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Perhaps you forgot the sheer numbers of guardsmen and weapons.
Kind of the base characteristic of IG

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I find that an Imperial Guard list needs a clear idea of what it wants to do in order to succeed. The Space Marine method of taking a little bit of this and a little bit of that for flexibility just doesn't work for them. You can't count a single Vanquisher to cover your AT, for example. You need at least three.

But of course. The whole IG is organised into regiments of only a single unit type: Regiments of Infantry, regiments of Artillery, regiments of Tanks, Regiments of Shadowswords. The IG works on having so much more than the other guy. The SM player might have a TripLas Predator and a Vindicator for AT. The Guard player has 3 squadrons of Vanquishers and a Vendetta or 6. The tau player has a squad of 3 suits for AA. The IG has 3 Vendettas and a squadron of Hydras. The Eldar player has a Wraithknight to back up his main force and draw fire. The IG player has allied DevCents by the bucketload. The Tyranid player has a Mawloc to deepstrike in and break up large hordes. The IG player has 2 Basilisks, 3 Wyverns and 3 Leman Russ and an allied SM Chapter Master with Orbital Bombardment for good measure.

Guard depend on the edition being played. They are usually very strong or woefully underpowered.

Regardless of edition - playing multiples of the same type (as customline noted) has always been key.

In the current 'dex, armour really is the most viable choice. While the infantry hasn't gotten any worse per se, and orders have become more powerful, the amount of anti-infantry firepower out there which also tends to ignore cover (which everyone takes owing to no shortage of cover buffing shenanigans out here right now [stealth an shrouded stacking, and being so common really piss me off]) means footslogging guard just sort of die without accomplishing anything.

With tanks being cheaper, while not having the insane durability of skimmers, are actually pretty good for AV 14/13/10(11) with good firepower. Incidentally, with the change to heavy making the LRBT and Demolisher less attractive, the fact that their points stayed the same has made them even less attractive (BUY MORE MODELS FOOL! YA'll GOT LOTS OF THOSE - GeeDubs) but Exterminators, Eradicators (oh look, AV14 ignores cover large blast St6 AP4 for 120 points?) Punishers and so on are all excellent vehicles, several of which Pask can make downright stupid.

And, as footslogging infantry are objectively bad, vets in Chimeras were completely un-changed, and their doctrines got cheaper; they carefully avoided the Chimera price nerf by being 10 points cheaper and can still produce an unprecedented amount of special weapon firepower which makes marines green with envy.

I'd say Guard air-cav is also still quite good, especially if you've got some Forgeworld units available, or use a Forgeworld list (Elysian or D-99). Valkyries remain solid choices, vendettas are expensive but still good units, Vultures are godlike ground-support and I'm quite partial to the Avenger Strike Fighter.

Basically, like every codex update, the old, traditional guard are more or less invalid, and you've only got a handful of viable builds in the book and very little flavour. I've mostly stopped playing my Guard to be honest; my Death Korps are shelved (FW footslogging Guard list, just melts under any kind of optimized list, which as of late is all I've seen) and I take out my armoured Praetorian army now and then, but I just don't enjoy the codex to be perfectly frank. Perhaps I was spoiled by the Space Marine book having lots of viable, balanced, themed options in which I rarely feel constrained or punished for building the army I'd like to play with lots of allowances for theme and fluff. Hell, I have over 400 points in tactical terminators in that army, and still usually enjoy myself. Guard? Build the right list or die. Not as stark as, say, Tyranids, but it's certainly one of those books.

I think infantry with the right buffs can still work. Give them all Lascannons, orders and prescience and watch them obliterate the enemy with how much dice they are throwing. I think the only thing you have to worry about is Serpent Sp-

Okay. Point taken.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I think infantry with the right buffs can still work. Give them all Lascannons, orders and prescience and watch them obliterate the enemy with how much dice they are throwing. I think the only thing you have to worry about is Serpent Sp-

Okay. Point taken.

The shield is just one part of it; look at every army, what have they received in spades since their last rendition? Ignores cover or super-high volume of mid-low strength firepower. Perfect for killing guard. Ahriman pumping out 6 witchfires or more, the Turkey, Serpent Shield, Dakkafexes, etc. Even the "bad" armies have plenty of ways to easily swat aside guardsmen. They're good in a vacuum, and have really high damage potential in blobs with specials and heavies with orders and blessings, but in an effort to give each army an ability to counter more powerful units, they've rendered light infantry light guard so much fodder, and not even the kind of fodder which serves a tactical purpose.

The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
The shield is just one part of it; look at every army, what have they received in spades since their last rendition? Ignores cover or super-high volume of mid-low strength firepower. Perfect for killing guard. Ahriman pumping out 6 witchfires or more, the Turkey, Serpent Shield, Dakkafexes, etc. Even the "bad" armies have plenty of ways to easily swat aside guardsmen. They're good in a vacuum, and have really high damage potential in blobs with specials and heavies with orders and blessings, but in an effort to give each army an ability to counter more powerful units, they've rendered light infantry light guard so much fodder, and not even the kind of fodder which serves a tactical purpose.

The other aspect is that other races have received considerable advancements in both firepower and defence, whereas our own firepower and defence has remained the same or even diminished.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.

One big exception: the old heavy flamer troopers. They've got the big round drum tanks on their backs and a cool looking gun. Today's three tube heavy flamers look hilariously awful.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.

Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks

 Vaktathi wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.

Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks

Even less so if the 'buff terminators' crowd get their wish and terminators end up with T5 or FNP.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The old models suck ass. The new Scions look awesome. Beyond that, the concept of them is cool. Just crappy/ugly models. Gameplay, you have 100 S3 shots and you have a squad of terminators that is seriously dead. That's a lotta shots.

Statistically, 100 BS3 lasgun shots nets you between 2 and 3 dead terminators. Not actually as impressive as it looks

Lasguns v Guardsmen = 1 kill per 6 shots

Lasguns v Marines = 1 kill per 18 shots

Lasguns v Termies = 1 kill per 36 shots

Yeah, but on the other hand, you ignore storm shields, so they got that going for e'm.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Yeah, but on the other hand, you ignore storm shields, so they got that going for e'm.

Just like our guardsmen ignore the AP on plasmaguns.

Orks: 6 additional points give you slightly something to fight.
IG: 5 additional points give you next to nothing.

bibotot wrote:
Orks: 6 additional points give you slightly something to fight.
IG: 5 additional points give you next to nothing.

Conscripts, get 2 for 6 points. Two wounds > T4, more shots, more fun.

People are prone to the aesthetics that appeal to them the most. When it comes to discussing art, it is purely an opinionated matter entirely. One man's art is another man's trash, and vice versa. The art of the sculptures for the IG is purely subjective.

As to why represent the IG in the WH40K universe is simple. In any game, you have to show a baseline for statistics. What is the easiest way to do that? You show the basic human soldier. Which in the Grimdark of WH40k, is completely underwhelming comparing him to his competitors.

Only the Orcs and the Tyranids can boast the same volume of Troops as the Imperial Guard. But even they are limited in how many troops that they can deploy to the battlefield. The Orks are limited normally by being divided by bickering warbands. The Tyranids are limited in the fact due to their nature of razing entire planets clear of biomass. The Tyranids can only sustain what the Hive Fleet can support.

I make these points to highlight that WH40k not only needs the IG but Has to Have the IG. The IG puts everything else into proper perspective. Last time I checked, this game was designed by humans for humans to play, correct?

My love for the guard comes from their tanks. I love the Leman Russ tank as goofy as it looks.

To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.

 EVIL INC wrote:
To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.

This got an exalt from me as its very true.
I lose alot but my list is quite nasty with out being rude, I lose but I make you work for it (unless you are an Eldar player that brings a knight to the table, girrrrrrrrrr ).
If I win its an unlooked for bonus

 gmaleron wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Riptides and Wraithknights are not OP

Nothing funny about a factual statement, if you're having issues then you might want to change your list or tactics up.

Your subjective opinion is not fact, especially when you clearly advertise the fact that you play Tau. Let's make that clear.

Whilst I would concede that Wraith Knights are reasonably well balanced given their considerable investment, Riptides are very easy to consider to at least some degree overpowered; I refuse to bog this thread down with too much detail, but even starting off with the facts that you can get an effectively-infinite-range, near infinite LOS-due-to-height S8 AP2 pie plate dispenser that is more often than not is several orders of magnitude harder to kill than a Leman Russ and a Land Raider (even if it doesn't Nova) and moves 6+2D6 a turn for 185 points , anyone with eyes and two braincells to rub together can clearly see it doesn't match up in balance when you draw comparisons. 5 points for an Ion Accelerator, come on, seriously?

Just because I play Tau, and barely have I started playing them and don't own any Riptides, doesn't mean my opinion is biased and that I cannot make an educated decision from looking at facts. I am stating from personal experience that the Riptide is not overpowered. And it is your opinion that they are just as it is the opinion of me and other players, not just people who play Tau, that I found them to not be broken. Does that mean they aren't strong? Not in the slightest, I would hope for something that I pay over 200 points for (because no one takes just the Ion Accelerator) would be a strong model.

I have been an Imperial Guard player for a number of years and when Riptides first dropped I never had issues with them, that includes the Tri Riptide list. The biggest reason the Riptide is so dominant that I have seen is people refusing to change their tactics or lists and people not putting enough terrain on the table which includes area and LOS blocking terrain. And so what it has a large blast 8 AP 2 weapon, you can get a strength 10 large blasts ap2 weapon for 15 points cheaper on a 14 armor hull or take multiple heavy tanks for cheap. Want to complain about Marker Lights? Guess what it's what makes the army unique and even then you're paying a good chunk of points in order to get them so when it comes to cost of said marker lights its pretty expensive and balances out. You And some people may feel the Riptide is to strong but in my experience and other fellow players at my store and others I have been to who feel that the Riptide is manageable.

Back to this thread the ig have a lot of answers for said MCsin the form of their tanks, heavy weapon teams with order, tying it up with conscripts that are fearless and the Vendetta. also one of the best ways to defeat said list was to focus and kill everything else but the Riptides which was doable.

Besides your first paragraph stating the obvious and completely sidestepping the fact that you literally and indisputably said your opinion was fact as I had pointed out (honestly I couldn't care less), there's numerous issues with your arguing here. Oh, and in the first paragraph you also try to claim to be objective. For someone that has made numerous proposed army lists on DD with Riptides and stated openly they were going to use them, I can only respond there with raised eyebrows and muttering "eh".

As to the start to your second paragraph on your apparent non-existent issues with Riptides, I can see 2 things; you're either not entirely being clean with your use of the operative word "never" or you made particular use of Vendettas in your Elysian list, a suggestion which is strongly supported by the fact that most of your old proposed Elysian army lists have 2-3 almost without fail, which makes your point seem immensely weaker when you consider how broken they were back then and how not everyone took that one hard counter.

My issues with this post extend to your trump card arguments/dismissal. "Adapt your list." "Need more LOS blocking terrain so you don't die." "This makes the army unique." These are cheap instant win, indisputable phrases that are effectively meaningless to the point and don't need elaboration that leads to them falling apart. They're of course all valid points and barely relevant, but they don't contribute anything, so forgive me if I don't delve into them. You also sidestep my point on variation and originality in list design.

The Demolisher tank comparison was mildly amusing. Its a terribly overpriced and effectively now useless unit, has a third of the range of the IA, doesn't have its absurd LOS range, doesn't have half as much durability as the RT, is half as fast as it and barely costs less than a Riptide. You then talk about the counters we have; there are only 2 kinds of tank that are decent against the Riptide as I pointed out, only a 300-375+ point Lascannon blob has decent HWT firepower against it, (HWS are useless) tying it up with fearless conscripts is hardly a reliable solution and then we have the Vendetta. Yeah, I guess I can agree with that one.

The whole pointless bit about it being your opinion is perfectly valid, and if that's what you want to believe, fine. I didn't need to be reminded of that.

Overall I think the AM Codex is underpowered but manageable. The existence of Riptides brings it down a peg.

 EVIL INC wrote:
To the OP, You will find that a good many guard players are not out to win every game, they are out to have fun. To many the guard is not about being a superhuman, it calls out to the "average" joe" and reminds us that an individual can make a difference without having to be 8 feet tall and carrying a huge gun. We know it isnt the most competetive army but we simply dont care. At least thats the frame of mind ive seen in most of us guard players anecdotaly.

Not quite ork levels of this, of course, but not a shabby second, either.

I've definitely taken moral victories out of games with guard before. Yes, I lost the game, technically, but I'd like to see how well YOU would have done with this. Or, alternatively, seeing how well you can do with a fluffy, but very questionable guard build. There are lists I've played where I consider it a win if there's still anybody left on the table at the end of the game.

All I basically got from your response was "you use lots of Fliers and planned in the past to take Riptides in your Tau army meaning you are a WAAC type player and therefore your input is invalid". Try again buddy, the fact that you went so far to try and prove me wrong is amusing and I applaud your thoroughness to try and be a dominant internet mouthpiece. sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh

Also you totally took my comment about the tanks out of context, all I stated was the fact that the guard have access to plenty of armor 14 vehicles that can handle a lot of things, this includes MCs. And HWS squads are useless? If you play Imperial Guard I am surprised because last time I checked throwing a bunch of twin linked lascannons or autocannons into something is going to do damage. Maybe you're relying too much on Mathhammer but playing in a competitive environment these things worked for me whenever I face them. but don't mind me, you can keep your elitist attitude and snarky comments because I obviously don't know anything. Sorry to derail the thread I should know better than to feed the trolls.

For the mercy of this thread

I can read between the lines pal, its okay I don't know anything remember?

 gmaleron wrote:
I can read between the lines pal, its okay I don't know anything remember?

When you don't know how to use a comma just put it, in the middle of your sentence and hope for the best.

When near the tail end of a 12 hour graveyard shift grammar tends to fall to the wayside.

a bit late on this - my response to wraithknights - lascannons, 3 squads of 3 getting ordered by CCS will put a dent on it, especially if its not moving and not in cover.
Riptides? Same. Drown then in a metric eff-ton of them

Guard are great when used right. They can field more men, tanks and artillary than anyone but orks.

And las guns may be weak, melta, plasma, laser cannons, auto cannons, leman Russ tanks, weyrans and other artillary can lay down serious pain.

If it's there the guard can take tons of it. Qaunity has a quality of its own.
Think most per legal army one chunk is 3-400 men...

resipsa wrote:
a bit late on this - my response to wraithknights - lascannons, 3 squads of 3 getting ordered by CCS will put a dent on it, especially if its not moving and not in cover.
Riptides? Same. Drown then in a metric eff-ton of them

The problem you'll have is that both Tau and Eldar have plenty of long-range, high strength weapons.

Your Lascannons will just be obliterated by Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannons, Missiles, Serpent Shields, etc.

Also, why isn't the Riptide/Wraithknight moving or in cover? The former can JSJ (and has 72" weapons), and the latter has a 12" jump move (also with long-range weapons).