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 cincydooley wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
nkelsch and cincy, so I take it you guys are really pro-CMON in this instance and anti-SPM? Your posts in both the Arcadia and this thread seem to indicate so.

I'm much more interested in a SPM Super Dungeon Explore than a CMON knockoff... but that doesn't mean I'm going to kickstart it given SPM's recent issues as others have already covered.

Thats a weird question for me, because I have a vested interest (in actual friendships) in both.

I TRUST CMoN as a business more than I TRUST SPM as a business, and for various reasons, many of which I think people here probably share.

I WANT to be able to KS Forgotten King. I really do. Its going to depend, a LOT, on the transparency of their process. I need to know that something is going to get delayed out of neglect or mismanagement, rather than legitimate production problems (flaws in a design that they discover from mass production, etc).

I like SDE. I like the minis for SDE. I own everything currently existing for SDE. I like the guys involved in SPM. I also think there's room for both SDE and Arcadia. I'm not Anti-SPM at all. But right now, it's a matter of faith and trust.

I have to echo a lot of cincy's comments. I am farily active in the Sodapop forums and do a lot to promote SDE as a game. I have bought multiples of every set of every SDE release. You can't get much more 'support' from me.

The issue is they have been stringing customers along with teased retail release dates for TFK since summer of last year saying retail release Q1 2014 (which would be exactly 1 year between expansions) which is reasonable. After Von Drakk, they were almost the 'blizzard' of board games where you just 'love the content' but accept delays because you love the content.

Now it is a KS instead of retail and I have to wait another 6 months? And SDE, which is already a hard sell to gamers due to the DM component, SDE is due to get murdered by MYTH here. I honestly suspect I may never be able to get a group to play SDE ever again even with new releases if Myth is good because Boardgamers and non-rpgers *HATE* DM and I *ALWAYS* have to play consul. People tolerant of DMs and the SDE format lean to other games.

So from a pure customer being selfish, here is the position I am in:
*I want any and all Chibi models I can get.
*No one wants to play SDE as-is without effort due to the game format and it is 'not new'.
*Myth (which will hit my house within a month will suck the air out of the board gamers arena)
*I was EXPECTING due to months of information from Sodapop a retail release in Q1 2014.
*I have not gotten my Relic Knights SDE exclusives.

It sucks. They are in a bad position. While I understand the situation between CMoN and SP, I am not quick to declare either 'innocent' in the disagreement, but from what I have heard from talking to people 'in the know' on both sides, I can't blame either side for their actions, simply seems like Sodapop misjudged it. Sodapop wanted to produce their own games and buy out their contract. That's cool. CMoN has a hole in their product line, has willing game developers and ability to produce a new game quickly to fill the hole. They have no obligation not to and it is actually good business. I think Sodapop failed to think CMoN would be capable of spinning up a game and getting it to market. I think they got caught with their pants down. I know CMoN has their own issues and reputation, but frankly the same reason why I *WILL* buy the SDE TFK is the same reason I *WILL* buy AQ froM CMoN. I want the figures.

The problem is Myth is hitting the market hard and seems to be universally seen as good. AQ (from what I have seen and heard) seems to capture a very light multiplayer which will appeal to people not into the heavy nature of Myth. SDE is 'fun' but has rules issues as is and I don't have much faith that the new system will be 'rock my socks off' great and seems that I will have it 'in-hand' after both established MYTH playing and AQ probably beating them to KS backers boxes (and pocketbooks). You now have what should have been a Q1 captive release where they could have all of our money tomorrow is going to be taken by lots of people.

I will probably be backing AQ and TFK both fully. I want the models and have a decent KS budget. The truth is, while I may get TFK, the chances that SDE will become a dominate game in my circles may be slim... which is the true failure right now. You can't leave yourself exposed and not expect others to make competing products. (or be late to the game which has been clear due to the fan rules and discussions on the SDE messageboards)

They had an opportunity to relase TFK as a retail expansion, then KS the 2014 'release' with the new edition rules which can be released electronically faster and then physically later. They could have had people's money for figures and playing the new rules before AQ's KS finished and before MYTH boxes get unpacked and tested. If TFK was in my hands in the next 30 days I can say it would have gotten priority over other games in my gaming circle. The only reason this can't happen is Sodapop is basically broke.

No insider knowledge here, but I wager SPM were surprised to see CMON's 'Not'-SDE game hit kickstarter so soon (if they saw it coming at all)...and threw this together as a kickstarter (instead of general release as they led us all to believe) to take the wind out of the sails of CMON's kickstarter. Look to see this kickstarter overlap AQ by at least a week is my guesstimate. Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete. I will be backing this project despite still not having my SDE exclusives from Relic Knights. I like their art style and their miniature quality, and am really interested in seeing some better rules (co-op/solo play, maybe they will offer a campaign system as well?)

Also, only half-serious...I want to think that maybe they wouldn't be so broke if they'd stop hiring half-naked pin-up models to cos-play in their booth at conventions...just sayin.

 Fango wrote:
Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete..

Woudn't be so sure about this.

This exact stuff is the kind of project expansion that caused a lot of problems with the Relic Knights KS.

Ross was pretty clear in the FB post that they wouldn't be doing that again to ensure that scope creep didn't affect them too much.

 Fango wrote:
Also, expect to see a dozen (at least) exclusive chibi characters/mini-bosses to come up as stretch goals and add-ons, since the game is already 98% complete.

While I hope to back this (budget allowing) if they end up with a dozen or more characters shown as just concept art (no matter how cool) it might actually make me drop out

The delays at the Soda Pop end of things for both Relic Knights and Robotech have looked to be down to getting sculpts done in a timely manner (and more and more quality freelance sculptors are booked up years in advance) and I wouldn't like to have another year long delay like Relic Knights looks to be set for

I'm hoping they keep it simple, and keep it cheap (compared to retail) instead with a relatively rapid turn around

I think he was referring to the fact that he expanded each of several factions with multiple models...these all had to be sculpted, separated for mold making (or molds tooled for digital sculpts) and each figure had a sku# and individual packaging designs for eventual retail.

Two of the most successful board game kickstarters ever were Zombicide and Zombicide: Season 2, their model will be closely considered I'm sure. SDE: TFK is 98% done, all of the models included in the box have already been produced and shown in public. So making a dozen or so new single sculpts as exclusives/add-ons is not outside the realm of possibility here, and is very likely. Most backers like to see these, and the completionists out there will pay whatever it takes to 'get them all.'

Besides 'extras' of whatever is included in the new box, I'm not sure what else they can offer to potential backers as incentive to sustain a steady growth in a month-long kickstarter campaign. I would be very surprised if my prediction were proven false.

They are currently sitting on Kaelly the Nether Strider I wonder if the planned retail release will be dropped in favour of adding her to the KS

spoiler due to image size



The sculpt is also done.

I half expect to see Marie Claude and Esmee get the chibi treatment as well and possibily a new or even just plastic version of Candy and Cola.

Yeah, regardless of what kind of KS we WANT to see, I just don't think SPM can afford the extra time a bunch of new or exclusive minis would add to the delivery time. They need something to compete with Myth (and perhaps Arcadia) asap and an expansion for a game that doesn't compete with Myth in it's current form just isnt good for the future of SDE at this point.

Without the distribution contacts and logistical and financial assistance that CMoN might have provided, shipping in multiple waves is probably out of the question too. So yeah I think this is going to be free of frills.

Edit: Hah! I think you are right Dave, there's the KS 'exclusive' right there

I hope they include the Relic Knight SDE characters. They're the things I really regret missing out on having pulled out of that Kickstarter, so offering them here would certainly get me interested.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I hope they include the Relic Knight SDE characters. They're the things I really regret missing out on having pulled out of that Kickstarter, so offering them here would certainly get me interested.

As someone buried root deep in the Relic Knights KS, I'd be fine with this idea.

I'd really like to see upgrades to the game materials for the box. For example, a "casino quality" cards upgrade would be very welcome by me. That's one of the things I liked least about SDE: the hero cards were (are?) very flimsy.

I think the board quality could use some improvement...after a couple of uses, the edges got messed up on my original set. They need to take notes from FFG.

Arcadia Quest Looks cool, I'm currently pledging for it. But I'm anxious to see what SDE does with a Kickstarter. Still waiting on my Relic Knights as well though, so, 'cautiously anxious'.

Well, looking at AQ, TFK needs to have more than just 12 stretch goals. AQ, 2 days in, has already put up 3 freebies and 1 buy in. So if TFK is going to run for a month, or 4 weeks, they'll need a lot of stretch goals, and don't troll your backers like Mantic does with "free short stories!" What? They pretty much need to have a whole other expansion thought out, as a lot of the more successful KS's have.

Rivet Wars is probably a great example, filling out their next years worth of regular releases through the KS. If TFK only has the TFK boxed game and nothing else substantial, I think it will probably fund, but only from the diehard SPM lovers.

Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

Hmm, every ks they've been involved in has massive delays, their warehouse is staffed by two guys who are backlogged and take ages to reply to retail problems ( or just ignore altogether) and now another kickstarter?
I hope they have something addressing al of this ready to go.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

I think looking for a project run as cleanly as Rivet Wars is....optimistic

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

I agree with you, it was a really well done KS, and Ted really seems to care both about his game and the community. I'm really glad I went in on that one.

I wouldn't mind the RK SDE figures either, as I passed on that KS, though I'd like to have those figures. I didn't get the Zombicide figures either, though those would have been nice to have also...

So who wants my RK SDE figs? Highest bidder...and go!

Do you have them yet?

...thought not

 RiTides wrote:
Do you have them yet?

...thought not

Bazinga!!!

Really interested to see how this campaign goes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK. It'd also be interesting to know if they can actually do it, or if CMON has some form of claim to them due to their inclusion in the RK KS.

 Azazelx wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Rivet Wars really was a cleanly run campaign, plus it had none of the usually Kickstarter Drama Drama we get at Dakka Dakka.

Personally I think having the full suite of RK SDE characters as optional buy-ins right at the start would help achieve some of the early stretch goals.

It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK. It'd also be interesting to know if they can actually do it, or if CMON has some form of claim to them due to their inclusion in the RK KS.

I'd imagine if Ninja Pop bought out their contract with CMoN it would include rights to all of the moulds and stuff, right?

One would assume so, using layman's logic, but with us not knowing the details and with the entire RK project still pending delivery.... so who knows?

 Azazelx wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.

Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDE KS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?

If I could get the RK figures for Super Dungeon, I'd chip in.

Screw rarity and all that rubbish. I think the only people who really have a problem with figures losing value because they aren't as exclusive any more are the ones who resell stuff.

The more people that get to play with their toys, the better (in my opinion).

I doubt they'd offer them the same as what was in the RK campaign anyway. I'd be okay with a pose variation/ card variation to keep all the gripers away (and maybe get them to pledge for the same figures twice).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.

Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDE KS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?

Good point. In fact, I'm going to pull my pledge on this one, right now!

 Azazelx wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.

Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDE KS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?

Good point. In fact, I'm going to pull my pledge on this one, right now!

H.B.M.C. one upped you on RK - he pulled his pledge AFTER they collected it!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:

Screw rarity and all that rubbish. I think the only people who really have a problem with figures losing value because they aren't as exclusive any more are the ones who resell stuff.
The more people that get to play with their toys, the better (in my opinion).

I'm in agreement with you here. I'm not a fan of KS exclusives and all that rot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

H.B.M.C. one upped you on RK - he pulled his pledge AFTER they collected it!

How did he manage that?

He's magical like that.

I'd really like to back this, having all of the current SDE stuff available at retail, but SPM's track record makes me very leery of doing so. I'll probably pass until it's at retail unless there's some sort of fantastical deal offered.

I guess you could say that SPM might have to start in damage control mode (just to complete all the KS Dakkamemes).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
It'd be interesting to see if that created a whole lot of butthurt from people who ordered them as part of RK.

Of course it will. People got annoyed that they were included in the RK KS, so a new set of people will get annoyed if they're included in an SDE KS. People get annoyed if anything happens in a KS, so why should this be any different?

Turnabout is fair play, as they say! Bring on the Relic Knight stretch goals for the SDE KS campaign!

New knights based on SDE characters, free Sophia Drake, and a Relic Knights themed play mat.

 Azazelx wrote:
Good point. In fact, I'm going to pull my pledge on this one, right now!

That's the spirit!