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That'd be awesome, Da Boss! Could you put them next to a common model, like a space marine or similar? Not because I want it to look like a SM, but just for simple reference . Or any model that is easy to tell size / height (a WHFB chaos warrior comes to mind, or an imperial guard cadian, or even an Infinity model for a more well proportioned comparison, if not in a crazy pose).

The scale of these minis would not fit with GW's or Malifauxs at all . Tre generally tries to get around this fact by putting his minis on 20mm (instead of standard 25mm bases) to make them look bigger. But when asked he will say: "I do not make proxies for GW".

Also if you buy from his web store (at least when I foolishly bought), and tried to return them, he had a strict no refunds except for miscasts policy, which was not published anywhere on the site.

obviously kickstarters are no refunds anyway, so maybe that point is moot. But I am posting so as to encourage questions, because while being nice sculpts, his miniatures and company are different from what people are used to

Well, to be clear I'm totally okay with these not being "proxies for GW", or proxies for anything for that matter. I just want to know the size of any particular model, as they vary a lot. I'm particularly interested in the orcs because I might purchase some!

A good friend (Wehrkind on Dakka, who is localish to me) has an incredible fantasy army with many RBG models. The whole army uses alternate manufacturers, with tons of Rackhm sculpts, too, and it works well together.

However, he mentioned just this weekend that the barbarians he received from the last campaign can't fit on 25mm bases - that he would have to use 40mm ones! He said this is because their stances are almost all extremely wide.

Since these are very recent sculpts, I'm not sure if it's Tre responding to feedback by making his figures fill bases, but it just caused the opposite problem - a person who was used to his scale got models that won't fit on standard bases!

I know it's not fair for you to get hounded, Tre, and that dodicula has been a critic of yours. But you need a scale comparison for your range, even for models within the range to see how they compare to each other! FW does this with the running empire model... please consider doing something similar. If nothing else you could finally stop having to respond to scale feedback / questions / comments / confusion, and just direct people to the pics.

Hope this helps (seriously) as I mean it as constructive feedback

Looking forward to those comparison photos of the orcs, Da Boss / Azazelx!

 Gallahad wrote:
Here are some links to blogs with comparison photos that may be of use.

Personally, they are smaller than I care for, and too pricey to buy Red Box exclusively. There are lots of other nice miniatures out there I would like to game with and paint. They are absolutely lovely sculpts and concepts, but too small for me personally.

Thanks for the links Gallahad, that's just what I was looking for. I like RBG scale, especially for the dwarves.

I've never been a fan of the "GW style" dwarves, although I've had to paint a lot of them in the last few months for a commission. I like how the RBG dwarves have more realistically proportioned anatomy.

Excuse me Dodicula but I do not remember ever turning down a refund based on miscasts. Or return for that matter. And I do not try to " get around " the size comparison by basing my figures on 20 mm rounds to make them appear larger. I have never once tried to obfuscate what the size of my miniatures are. if I am asked I tell very specifically. I go to great lengths to let people know exactly how big my figures are. I pose my dwarves and elves and halflings and goblins and mages on 20 mm round bases because that was what I supplied with them. There is NO other motive what so ever.

As to my refunds for miscasts policy........ I think you would be very hard pressed to ever find anyone else who has ever asked me to replace or refund for an actual miscast that has not gotten exactly that. I have shipped many replacement packages on my own dime. I make mistakes I leave figures out of orders on occassion by accident, I miss sort ready packages with waiting packages.

Any mistakes I make i do my best to correct even at great personal expense. If you try to communicate with me I repsond. If I do not respond it is only because I either did not get the message or the message come in in a flood of other messages ( which is becoming a daily occurrence now ) and I simply lost track of it momentarily.

I do not misrepresent my product to anyone for any reason. If you buy my figures looking to proxy them as GW stand ins then you must admit on first sight that the figures are not going to fit in as the proportions themselves are what make the figures look different. Not the " size ".

If I were to call my figures 25 mm scale that would be a misrepresentation because they are in fact built on the scale rubric that a human male armature will stand 32 -36 mm tall with both feet together and back straight. The other races follow the old school DnD aesthetics that elves are shorter and slighter than humans, dwarves are shorter than elves but as stocky as humans and halflings are shorter still than dwarves.

People are so generally confused as to what scale is because the term means absolutely nothing to most of the companies that claim to follow a " scale ".

If you asked me for a refund for an actual miscasting then yes you would have gotten one immediately. If you asked me for a refund of the purchase price of the minis because they were not what you wanted them to be and then also paid out of your own pocket to return them to me then yes you would have gotten a refund. I cannot anticipate what your opinion of " proper scale " is and I am sorry that the issue of scale is so muddled that no one really knows what scale even is anymore but I do not attempt to fool anyone with any kind of trickery. WYSIWYG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I WILL get a standard scale comparison up ont eh site and ont he KS page as soon as possible though. I really really do nto want anyone feeling fooled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I do not mind critics at all. I just do nto appreciate someone insinuating that I am a liar or that I misrepresent myself or my product. Ot saying that I do nto operate my business in a fair and friendly and open manner.

dodicula wrote:
The scale of these minis would not fit with GW's or Malifauxs at all . Tre generally tries to get around this fact by putting his minis on 20mm (instead of standard 25mm bases) to make them look bigger. But when asked he will say: "I do not make proxies for GW".

This statement implies that there is a specific, malicious intent to deceive on the part of Red Box Games. There is none.

Tre chooses a base size that is consistent with the overall size of the miniature. Lots of Tre's models are packaged with 25mm rounds. All of the Evil Barbarians, for example, are on 25mm rounds. Most of the Humans and Norse Humans are packaged with 25mm rounds as well.

The Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Goblins are typically on 20mm rounds because the average heights for those races are less than the average human height. My guess is that Tre feels that 25mm rounds are excessively large for those miniatures.

Now, Tre does not photograph the miniatures with a ruler, but the product descriptions do say what size base the miniatures are supplied with. Generally speaking, very few manufacturers actually photograph their miniatures with a ruler. This is why there are lots of 'comparison photos' around the internet.

I'm not suggesting that this is a good or preferable practice, but it is consistent with established industry norms.

Tre,

I never said you refuse refunds for miscasts, in fact I specifically said you would.

As for size issues, when I ordered several of your zombies, and wrote to you that I would like a refund , you said your policy was miscasts only. This was the exact text of what you sent me:

">> I am very sorry for the delay in my response. I will only accept
>> returns for items which are physically defective ( i.e. miscast. ) I
>> cannot accept returns for figures which do not fit with another
>> company's figures. I am sorry for any confusion but RBG is
>> purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered
>> using your RBG undead purchase as the start of a new collection of all
>> RBG figures?"

Note that you did not mention the option of shipping them back. Also note: " purposefully not made to fit with any other range. Have you considered"

Maybe this has changed recently I don't know, but in our email exchange in 2012 you clearly stated your policy (though it was not on your site at the time) as I described.
If you misstated your policy in the email please let me know, I will happily ship you back the zombie figures as they are still unpainted.


And honestly Tre, just get some scale comparisons up on your site, I know I am not the only person surprised and dissapointed by the scale or proportion or whatever comparisons. I think your potential customers deserve to know.

 tre manor wrote:
I WILL get a standard scale comparison up on the site and on the KS page as soon as possible though. I really really do not want anyone feeling fooled.

Tre, that would be so awesome! Very much appreciated

I'm not worried about the rest, but this would make it so much easier for me to choose which models to purchase from you . Cheers for taking that feedback!

I was wondering when the scale issues was going to pop up once more to a Red Box games discussion. I understand the interest but I find it a little unfair for Tre, this kind of discussion to always take place, considering his minis. I will repost here some pictures I have taken of the Norses of a previous KS of Tre, but still recent. The (male) Barbarians of the last KS are exactly the same size of this Norse guy here. I take a GW Dark Elf corsair as the main comparison figure.

1. Here are the miniatures next to an old Black Guard. It's easy to see that even GW doesn't keep a common size for its minis and tends to "enlarge" the more recent models, as the corsair is larger than Black Guard! It's also easy to see that the Norse guy is taller than the Black Guard.


2. Here a comparison with Saruman from the lotr sbg line


3. Next to a Confrontation mini


4. Next to a personal favourite mini from Magnificent Egos


You can thank me by commenting on my painting
Honesty and good feedback are very welcomed!!

I'll try and get those Orc comparisons up tonight. GW space marine, GW Orc, RBG Orc?

 corgan wrote:
The (male) Barbarians of the last KS are exactly the same size of this Norse guy here.

Thanks very much for the pics! And, from those, I see exactly what my friend was referring to - he has a lot of the older RBG models, which easily stand on a 25mm base, and you can see that this one could not possibly do so (or the Barbarians from the next campaign, as you mention). I know it says they are supplied with a 30mm base, but it looks like they would hang over the sides quite a bit still... that is a wide stance! So, it would just be great to have a pic like this upfront (perhaps with the comparison model even being from Tre's own range, if he prefers) just so people can have a good idea of the size. Looking forward to seeing what Tre comes up with in that regard!

This model, obviously, would fit in well with many things... and honestly if I'd realized they were that size, I might have jumped in! More knowledge is definitely a good thing in this case

 corgan wrote:
You can thank me by commenting on my painting
Honesty and good feedback are very welcomed!!

My favorite is the dark elf on the right of the first pic, if that's a standard you're painting a whole fantasy army to, that is quite nice indeed!

@Da Boss - That sounds perfect, thanks

 RiTides wrote:
Well, to be clear I'm totally okay with these not being "proxies for GW", or proxies for anything for that matter. I just want to know the size of any particular model, as they vary a lot. I'm particularly interested in the orcs because I might purchase some!

A good friend (Wehrkind on Dakka, who is localish to me) has an incredible fantasy army with many RBG models. The whole army uses alternate manufacturers, with tons of Rackhm sculpts, too, and it works well together.

However, he mentioned just this weekend that the barbarians he received from the last campaign can't fit on 25mm bases - that he would have to use 40mm ones! He said this is because their stances are almost all extremely wide.

Since these are very recent sculpts, I'm not sure if it's Tre responding to feedback by making his figures fill bases, but it just caused the opposite problem - a person who was used to his scale got models that won't fit on standard bases!

I know it's not fair for you to get hounded, Tre, and that dodicula has been a critic of yours. But you need a scale comparison for your range, even for models within the range to see how they compare to each other! FW does this with the running empire model... please consider doing something similar. If nothing else you could finally stop having to respond to scale feedback / questions / comments / confusion, and just direct people to the pics.

Hope this helps (seriously) as I mean it as constructive feedback

Looking forward to those comparison photos of the orcs, Da Boss / Azazelx!

I didn't get all the barbarian heroes in the last ks but I know Hakar can fit on a 25mm base. He does have a wide stance and the tab between his feet is too long to fit in the slot in a 25mm base but if you cut down the tab you can fit Hakar on a 25mm base. His feet just barely fit but it works. I don't know about Garm or SvartUlf. They do come with 40mm based which they fit on no problem. I think they are supposed to be heroes and therefore have bigger based. I assume the idea of heroes on bigger based will be incorporated in the RBG fielder that Tre has said will be forthcoming.

I very much like the scale of the RBG minis, and I think the 20mm bases are much more well proportioned to the smaller miniatures. I can see that for some rule sets you would need to put all on the same base size. Bases are cheap though. I also fail to see how it is misleading that the RBG miniatures keep a consistent scale within the range.

@ Prestor Jon - That makes sense, it's just as I noted in the post you quoted, Wehrkind is Very familiar with the RBG range and scale, and he just said he was surprised by these - they were bigger than other RBG models he's gotten and he just didn't realize it when buying them. I had that experience with the wolves - Fenris is awesome and massive, and the dire wolves are quite small. I would have spent the same amount of money had I known, but I would have gotten more of the models that were the size I wanted (whether large or small) by having that knowledge ahead of time!

@ jorny - Also agreed! The point is simply that people don't always know the size of what they're getting, and (at least in my case) might buy more if they could get a good idea of that. So I am really looking forward to what Tre posted above... seems there won't be any issue here since he is going to post standard scale comparisons up soon, anyway . Really looking forward to that!

 tre manor wrote:
I WILL get a standard scale comparison up on the site and on the KS page as soon as possible though. I really really do not want anyone feeling fooled.

 RiTides wrote:

 corgan wrote:
The (male) Barbarians of the last KS are exactly the same size of this Norse guy here.

Thanks very much for the pics! And, from those, I see exactly what my friend was referring to - he has a lot of the older RBG models, which easily stand on a 25mm base, and you can see that this one could not possibly do so (or the Barbarians from the next campaign, as you mention). I know it says they are supplied with a 30mm base, but it looks like they would hang over the sides quite a bit still... that is a wide stance! So, it would just be great to have a pic like this upfront (perhaps with the comparison model even being from Tre's own range, if he prefers) just so people can have a good idea of the size. Looking forward to seeing what Tre comes up with in that regard!

This model, obviously, would fit in well with many things... and honestly if I'd realized they were that size, I might have jumped in! More knowledge is definitely a good thing in this case

 corgan wrote:
You can thank me by commenting on my painting
Honesty and good feedback are very welcomed!!

My favorite is the dark elf on the right of the first pic, if that's a standard you're painting a whole fantasy army to, that is quite nice indeed!

@Da Boss - That sounds perfect, thanks

You are welcomed RiTides!! Yes this is a whole army theme, both the Black gurd and the corsair.

Regarding Red Box sizes and bases I second Prestor Jon. It's exactly as he says.

Sorry, D'n'D game ran over, I gotta sleep now. But tomorrow after work, I promise!

Yeh I can see I do need to clarify a lot mor eof the choices.

Base size and game rules. Yes.....in the rules I was working on multiple models can gang up on other models and the base sizes have a lot of specification for the number of models that can gang up on others. Teh undead specifically are horde models so they are able to gang up with more figures againts opponents.

Base size also dictates a lot about movement and physical fortitude. Figures on samller bases are generally able to move more nimbly than figures on larger bases and can also usually take less damage.

And yes it was also partly an aesthetic choice.

Dodciula, you still have them? Ok shoot me an email and we will work it out. Although I cannot see my figures not fitting in with figures from another manufacturer as being a defect I do prefer to make people happy as often as possible. I have always assumed that my figures are very obviously incompatible with other manufacturers.

Njorn in KS 3.....yes the stance widths got a way from em a little as did the " Hugeness " of the characters. The Njorn are typically supposed to be larger than normal humans to varying degrees. If they are bare chested then you can pretty much assume that they would compare to the average Aenglishman like a 6'6 power lifter vs a 6' footballer. but still the Njorn in KS3 were a little bigger than I woudl have liked.

Teh Helsvakt are intentionally larger and bulkier as per the fluff of their faction. They are borderline super human. The higher their standing amoungst the HelsVakt rank the bigger, and stronger they are.


The undead are emaciated husks of their former selves. So they will appear much leaner and stooped next to the average Human.

 corgan wrote:
I was wondering when the scale issues was going to pop up once more to a Red Box games discussion. I understand the interest but I find it a little unfair for Tre, this kind of discussion to always take place, considering his minis. I will repost here some pictures I have taken of the Norses of a previous KS of Tre, but still recent. The (male) Barbarians of the last KS are exactly the same size of this Norse guy here. I take a GW Dark Elf corsair as the main comparison figure.

1. Here are the miniatures next to an old Black Guard. It's easy to see that even GW doesn't keep a common size for its minis and tends to "enlarge" the more recent models, as the corsair is larger than Black Guard! It's also easy to see that the Norse guy is taller than the Black Guard.


You can thank me by commenting on my painting
Honesty and good feedback are very welcomed!!

Thank you so much! I think I just found my Conan miniature! I'll have to look for some more of the KS3 hero types then since they seem to be larger. Regarding your painting, I sent you a PM so as not to clutter things up here.

Hi guys, sorry, I am a couple of days late posting these, got busy in work and didn't have time yesterday!
Here are some comparisons of Tre's Orcs and Goblins to GW stuff. I also have his recent Norse if people want comparisons of those, and some of the Aenglish from KS1 just tell me if you would like a comparison of any of those. I have his Dwarves too but Azazelx has documented them pretty thoroughly!
Pictures below, spoilered for size.


As you can see, Tre's orcs are pretty beefy. They are also very hunched, if they reared up they'd be even bigger, very ape-like postures with big guts and long arms. His goblins are really tiny, but I love them- full of character!
The bare metal absolutely doesn't do the details justice on my camera btw. The models are gorgeous.
There are a couple of other pictures in my gallery.

One thing about the Aenglish from KS1 there was a good degree of shrinkage in those figures. I never noticed it until recently. They are a good 1-2 mm shorter than the metals.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hi guys, sorry, I am a couple of days late posting these, got busy in work and didn't have time yesterday!
Here are some comparisons of Tre's Orcs and Goblins to GW stuff. I also have his recent Norse if people want comparisons of those, and some of the Aenglish from KS1 just tell me if you would like a comparison of any of those. I have his Dwarves too but Azazelx has documented them pretty thoroughly!
Pictures below, spoilered for size.

Spoiler:

As you can see, Tre's orcs are pretty beefy. They are also very hunched, if they reared up they'd be even bigger, very ape-like postures with big guts and long arms. His goblins are really tiny, but I love them- full of character!
The bare metal absolutely doesn't do the details justice on my camera btw. The models are gorgeous.
There are a couple of other pictures in my gallery.

Should I rehost those pics (with attributation to yourself) when I have time to update the blog with RBG pics?

Absolutely, it makes sense to have the comparisons on a blog rather than scattered around the fora.

If I can do any other comparisons, please let me know.

No worries. I've got limited net access until the first (tomorrow) so I'll do it this weekend if all goes well.

 Da Boss wrote:
Absolutely, it makes sense to have the comparisons on a blog rather than scattered around the fora.

If I can do any other comparisons, please let me know.

Done!

if you've got the inclination to do the same for any of his other figures (Aenglish, etc - or anything at all), just post them and I'll put them up as well. I'm in way too much of a gakky mood today (for unrelated reasons) to take photos etc of my own, but I'll do it when I have the chance and am feeling more pleasant.

Last 4 days!
Really hope we can get the last 5 brigands locked in- have a look at the awesome pictures in the link:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-heroic-fantasy-miniatures/posts




And everything unlocked so far:

I'm really liking everything in this KS, but I think it's the brigands that have me most excited; they will be very, very useful in RPG's. And such fun sculpts; I think Bad Betty and Derek the Dim may be my favorites.

The number of pledge levels might look a bit confusing on this project, but it is really quite simple. All figures are $8 apiece, add $5 for US shipping, $15 for rest of the world shipping. Done. The various pledge levels are just different combinations of this formula.

Here's where we are presently:

The 5 initial Njorn (can be had for $8 apiece, or as a set for $40):


The 5 initial Aenglish (can be had for $8 apiece, or as a set for $40):


The 5 initial Brigands (can be had for $8 apiece, or as a set for $40):


Red Meghan ($8):


Ingvar the Brash ($8):


Bad Betty ($8):


Derek the Dim ($8):


And the next stretch goal, unlocked at $23,500, will be the as of yet unnamed crossbowman:

Will these guys be available from a UK distributor after the KS? There's now a couple I'd quite like but the international shipping kills it(I know that's not anyone's fault, it's just how much it costs, but doubling the cost of two figures to ship is unappealing).

 Yodhrin wrote:
Will these guys be available from a UK distributor after the KS? There's now a couple I'd quite like but the international shipping kills it(I know that's not anyone's fault, it's just how much it costs, but doubling the cost of two figures to ship is unappealing).

I second this question. Would love to get the brigands plus not-Santa & Derek but shipping and estimated import taxes raise the price to something close to 70 EUR.
A bit stiff for 7 minis.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

As for a UK distributor post KS....... Well I had one but i have nto had an order from them in quite some time so I do nto know what the propsects are for them to carry the line from here on. I am working on it though.