instead, it's a chance to shine up some less popular armies (not necessarily the least popular, just stuff that isn't in everyone's face at the moment). If everyone loves an army, they're not going to sell a large force at a discount price, because instead they can just get you to buy all the boxes individually at their pumped up normal prices.

They're going to try and get some new armies out there, get people interested at the low intro price, and then hope that sparks people buying the full price stuff for those armies.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Magistrate





Prattville, AL

 triplegrim wrote:

3. The same race is not released twice in a starter set. (exception is SM, but this race has a special position in 40k selling more than all other races)


And again, this is patently false. High Elves have featured twice since 4th edition(4th and 8th) and O&G thrice(4th, 6th, and 7th).

Even in 40K, Orks have featured twice.

I really don't know where people got that idea from.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 14:46:28


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Made in us
Brigadier General





Texas

I think he means "in succession"

The closest is orcs and then goblins, but an orc army is functionally different from a goblin army

 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





Glasgow, United Kingdom

Triplegrim, you are simply pointing out what has happened in the past. We don't really have much reason to assume that the next box won't have good versus good, just because it hasn't happened before. There had never been Skaven in a boxed set until 8th, after all. All that we can do is say that they have done this in the past. Current objectives (sell Beastmen! or whatever) will always trump a consideration of what was done in the past.

My battle reports:
Infinity [Haqqislam]: vs Yu Jing, vs Yu Jing again.

Warhammer Fantasy [Tomb Kings]: Team event, vs Infantry Block Dwarves, Forgotten Heroes 2013, vs Wood Elves, vs (old) Daemons.

Warhammer 40,000 [Orks]: vs Blood Angels, vs Necrons/CSM, vs Guard Gunline, vs Necrons. Also featured in Holy~Heretic’s Deathwing report.

Right now I am doing a lot of painting. I keep blogs for this: Orks and High Elves
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Charles Rampant wrote:
Triplegrim, you are simply pointing out what has happened in the past. We don't really have much reason to assume that the next box won't have good versus good, just because it hasn't happened before. There had never been Skaven in a boxed set until 8th, after all. All that we can do is say that they have done this in the past. Current objectives (sell Beastmen! or whatever) will always trump a consideration of what was done in the past.


Well, I am deducing the system or logic behind previous releases to make a qualified guess at the future release. The publisher does not "consider what was done in the past" as you say, but they have to follow the same lines of decision making, which will make them land on similar releases.

We could instead use marketing logic, like some others in this thread have done; They need to appeal to newcomers to the game, fans of fantasy with certain expectations, and then the armies should be a good one versus a bad one, which is the whole topic of the fantasygenre and of WFB in particular.

Orcs are very common army released because they are an instantly recognizable army, who GW (for all their talk of IP) _stole_ from Tolkiens legendarium. To match it up are the more commonly recognizable armies, such as knights, magic elves and tolkienesque dwarves. The skaven last release was the only surprise so far, especially since they are one of the few armies "unique" to the warhammer universe. Now, however orcs, which are more marketable, will be released since it was not released last edition.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:

3. The same race is not released twice in a starter set. (exception is SM, but this race has a special position in 40k selling more than all other races)


And again, this is patently false. High Elves have featured twice since 4th edition(4th and 8th) and O&G thrice(4th, 6th, and 7th).

Even in 40K, Orks have featured twice.

I really don't know where people got that idea from.


As Kenshin says, I mean twice in a row. Orcs and goblins are dissimilar armies, and was released as such. Though it certainly points to the enourmous popularity to put the orcs into the starter set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kajata wrote:
I think the thing to considering when looking at what's going to be in the new box probably isn't what's massively popular at the moment, because they're going to sell a bunch of those armies anyway, because people want to play them.

Instead, it's a chance to shine up some less popular armies (not necessarily the least popular, just stuff that isn't in everyone's face at the moment). If everyone loves an army, they're not going to sell a large force at a discount price, because instead they can just get you to buy all the boxes individually at their pumped up normal prices.

They're going to try and get some new armies out there, get people interested at the low intro price, and then hope that sparks people buying the full price stuff for those armies.


But isnt there an element of the "introduction"-trick to the starter? That kids should be able to buy it, and play without using glue, and to get hooked on warhammer from it? Then it needs to be rather cool bad guys. Therefore I dont think Dark elves will ever be in a starter. And not undead or daemons either (as skulls and devils can drive parents away from the product). Half bakes Beastmen do look a bit offsetting as well, in my opinion, and the army is very obscure. If no one plays it already, why would kids start a game using them?

I am guessing there will be orcs and goblins, plus some wolfriders (to capitalize on the well known theme from the hobbit).

The good armies could be anyone actually, but i'm sticking to empire (with a slight chance for brettonians or wood elves) for good army. And O&G.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 16:45:45


 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




pontiac, michigan; usa

It usually seems to be a good faction vs an evil faction (or at least according to the alignment charts).

Orcs have way too much face-time in concerns of fantasy but i can understand why (mostly because people know orcs and understand they're bad).

I think beastmen would be a nice fresh look. I think it wouldn't take much to see that they're the bad guys.

Straight up daemons might freak out parents that have small children. Undead would just have a weird mechanic but overall i don't think they're too horrifying in most aspects to small children. The black coach, black knights/hexwraiths and the coven throne/mortis engine models might freak them out a little but it's much better than straight up daemons.

As for good guys i'd say either wood elves or bretonnia. Lizardmen would be interesting but i'd highly doubt seeing lizardmen and beastmen in a box-set would ever be a good idea for new players considering there's no sort of human appearance.

So actually i'd say wood elves or bretonnia but right now i'm leaning towards bretonnia just because they're very human and good with that whole king arthur and the holy grail feel going for them. You don't need more than a second to realize they're the good guys. Lizardmen with beastmen however would be a bit confusing.

I actually think having bretonnia in a starter set would help bring the army back into the spotlight esp. if a new army book is on the horizon for them. Sadly that might mean their army book is a ways off. Then again high elves were old and still are when the starter set featured them. In fact though skaven came in at the tail end of 8th they didn't see a release after the rulebook came out. 40k's 6th edition on the other hand has re-released both of their starter sets factions immediately after launch. Odd how that works. I wonder if fantasy will do that for 9th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 23:30:06


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Made in us
Brigadier General





Texas

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Straight up daemons might freak out parents that have small children. Undead would just have a weird mechanic but overall i don't think they're too horrifying in most aspects to small children. The black coach, black knights/hexwraiths and the coven throne/mortis engine models might freak them out a little but it's much better than straight up daemons.


Doesnt seem to bother the 40k crowd about "freakyness"

For crying out loud the sword of the chaos lord just screams "I will devour the souls of your loved ones!"
Spoiler:







 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





He is still not a walking zombie, a skeleton or a demon with half a boob hanging out -

Anyway, 40k is grimdark. There are no good guys factions.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Magistrate





Prattville, AL

 triplegrim wrote:
There are no good guys factions.



Sure there are! Jervis will swear on his life that Space Wolves are the good guys.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
I'm Alpharius and so can you!
Hallowed is the All Pie
DR:80S++G++M+B+I+Pwmhd03#+D+++A(WTF)/mWD230R+++T(S)DM+++ 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Space vikings? They're so good that they're baaaaaad, man
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




pontiac, michigan; usa

 kenshin620 wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Straight up daemons might freak out parents that have small children. Undead would just have a weird mechanic but overall i don't think they're too horrifying in most aspects to small children. The black coach, black knights/hexwraiths and the coven throne/mortis engine models might freak them out a little but it's much better than straight up daemons.


Doesnt seem to bother the 40k crowd about "freakyness"

For crying out loud the sword of the chaos lord just screams "I will devour the souls of your loved ones!"
Spoiler:








I still can't get over how cool the chaos marines in the new 6th edition 40k starter set are. I really like the chosen for some reason. Actually it's all good. As far as looky freaky i think that the daemonic dreadnought dude takes the cake but maybe that's just me. When i said children i meant more small children and i think somebody else mentioned it so i was just agreeing with it and adding to it. When you think about it though 12 year old boys love games with gore and murder to near extremes. I mean when i was younger mortal kombat was something kids loved (despite the mature rating) and the violence in that game was pretty over-the-top and graphic much like 40k is supposed to be in the lore. In fact on the topic of mortal kombat they showed a more recent one on the daily show (i barely catch up on games or on tv these days though honestly so keep that in mind) once in a video clip and 2 people ripped a dude in half (and i couldn't help but notice and laugh that at the end of the clip the ripped in half dead dude's head was basically between his own *ss).

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Made in nl
Existencial Exalted Sorcerer of Chaos






Nilfgaard, Dancing on the Barrows of my enemies.

 Platuan4th wrote:
 triplegrim wrote:
There are no good guys factions.



Sure there are! Jervis will swear on his life that Space Wolves are the good guys.


Wrong! Jervis is a Blood Angel fanboi!

"By order of the Emperor of Nilfgaard, for the murder of the wounded, looting, cannibalism, you are hereby sentenced to death by hanging."

Muh Plog: Iron Warriors, Warriors of Chaos, Vampire Counts, and sometimes more!


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Made in gb
Krazed Killa Kan




In the Warp, giving you -3 Ld

Meh.

There still 16 months to go until this is released, that's presuming GW stick to their normal routine of releasing a WHFB on July of a World Cup Year, they could do it later for all we know. Honestly, WHFB doesn't have any "commitments" to any particular army, it's not like 40k where you can guarantee there'll be at least one, if not two, marine armies in the box. It could be anything. Chaos vs Empire is a classic matchup that hasn't been done; Wood Elves vs Dwarves also has a bit of a history in the fluff and would be two very different armies and they're both also, hopefully, getting a rehaul soon (my money, if I had to bet any, would be on this); Orcs + Goblins vs something isn't unlikely since O+G are used a lot. Meh, to be honest, it's far too early to be speculating.

Interested in selling my Orcs and Goblins army, fully painted 2500pts+. PM me if interested!

7th Edition Tyranid Fan Codex

 
   
Made in us
2nd Lieutenant





Florida

I am kind of interested to see what the armies would be though I dont play fantasy. If the armies are anything like the DV sculpts in term of detail Ill be all over it.

I would love to see dwarfs in the starter though thats just because I like the dwarf models, or VC for the same reason. Empire vs WoC would be cool though too, but like I said before as long as they are cool sculpts I will be more then happy.

1200  
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith



Orlando, FL

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 Von Chogg wrote:
What makes you think fantasy is so soon?


The company normally cycles updates on a regular pattern, so next year will be 4 years since the arrival of 8th and thats the about the normal lifespan of an edition. I REALLY don't think they need a 9th edition so soon and happy to be proven wrong.




I'd like to see Fishmen vs Chaos Dwarves in the box.


Yes but one year they didn't release anything for 10 months right after the new rules dropped. Personally I think it will be 2 years before an update. I think they will update HE, DE, Dwarves, and Lizards before the new rules.

[/sarcasm] 
   
Made in de
Fixture of Dakka





 kenshin620 wrote:
I think he means "in succession"

The closest is orcs and then goblins, but an orc army is functionally different from a goblin army


Individually, yes, but a common codex makes sense - it's a balanced army book. Goblins = anvils, Orcs = hammers.
   
Made in us
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pontiac, michigan; usa

 Sigvatr wrote:
 kenshin620 wrote:
I think he means "in succession"

The closest is orcs and then goblins, but an orc army is functionally different from a goblin army


Individually, yes, but a common codex makes sense - it's a balanced army book. Goblins = anvils, Orcs = hammers.


Yeah but i've seen quite a few people take just goblins or just orcs with varying units like trolls in between. I actually find goblin armies with arachnoroks, netters and fanatics to be much more potent than orc armies. Speaking of which does anybody use regular goblins? I see night goblins and the forest goblins in the form of the arachnorok and maybe spider riders but no rank-and-file vanilla goblins. Is there any use to taking them? Sorry maybe i just haven't fought O&G enough but i just don't see normal goblins. Also it seems that people use goblin armies a lot more. I've gotta wonder if goblins overall are the better of the two types of greenskins and yet goblins are not respected if there's an orc around. Fantasy racism i says !!! Funny how in fantasy racism about different made-up factions is totally ok (like with dwarfs and elves but increasingly elves in most fantasy settings though it's ok because elves are easy to hate anyway given how every elf in every fantasy lore is).

Back on the subject of O&G though i always find it funny you guys mention how OP slaves for skaven are as a unit for points cost. Aren't night goblins also really good for what they do? I mean fanatics are significantly scary and they auto pop out the second an enemy unit gets close enough. Not to mention they can take up to 3 fanatics per night goblins unit with netters which is still really good even with the points increase since the last army book if i remember. I mean with skaven weapons teams can go on to clanrats and stormvermin but weapons teams have limited range and can be sniped before they do anything by anything from shooting to magic missiles. Fanatics come out of their units when an enemy gets close enough to them from what i've seen and heard. Having multiple individual models as compared to one with the multiple individual models not being as vulnerable for very long is kind of much better even if you can get a good shot or two in with the skaven weapons teams. Besides both are very random and die easily. I dunno i just find it weird how i never seem to hear people complain about fanatics and netters as much as say slaves from skaven or that clanrats have a good cost in points.

-----------------------------

Anyway sorry i went off topic. I think they should probably go the route of one army in the 9th edition starter set having a horde style. A chaos vs empire match-up would be nice as would some non-horde armies but i feel that a horde army is not only good for the bad guys in general but for horde army collectors. I can tell you that the 'island of blood' set has made life so much easier for me when getting enough clanrats/slaves for my army. For any horde collector that has undead or O&G or even beastmen this would be insanely good for getting a lot of models for really cheap.

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Fixture of Dakka





 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Yeah but i've seen quite a few people take just goblins or just orcs with varying units like trolls in between. I actually find goblin armies with arachnoroks, netters and fanatics to be much more potent than orc armies. Speaking of which does anybody use regular goblins? I see night goblins and the forest goblins in the form of the arachnorok and maybe spider riders but no rank-and-file vanilla goblins. Is there any use to taking them? Sorry maybe i just haven't fought O&G enough but i just don't see normal goblins. Also it seems that people use goblin armies a lot more. I've gotta wonder if goblins overall are the better of the two types of greenskins and yet goblins are not respected if there's an orc around. Fantasy racism i says !!! Funny how in fantasy racism about different made-up factions is totally ok (like with dwarfs and elves but increasingly elves in most fantasy settings though it's ok because elves are easy to hate anyway given how every elf in every fantasy lore is).


I play a 100% Goblin army. The Arachnarok is bad. Get as many war machines as you can + squig herders + Goblin tarpits and you're good to go!

Competitively, Goblins&Orcs together are superior as they got more reliable hammer units, higher LD, more resilent characters, more potent magic and no problem with animosity. Style-wise, Goblins kick Orc asses. I mean, really. 300+ models on the battlefield is so awesome.
   
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Been Around the Block





 Sigvatr wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I mean, really. 300+ models on the battlefield is so awesome.


You spend more time setting up and packing down than playing the game you mean?
   
Made in us
Brigadier General





Texas

boyd wrote:

Yes but one year they didn't release anything for 10 months right after the new rules dropped.



Man, 8th edition seems so old now

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 05:20:36


 
   
Made in de
Fixture of Dakka





 triplegrim wrote:

I mean, really. 300+ models on the battlefield is so awesome.


You spend more time setting up and packing down than playing the game you mean?


Nah, it's not that bad. It certainly takes some time, but magnetic bases help a lot. The bigger problem is finding a place for the dead models to wait during the game - when your horde of Night Goblins gets Dwellers'd, it's getting fun

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/05 08:16:37


 
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





Topeka, KS in the Dustbowl Sector

I say, always good vs. bad army.. not going to happen

I say Vampire Counts vs. Tomb Kings!

and... the return of Nagash!...only in Finecast

"Raise your shield!" 
   
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 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:

and... the return of Nagash!...only in Finecast


Interestingly enough the original Nagash model is currently available in the collector section for the bargain price of $24.75, seriously!

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





I wish they would take out stuff like Acheraon (I spell that differently each time--CHAOS!) and nagash and the witch king guy and teclis. Because they either don't live up to their names or they do and are stupid overpowered and just get banned from games. Then tourneys just start going, no SCs, instead of going through and picking the really bad ones.

   
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Ghastly Grave Guard





Cambridge, UK

As much as I love Nagash, I could get behind a proposition like that.

1500
500
Vampire Counts 2400
300
Circle Orboros 20 
   
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Screaming Banshee




UK

Indeed

Be better off bringing them out as a collection of "Legendary" Characters that can be used in Winds of Magic / Appocalypse style games.

Many of them are Immortal or close as damn it and so period makes very little difference to them.

"Evil": Dracenfels, Nagash, Malkieth, Morathi, Zacharias,

"Good": Everqueen, Orion, Ariel, Sigmar,

"Neutral": varied Slaan, Setra, Neferata

Loads of others to add for those unique and exotic alliances that happen suprisingly often.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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2nd Lieutenant





Florida

Getting back on topic so the thread isnt locked.

Like I said before, I would love to see dwarves in the next starter. If I had to wish for something it would be a plastic Gotrek and Felix, but that will never ever happen Im sure.

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