Warning to the Community: Defiance Games rip off

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Kroothawk**

HisDivineShadow wrote:
And they have repeatedly said 'Tony is out as far as running things' which means he is still involved.

Reminds me of the Mandelbaum and the Maelstrom/Mierce thread, which is not a good thing.

**paulson games**

Kroothawk wrote:
Reminds me of the Mandelbaum and the Maelstrom/Mierce thread, which is not a good thing.

Hence the warning to the community tag line.

I don't think this toliet clog of a situation will be resolved anytime soon.

**plastictrees**

carlos13th wrote:
This has come up on their facebook.

Hello, I'm in a bit of an odd situation here. I was going to prepare a statement regarding Ken from Proxie models and his posts regarding our business transactions on various forums and release that statement next week along with our newest pod cast. Then, there were several messages asking me to comment now. So I did, and all my comments were twisted and spun as I'm sure this message will be as well. I'm damned if I speak up, I'm damned if I'm silent. It's a no win situation for me no matter what I do. But, I feel that I owe it to the customers who have stuck by us to explain what I can as best I can. So I'll do that.
Some think that this is some ploy from Tony Reidy and that you're all being tricked by him. It's not. Tony is out as far as running things.
We are currently in the midst of a company wide reorganization. Tony Reidy has nothing to do with any financial aspects of the company. That's all I can say until things are finalized. Once they are there will be a formal announcement.

I've been reading all the posts left here and elsewhere regarding Proxie-gate as we have come to call it here.
I'm going to say this final word regarding it and will be addressing it in next weeks pod cast then I'm dropping this subject and moving foreword. I'm looking ahead and not back. Take that how you want to.
I've considered all the rational, reasonable comments and realized I was wrong in my original decision. I'm sorry to Ken and to all of you. I believe that there were several misunderstandings on both sides and some things have been blown out of proportion. but it falls on me as I'm the one running things. I made what I thought was a good business decision at that moment but I was wrong. It was a bad call. People make mistakes.
I'll do my best to fix things with Ken if I possibly can.
We are a small company, I have three people in my staff that I have to think about and all the customers who have given us a second chance with the Kickstarter. I refuse to let this ruin that chance.
You, the customers, come first and I'm sorry I let myself get caught up in all this drama as it caused me to lose sight of what's really important, my team and my customers.
Someone from Defiance Games will be contacting Ken and attempt to remedy the situation. Resources are limited at present and all our Kickstarter funds have to go toward the Kickstarter. We have several sets to produce and it will be taking up all the Raised money to do that. Sculpts, molds, materials and shipping all add up fast.
Our intention is to fulfill the Kickstarter and move on from all this. We have a lot to do and we will show everyone that we are not the Old Defiance Games. It's possible that the shadows of the old company will haunt us forever. I hope that's not the case and I'll do everything I can to get past that. I understand we have a lot to prove and I know it's not going to be easy.
I also want to thank everyone for all the support I've gotten from friends, family and customers. I sincerely appreciate it. -Gary

For all its length it actually says very little.

It says a lot, just nothing good, other than vague suggestions that they will "do (their) best to fix things with Ken".
Well, you could...pay him? That would probably go a long way to rectifying his not being paid.

The rest is pretty awesome actually. The mentions of his words being twisted, leaving behind the 'Old Defiance Games' (and presumably _really_ leaving behind the old WGF which also didn't pay it's debts).
Tony is 'out' and your first public business decision is to try to weasel out of paying one of your contracts. Looking good.
Everything drips of being a victim and struggling to make an honest buck.
As I said in the other thread, previously Defiance were seen as vaguely incompetent. You can dispell that by producing quality product. Now you're establishing yourself as incompetent AND shady. Maybe you need another 'reorganisation'.

**rustforge**

I have been asked to make some corrections here so that everyone fully understands the situation. As has been stated, Proxie Models is currently owed money from DG for the barricades that he manufactures. This part of the situation is completely correct.

The issue regarding the money for shipping containers is a bit more involved. Proxie manufactures the containers for Rust Forge. DG placed an order for the shipping containers that we had proxie direct ship to DG due to the size. When the money never showed from DG, it meant that we could not afford to pay Proxie, either.

This has resulted in us not being able to produce new product until we can get Proxie paid up. Since we only have a small collection of product, it is taking a lot of time to make the money to pay proxie. We used every penny we could to start this company and have been effectively held hostage until this issue is resolved. Every dollar earned is being saved to pay Proxie. Once he is payed up we will start saving for new product again.

We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.

**paulson games**

"Money is tight" I'd believe that a bit more if they hadn't just smashed their funding goal by 9 times. If a KS is properly managed then your start up costs and break even point are what you base your initial goal on, once you've cleared that goal then funds beyond that start generating a profit. Now unless the managers are grossly incompetent generating almost 9 times your expected funding should generate a good level of actual profit.

I suspect why Rust Forge and Proxie waited so long to release any of this info was that they were likely hoping that since Defiance hit their funding goals with plenty of excess they'd do the moral thing and make good on their debts. That obviously didn't materialize and things went belly up at that point.

How does concern for your customers translate into shorting your vendors? If you've created bad blood with your only supplier of plastics how is that good for your customers? The supplier will shut off your supply and you're now unable to provide the products that you promised to your customer base. I fail to see how creating situations which result in undelivered product is in the best interest of the customer.

**insaniak**

Ramshackle_Curtis wrote:
As it stands Defiance is holding $46,492 from the kickstarter. .

Well, that, minus 5% for kickstarter, and another 3-ish percent for Amazon...

**Trondheim**

Once again I am reminded of why I almost never buy anhything over the internett any more. But my sympaties for those whom has been relived of hard earned cash by these cutt purses

**agnosto**

You know, it never occurred to me about Rustforge. So DG owes both Proxie (for the barricades) AND Rustforge for the shipping containers (which funds would ultimately go to Proxie). So DG is basically screwing Proxie over twice and hurting one other small businesses in the process. Wow.

In addition, it's all due to this massive company-wide reorganization that's taking place and proceeding with monolithic slowness (for a company comprised of 3 or 4 people).

I don't care who Tony or Gary are, you just don't operate like this and expect people to think of you as, "a man of my word". Pitiful.

I truly hope that Proxie and Rustfoge get what they're owed and that the Kickstarter backers get a decent product. I'm conflicted because I also wish DG goes out of business quickly so that they are unable to hurt any other people's lives with their dirty dealings.

**RiTides**

agnosto wrote:
You know, it never occurred to me about Rustforge. So DG owes both Proxie (for the barricades) AND Rustforge for the shipping containers (which funds would ultimately go to Proxie). So DG is basically screwing Proxie over twice and hurting one other small businesses in the process. Wow.

Yeah, that's pretty insane

And 100% agreed with the points you drew from this, as well... no one is going to trust or take Defiance Games seriously when they're treating the other manufacturers / companies that they work with like this.

Why in the world would you trust them to make and ship you a product, based on a sketch or the like, when they are currently showing themselves incapable of paying another TWO companies for product that they already received? They need to resolve this, immediately, to have any chance of recovering their company's reputation imo... and even then, it'll be difficult. But without resolving it, there's no chance of it at all. This is a small community, you can't burn bridges like this and expect to continue to be able to do business.

**Kroothawk**

rustforge wrote:
We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.

Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.

**RiTides**

Proxie's future isn't in Defiance Games' hands- but it sounds like a rather large sum of money is.

I do agree that with a company such as this, one should ask for payment Upfront... I'm sure that will be the case for every business dealing with them in the future. But, most businesses operate on credit... unfortunately that is not something safe to do in this case now, clearly.

**rustforge**

Kroothawk wrote:
rustforge wrote:
We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.

Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.

Well, I can't speak for Proxie, but I guess the best answer to this is that we thought they had gotten their stuff together. We were wrong and we are paying for it now. It sucks, but that's about the whole of it. There is enough evidence on these forums of companies that turned around, we decided to give DG a chance.

As to tie our business to theirs. That not really what happened.

And we didnt ship them a container of product. We shipped a few boxes of containers. As for security, our muscle guy, Guido, must have been off that day. It's just business and sometimes you take a chance and get burned for it.

**Kalamadea**

This is all pretty horrendous, and I really do hope that Gary has been burned into paying his debts to Proxie and Rustforge, can't speak to RF but Ken is all kinds of awesome and I've been buying from him for a few years now.

That said, I don't think the money should come from the KS funds. If they used that money to pay back previous debts and were unable to fulfil the KS it would be all kinds of messy, and completely unfair to the backers, many of whom I'm sure are completely unaware of DG's dubious history. I'm just glad I didn't back it myself, I've been waiting for those suits since they were announced.

**RiTides**

Even though the Kickstarter includes rewards which are not paid for from Proxie / Rustforge? This pledge level was the third most popular of the campaign:

Choose any ONE of our currently available box sets (Imperial Chinese Militia, Aleutian Swamp Worms, Hudson's Bug Drones, Storage Containers) OR... you get ONE box set of UAMC HARDSUITS! Free Shipping in USA and Canada. $5 Shipping Fee Worldwide.

**Kalamadea**

Even though. That's just one of the options at that backer level and with all this happening who knows if it will still be an option when the surveys go out. This is DG's screw up and they need to make it right with Ken and RF, but not at the expense of screwing even more people over.

**BobtheInquisitor**

I sent them a message basically saying I can wait on my rewards. They need to pay back Proxie and Rustforge. I'm sure if they sent out an update explaining the situation and asked for any backers willing to wait until they can make up the difference with sales to let them know, they would get quite a few. When Mantic asked us if we were willing to forgo wave 2 and receive everything in wave 3, quite a lot of us said, "sure."

**carlos13th**

plastictrees wrote:

It says a lot, just nothing good, other than vague suggestions that they will "do (their) best to fix things with Ken".
Well, you could...pay him? That would probably go a long way to rectifying his not being paid.

The rest is pretty awesome actually. The mentions of his words being twisted, leaving behind the 'Old Defiance Games' (and presumably _really_ leaving behind the old WGF which also didn't pay it's debts).
Tony is 'out' and your first public business decision is to try to weasel out of paying one of your contracts. Looking good.
Everything drips of being a victim and struggling to make an honest buck.
As I said in the other thread, previously Defiance were seen as vaguely incompetent. You can dispel that by producing quality product. Now you're establishing yourself as incompetent AND shady. Maybe you need another 'reorganisation'.

Its mostly empty platitudes and trying to pass the buck before admitting a small slither of fault while still trying to play the victim card. Doesn't say much directly and barely addresses the problem in hand but as you pointed out it certainly says a lot about them as a company.

**NoseGoblin**

Kroothawk wrote:
rustforge wrote:
We are actively pursuing payment still and we are still hoping that we do get paid, but, like Proxie, we are hoping, not hopeful.

Can you elaborate why you and Proxie put the future of your businesses completely into the hands of a company with one of the worst reputations in the business, that has proven to not fulfill its commitments for years? Their screwing of sculptor Ed from Troll Forged was featured on ever major tabletop forum. Not to speak of the things at Wargames Factory. Heck, they even had to make a kickstarter end 2013 so they could finance their June 2012 release! I can't understand how one can send a container full of merchandise to such a company without any security measures.

Because hope springs eternal?

I try not to get involved with other companies workings or weight in on product other than to say.."Wow Great Job!" and give encouragement. I feel for Ken at Proxie because I can understand EXACTLY the situation this puts him in, that is why I have chosen to weigh in on this subject.

I will not pretend to know all the details of the current events but I will say, I know what is like to be a small one man operation. Every sale matters, every investment is a make or break situation and if Proxie and Rust Forge are owed money they NEED to be paid! Playing with others livelihood is unacceptable and if the situation is what it appears to be and Defiance is changing ownership to get out of paying its debts, If this is true, I find the behavior reprehensible.

I supported their KS because I try to see the best in everyone and I had hoped that they were turning over a new leaf, I wanted to encourage this. I did not back for more than I was willing to loose but I truly hoped that they could shed some of the issues of the past and move forward. Have they? I hope so but I have no reason to doubt what Ken is saying... it certainly puts a stain on the new coat of paint....

**Ramshackle_Curtis**

And 100% agreed with the points you drew from this, as well... no one is going to trust or take Defiance Games seriously when they're treating the other manufacturers / companies that they work with like this.

Unfortunately, this company is run by scam artists and con men, so even if Defiance goes belly up, the guys in charge will soon be back stealing more money from people who dont know the deal.

**RiTides**

Well, as Nose Goblin (Mark from Dreamforge) says, they have a chance to turn over a new leaf- but that chance is completely ruined if they don't pay what they owe Proxie Models and Rustforge! So, there is incentive and benefit to them if they resolve this... hopefully they see reason.

**PresidentOfAsia**

I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)

**Noir**

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)

Ehh... what makes you think the KS will turn out better then there other projects.

**Kroothawk**

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine

Are you sure you know the difference between a scammer and a recaster?

**RiTides**

That's a fair point, actually

. With one, you may get a subpar product... with another, no product at all.

I am not saying "scammer" applies to Defiance Games, however in order for it not to be applicable in the future they certainly need to set this right ASAP...

**Eilif**

To be fair to DG, they have delivered their products, just very late, and, IMO, with subpar results for the last 3 spincast miniatures products.

I wouldn't call them scammers of the public yet, but you can make your own mind up regarding their treatment of their suppliers. I'm going to lay back for a while and wait to hear from Rustforge and Proxie to see if product is returned and/or funds are paid. Proxie has said he'd keep us in the loop as far as this goes.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Seriously, I know some of you think that the KS money should only be spent on the KS, and it is a fair point, in a sense. Two things come to mind, though. 1)they wildly exceeded expected levels of funding (even I never thought it would go that high) so 2)wouldn't it be the honourable thing to, if not pay everything so they don't jeopardize the KS delivery dates, at least make a partial payment and agree to a payment plan, in a gentlemanly way?

**Kilkrazy**

In terms of contract and business law, any money the firm has on hand should be used to pay debts as they fall due.

That means money received from Kickstarter can and should be used to pay Proxie.

**Big P**

PresidentOfAsia wrote:
I don't really care what they do, as long as I get the hardsuits and the German Mech I'm fine(then again, I'm one of the few who feel little qualm about buying recasts from China)

And that attitude is why we have recasters and dubious business practices.

**Breotan**

All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.

**Ouze**

Breotan wrote:
All I can say is that the KS thread had warnings posted very early on from people in the community. Those of you who pledged did so after ignoring them. I was initially going to make a comment about caveat emptor but since fraud is an exception to that, I think instead I'll stick with the old saying about fools and their money.

What an incredibly insensitive thing to say. I mean, this is this guy's livelihood, and you see fit to come and point and laugh? Wow. Well, I guess it's not Dakka without Blame The Victim.

I hope Ken gets made whole. Maybe some community pressure will help.