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 insaniak wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

Coming out with a new edition is a risk. There's a chance everyone will stay with the previous edition, and you lose all the money spent on development.

Less of a risk if you actually engage the community who supports your game, rather than writing it in a vaccuum and hoping for the best...

But, does it stop being a risk?

 Random Dude wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
I have a question for all the people with huge collections who say they hate GW. Did you buy all that stuff a long time ago? Cuz if you're still buying GW stuff while complaining at the same time, it doesn't make much sense.

I'll answer this when you stop using the "H" word. Deal?

Fine. People who dislike GW's decisions?

It's been pointed out on numerous occasions that disliking a company's business decisions and disliking a product that that company produces are not necessarily the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ashikenshin wrote:
But, does it stop being a risk?

If it's done right, it becomes a negligible one.

 ashikenshin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:

Coming out with a new edition is a risk. There's a chance everyone will stay with the previous edition, and you lose all the money spent on development.

Less of a risk if you actually engage the community who supports your game, rather than writing it in a vaccuum and hoping for the best...

But, does it stop being a risk?

Well, no. But it is a major mitigating factor. Put out an open Beta (PP did for Mk2) to get a gakload of free feedback from your customers. Simples.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm sorry your GW is shrinking, anecdotal stuff, my local one is growing, we're getting new players all the time.

So you both provide contradicting anecdotal evidence on whether GW is shrinking or growing.

I just wished there was a way to verify which one of you were right. If only GW were a public company and published their financials. But, alas, we'll remain in the dark.



As for the article... I usually appreciate Reecius' positive outlook on 40k, but some of these points are just dumb. Spinning 7th from desperation (again, if only there had been some sort of financial reports to back my point here...) to laudable bravery is the sort of absurdity you normally hear from North Korea.

And as for the customer service that constantly gets praised everywhere... I just don't get it. I mean, their customer service isn't bad, but... "excellent" and "kicks ass"? What? Your defective product gets replaced? Does anyone really have problems with that from any other companies? Or is it that you only have to wait a year before they fix their hopelessly ambiguous rules (that you paid for, btw)? Can anyone tell me why their customer service deserves extra mention? I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious.

Oh I know, betas are great feedback for developers. I know Final Fantasy XIV: ARR was way better because of it and Destiny will be amazing. I think they handle the company in questionable ways and it appears as if they are stuck in the past for some reason.

Would 7th ed have been better with a Beta? Hell yes! would it have been a risk nonetheless? well, yes

Got to laugh at one of the points being "they didn't raise prices." That's ignoring the fact this is even being brought up in the first place because we're so used to price rises. And really, would price rises make much difference to many people now? The stuff is so expensive that if you're going to be priced out, you probably already have been by this point. And when stuff just starts off prohibitively expensive, saying "well, at least that isn't a price rise" sounds very hollow indeed.

I like the setting, I like a lot of the new models, and I've enjoyed the games of 7th I've had. It's mainly the blatant money-grabbing I can't abide. And yes, I know businesses have to make money, but I feel the prices are just a joke. £38 for 3 infantry? £15 for a single model HQ choice? If I were to upgrade my old-style Broadsides to the new kit that'd be £120. Come off it.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good luck finding anyone who says they "hate GW" that's very much a label applied to people expressing a critical opinion of GW's actions, regardless of how well founded and supported those criticisms may be, by the "apologists" because as a rule, ad hominem attacks, hand waving and reductum ad absurdum are about all they have in their locker.

funny, replace "apologists" with "haters" and it seems like thats what the apologist call the haters too...


at least no one is calling you out as "stupid" for hating GW....

critical opinions, when justified, are just fine, some criticisms are valid on GW, other are presented as valid, but are really not. OFC the "haters" disagree and feel their invalid reasons are valid.

and they are entitled to their own opinion, but to claim it as a provable fact, is just silly.

at least the apologists admit its their OPINION that the game is fun, instead of trying to acti like its a provable fact that 40k is the bees knees.

 Fezman wrote:
Got to laugh at one of the points being "they didn't raise prices." That's ignoring the fact this is even being brought up in the first place because we're so used to price rises. And really, would price rises make much difference to many people now? The stuff is so expensive that if you're going to be priced out, you probably already have been by this point. And when stuff just starts off prohibitively expensive, saying "well, at least that isn't a price rise" sounds very hollow indeed.

I like the setting, I like a lot of the new models, and I've enjoyed the games of 7th I've had. It's mainly the blatant money-grabbing I can't abide. And yes, I know businesses have to make money, but I feel the prices are just a joke. £38 for 3 infantry? £15 for a single model HQ choice? If I were to upgrade my old-style Broadsides to the new kit that'd be £120. Come off it.

I dislike GW's prices. I don't understand why anyone would buy from them directly when you can get 20% discounts on un-opened items on ebay.

 easysauce wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Good luck finding anyone who says they "hate GW" that's very much a label applied to people expressing a critical opinion of GW's actions, regardless of how well founded and supported those criticisms may be, by the "apologists" because as a rule, ad hominem attacks, hand waving and reductum ad absurdum are about all they have in their locker.

funny, replace "apologists" with "haters" and it seems like thats what the apologist call the haters too...


at least no one is calling you out as "stupid" for hating GW....

critical opinions, when justified, are just fine, some criticisms are valid on GW, other are presented as valid, but are really not. OFC the "haters" disagree and feel their invalid reasons are valid.

and they are entitled to their own opinion, but to claim it as a provable fact, is just silly.

at least the apologists admit its their OPINION that the game is fun, instead of trying to acti like its a provable fact that 40k is the bees knees.

Except I very deliberately placed apologists in quotation marks, to try and indicate I was using it as a form of shorthand rather than in a literal sense.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I'm sorry your GW is shrinking, anecdotal stuff, my local one is growing, we're getting new players all the time.

Wow, I never knew your local store was the entire company and representative of the world.

But his is because he agrees with your point of view right?

 Random Dude wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Got to laugh at one of the points being "they didn't raise prices." That's ignoring the fact this is even being brought up in the first place because we're so used to price rises. And really, would price rises make much difference to many people now? The stuff is so expensive that if you're going to be priced out, you probably already have been by this point. And when stuff just starts off prohibitively expensive, saying "well, at least that isn't a price rise" sounds very hollow indeed.

I like the setting, I like a lot of the new models, and I've enjoyed the games of 7th I've had. It's mainly the blatant money-grabbing I can't abide. And yes, I know businesses have to make money, but I feel the prices are just a joke. £38 for 3 infantry? £15 for a single model HQ choice? If I were to upgrade my old-style Broadsides to the new kit that'd be £120. Come off it.

I dislike GW's prices. I don't understand why anyone would buy from them directly when you can get 20% discounts on un-opened items on ebay.

Unfortunately in this game one box of something is not always enough to make a viable unit...and when the RRP is so high, even when a discount is applied I find the price starts to stack up to a level I can't justify. For that reason I now (well, for WH40K) restrict myself to only using models I already own.

"Apologist" isn't a negative term. Google it.

 MWHistorian wrote:
"Apologist" isn't a negative term. Google it.

There's probably some fancy psychological term for it, but I expect that if you're labelled with what you view as an equivalent term to something you have used in a negative way, you're going to assume that it's also a negative term.

Though, of course, that would mean anyone who called another user a "hater" was breaking rule 1.....

At this point I get the impression that maybe 10-15% of dakka's most regular 40K commenters actually play/have played the game, and the rest are insane internet cranks who were told that this place has a high tolerance for crazy people

and then there's the small percentage of us who come here to call out the crazy people

Well, I don't know of I qualify as a "most regular 40K commentator" or not, but I play at least once a week, most recently on Monday, it was a Maelstrom game against Waveserpent spam with Hammer and Anvil deployment and the most "competitively minded" player at the club.

Wasn't much fun, but I'll keep playing, because it's better than nothing, which right now is the alternative for me and regular gaming, and most games are a lot more enjoyable.

What a tremendously disingenuous article. Given it's author I find that both surprising and disappointing.

 Multimoog wrote:
At this point I get the impression that maybe 10-15% of dakka's most regular 40K commenters actually play/have played the game, and the rest are insane internet cranks who were told that this place has a high tolerance for crazy people

and then there's the small percentage of us who come here to call out the crazy people

Most of the dissenters *USED* to play the game years ago (you know, when GW wasn't quite as insulting towards retailers and customers) which if anything would make our opinion MORE valuable because we are no longer customers. Most businesses like to know why someone is going to a competitor, and what (if anything) they can do to fix the relationship.

He put out his opinion. I may not agree with some points but will admit I am enjoying 7th a whole lot more than 6th. Nothing but fun games so far.

 Multimoog wrote:
At this point I get the impression that maybe 10-15% of dakka's most regular 40K commenters actually play/have played the game, and the rest are insane internet cranks who were told that this place has a high tolerance for crazy people

and then there's the small percentage of us who come here to call out the crazy people

Wow, um...you must really think highly of your opinion if you're calling out 85-90% of dakka members as crazies and labeling yourself as the proclaimed caller-outer-of-said-crazies.

On the topic, I do question this BOLS article a bit- it's been a stark change in tone for Reecius since the days a few months ago when he did the battle reports on how broken (some) Lords of War are, via the Revenant titan. But who knows, maybe he really has been enjoying 7th; I am not positive of what his attitude was regarding 6th so I cannot say. I do wonder though if his opinion, and said review, are influenced to a noticeable degree to what I believe is his profiting as a third party on 40k sales-i.e. via a shop, painting services, etc.

I'm not saying anything bad about him at all, he's a pretty prominent poster and he comes off as a great guy on the videos, I just wonder if this very cheery article is in any way affected by his own financial position.

I could be entirely wrong though, it's just my thoughts on the whole thing. I'm glad he's enjoying 7th, I wish him all the best.

It's ok, Teddy says I'm crazy like a weasel, and the wardrobes say that that's perfectly normal.

 Multimoog wrote:
At this point I get the impression that maybe 10-15% of dakka's most regular 40K commenters actually play/have played the game, and the rest are insane internet cranks who were told that this place has a high tolerance for crazy people

and then there's the small percentage of us who come here to call out the crazy people

Well said!

You're claiming a post is well said for calling out most forum users as insane internet cranks?

Maybe you should up your posting standards if that's what you consider to be commendable.

Disagreeing with someone shouldn't be grounds for calling people insane or cranks.

 Blacksails wrote:
You're claiming a post is well said for calling out most forum users as insane internet cranks?

Maybe you should up your posting standards if that's what you consider to be commendable.

Disagreeing with someone shouldn't be grounds for calling people insane or cranks.

Well said!



...Sorry, I couldn't help myself but see how annoying that is? I honestly try hard to not be derogatory to people, so it's frustrating when posts like that pop up, dismissing all other opinions as having no merit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What a tremendously disingenuous article. Given it's author I find that both surprising and disappointing.

I agree with you. Exalted!

Let's break it down yo, as to how every single point in the article is wrong. At least in my opinion.

"Models did NOT go up in price this year."
Huh? Whosa-whatsit?

For starters, models staying at their unreasonable price is in of itself unreasonable. But prices continue to rise in a more subtle way for a few things- now playing Guard and kitting yourself out with Stormtroopers costs nearly twice as much! Really, no matter how much you like the Scions don't forget it: they cost much, much more per figure than the old stormtrooper 10-man box set. As to continued price raises, well, they haven't had much time to do it yet.

...I anticipate a policy of replacing older kits with more expensive newer kits, as a way to raise prices while people pretend like they aren't because they aren't physically marking up any kits prices anymore. My theory.

"A modular expansion system."
*Face reddens.*

That's code-word-sling-slang for "We released a metric crapload of more expensive books that don't have enough decent content in them."

"Industry leading and innovating."
PBBbbbbt!

We don't owe GW anything for "creating the market", and I'd contend that they've slightly curtailed the growth of the market more than anything. Every time one of my comic-book collecting, magic playing, gaming friends tells me "No way I'd play Warhammer, It's too expensive", I die a little inside.

"Community."
*Gasps for air.*

The community exists outside of GW, with no GW support, recognition, or comprehension. They refuse to listen to us in any meaningful way or try to make us like them. Saying one of the best things about GW is the "communities" is total nonsense.

They're not afraid to take risks.
*Explodes.*

Suffices to say that the risks they're taking are insane and designed for short-term profits.

GW is milking the market like a farmer desperately and forcefully milking a diseased dairy cow. You know the cow is going to die, the farmer probably knows the cow is going to die, but milk comes out and that's all that matters for now- even when the milk comes out a trickle and is increasingly sour. You might see what's ahead but hey, there's still milk coming out and you can always pretend like nothings wrong.

Exactly.

I'm resisting the urge to just respond with another well said, but I'm afraid it'll spiral out of control like the crassus meme did.

CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!!!



SORRY

 Blacksails wrote:
You're claiming a post is well said for calling out most forum users as insane internet cranks?

Maybe you should up your posting standards if that's what you consider to be commendable.

Disagreeing with someone shouldn't be grounds for calling people insane or cranks.

Okay, calling them insane is a bit too much, but I do think many people use dakka as a way to voice their general negativity.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What a tremendously disingenuous article. Given it's author I find that both surprising and disappointing.

Here, here. This is entirely a at who it's coming from. Might have something to do with the Bay Area Open? I'd hate to not make conjecture about a guy that comes off as pretty cool and probably pretty smart to be running the events he does so well.

You have in the comments "MVBrandt" (Mike Brandt of NOVA Fame) talking about how much Malifaux has put a spell over him and how it's a better game. He, too, runs a huge 40k gaming tournament.

I pretty much either disagree with his statements for the reasons already enunciated by the folks here or am flat out flabbergasted on a few of them.

 Random Dude wrote:



Okay, calling them insane is a bit too much, but I do think many people use dakka as a way to voice their general negativity.

As opposed to people who use dakka to voice their negativity about the negativity?

Or blind positivity for the sake of being positive?

Don't judge posts by the level of praise (or lack thereof) towards something, judge it by the actual contents. A post isn't good or bad based on if its praising GW or if its knocking GW; its good if its well written, backed by some sort of logic/experience/evidence/fact/humourous story, and adds to the discussion in some small way.

Want Dakka to improve? Don't further polarize the community by supporting insults or categorizing players. Don't make threads that start off with the equivalent of 'something positive for a change'. Maybe you should reflect on why there's a general trend towards negativity when it comes to GW and their products. Engage with posters in a way where everyone can explain their reasons without being labelled. Understand where other posters are coming from.

It doesn't help your case for positive feelings when the article in question opens up with quite possibly the most apologetic reason I could ever conceive. There's plenty GW has done right and given us that we are appreciative of. Many of us may come off as bitter because of what GW is doing as opposed to what they could be doing to improve it.

That and I don't praise things for the sake of being positive and nice. Praise is given where praise is due.

 Random Dude wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
You're claiming a post is well said for calling out most forum users as insane internet cranks?

Maybe you should up your posting standards if that's what you consider to be commendable.

Disagreeing with someone shouldn't be grounds for calling people insane or cranks.

Okay, calling them insane is a bit too much, but I do think many people use dakka as a way to voice their general negativity.

Hmmm, ok, you've got me intrigued.

So, in essence, you're postulating that, rather than having genuine criticism or concerns with the state of the game or the actions of the maker of that game, people are instead just coming here to complain?

One could refer to them, perhaps, as "a bunch of complainers?" 'Whiners' if you will?

This theory could utterly revolutionise Dakka, we could just simply hand wave away all those complaints! Just dismiss them out of hand!

I would like to know more.