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 Anpu42 wrote:

So you would have an issue with my 20% GW Guard Army even though everything was painted and WYSIWYG?

Dunno really depends on where we were battling too. I mean if it was in a local club room I probably wouldn't mind as long as they looked the part but I'd probably have a problem if it was say in a proper club because its kind of disrespectful to the group and game. You don't wander around a Nike shoe shop wearing your counterfit 'Mike' shoes

Then again maybe its just that I don't like having to pay full price for gw stuff when someone just prints there stuff out. We must all suffer high prices if we want to play 40k

I'd play against some 3D printed models, mostly because I'm desperate to get ANY games of 40k these days. I'll be honest and say that I would probably not enjoy looking at the army that much, because the quality on most of them are garbage. A vast majority of people couldn't afford a super high quality printer for it anyway, and most models I've seen online are barely passable. I'd rather see proxies most of the time. And that's saying something.

 AtomicEngineer wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

So you would have an issue with my 20% GW Guard Army even though everything was painted and WYSIWYG?

Dunno really depends on where we were battling too. I mean if it was in a local club room I probably wouldn't mind as long as they looked the part but I'd probably have a problem if it was say in a proper club because its kind of disrespectful to the group and game. You don't wander around a Nike shoe shop wearing your counterfit 'Mike' shoes

Then again maybe its just that I don't like having to pay full price for gw stuff when someone just prints there stuff out. We must all suffer high prices if we want to play 40k

Well places that do not want Non-GW Models is what my Space Marine Army fore so it is not that much of an issue.

Funny enough the only time I have an opponent refuse to play me is when I pulled out my old Primer Grey Space Wolves [They were fully based with a 3 color Paint Job] and the guy refused to play me because they were not "Space Wolf Grey" and I would not stop calling them Space Wolves.

I personally have way more issues with "proxy companies", such as Kromlech. And the reason is quite simple: they make money out of it. Their business model consits on copying GW's design and selling proxies. It's legal, and I wouldn't refuse playing anyone using their models, but they are the ones really hurting the company they copy.

CAD is the equivalent of modelling your army with greenstuff, just with the help of a computer and a 3D printer. Anyone designing models for their personal use, that's ok for me.

I think if you can afford a 3d printer, you can instead support your local hobby store and keep the game we love alive.

I generally have no problem with proxies because, maybe you have stuff on order, or it's sitting on your paint table, or you just haven't gotten a chance to buy/convert that model yet - but 3d printing is a different animal to me.

Melevolence wrote:
I'd play against some 3D printed models, mostly because I'm desperate to get ANY games of 40k these days. I'll be honest and say that I would probably not enjoy looking at the army that much, because the quality on most of them are garbage. A vast majority of people couldn't afford a super high quality printer for it anyway, and most models I've seen online are barely passable. I'd rather see proxies most of the time. And that's saying something.

I'm on the same boat.
I haven't played for like two months and I have 25.000 points of models that want to be played.
Hell, I've even allowed an opponent to use a tobacco can as a proxy for a Stompa so I could play a game.

Denying an opponent is a luxury that not everyone can afford.

I did not have time to read every single reply here, so I apologize if I am regurgitating the same thing that others have already said, but..

I look at this situation similar to speeding. I am okay with people that speed only a little. 70 miles per hour in a 65, or 40 in a 35. It's no big deal. I imagine most people do it and don't mind if others do it as well

The problem arises when it starts to become reckless and hazardous. If someone is doing 50 in a 25 or 95 in a 55 mile per hour zone, I think most people would be very upset about being put in danger like that.

3d printing is much the same way. A little bit is fine, printing a single unit, or individual pieces, or even a person starting an army with it while they decide if they like the hobby. These things are not hazardous to the hobby or community.

But imagine if a large amount of people started using armies that were 100% printed. Prices would skyrocket. Kits would be expensive, rules would be even more expensive, which would just further propagate the cycle encouraging more people to print, until eventually there would be either no product at all, or a damaged sub-optimal product.

So in my limited scope of viewing, I would say that it varies from situation to situation, and while there may be a lot of gray in the middle, there is definitely black and white on both ends of the spectrum.

I prefer to play against legit GW models, painted and appropriately based. I am generally a polite human being and do not fuss when people show up to participate in warhammer night with something less than what I prefer. I would never refuse to have fun with someone because they didn't follow my internal preferences.

 Azreal13 wrote:

For the person who already voted "no not at all" have a word with yourself would you?!

Why? because people choose something different than you, or because they have their reason to choose no or, you gonna force them to play when they dont like the idea of printed models? you are the one who should have a word with yourself and your single minded ideas.

This is a question similar when they ask about to play with someone with unpainted models, at the end neither answer is wrong, you are in you right to not play with someone whose printed his model, wheterever the reason, but always give your reasons, even its not nescessary to explain why, but always make it in a respectfully way, never insult and respect the way other choose to enjoy the game and hobby, something a lot of people forget, especially in the forum disciosiones.
Short answer: personally, i dont, because i am more a purist in the terms of models, i accept comversions but not models from others game systems, for me it breaks the ambient of the game and the background, at the end is a question of taste. But hey, that does not stop us to talk and even ask you if you can print the models i desing for the game system of my own creation or apreciate the effort put in the models

Zero problems.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am trying to wrap my head around how some one could be insulted by a 3D Army.
1] It was not cheap.
2] Work had to go into it.
3] If it is painted there was some more work.

It is not like they are bringing out little green army men.
They Put in Time, Money and Work into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtomicEngineer wrote:
I don't know, depends on how accurate it is. I play warhammer to face warhammer armies not copies. If someone has a stand in army of slightly differently looking 3d printed models I wouldn't feel like I was playing 40k. I'd feel like I was playing some alternative game just using the rules.

But I don't like stand in models either much so I guess its a personal preference (even worse when they sub another model in their army so half way through a game you think your charging a lowly unit when actually its 'supposed' to be a demon prince and you get caked)

So you would have an issue with my 20% GW Guard Army even though everything was painted and WYSIWYG?

Yes, for various reasons and variables:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.
2. again, a man save, or even a kid, he cant afford a 3w printed, so he has to save a whole month to buy a new model (i dont going to discuss the fairness of cost, this is a hobby and and the buidget comes from the surplus money) then he takes a couple of weeks to build and paint the model to play with it, then you come and in one single night you get the same model, again you have the advantage of time and money.
3. the same man buy his model from the local store, with that money the stroe affort to keep on business and give a space with tables for people that wants to play, then you come, with nothing buy it from the store and the play there, again, you have the advantage of time money and convenience.
Of course this would cause problems to some and infuriate others , and they are in their right to feel in this way

 anyeri wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am trying to wrap my head around how some one could be insulted by a 3D Army.
1] It was not cheap.
2] Work had to go into it.
3] If it is painted there was some more work.

It is not like they are bringing out little green army men.
They Put in Time, Money and Work into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtomicEngineer wrote:
I don't know, depends on how accurate it is. I play warhammer to face warhammer armies not copies. If someone has a stand in army of slightly differently looking 3d printed models I wouldn't feel like I was playing 40k. I'd feel like I was playing some alternative game just using the rules.

But I don't like stand in models either much so I guess its a personal preference (even worse when they sub another model in their army so half way through a game you think your charging a lowly unit when actually its 'supposed' to be a demon prince and you get caked)

So you would have an issue with my 20% GW Guard Army even though everything was painted and WYSIWYG?

Yes, for various reasons and variables:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.
2. again, a man save, or even a kid, he cant afford a 3w printed, so he has to save a whole month to buy a new model (i dont going to discuss the fairness of cost, this is a hobby and and the buidget comes from the surplus money) then he takes a couple of weeks to build and paint the model to play with it, then you come and in one single night you get the same model, again you have the advantage of time and money.
3. the same man buy his model from the local store, with that money the stroe affort to keep on business and give a space with tables for people that wants to play, then you come, with nothing buy it from the store and the play there, again, you have the advantage of time money and convenience.
Of course this would cause problems to some and infuriate others , and they are in their right to feel in this way

I paid more for my Imperial Guard army than most would and they arent GW models. It would have been way easier and faster to just buy those ugly GW Imperial models instead. Would you hate to play me because of that? With no context beyond that, how can you say its immersion breaking?

Also 3d printing takes ages to design the model, then to print it overnight (it took me 6 hours to assemble my reaver titan, assembling GW models is easy), then he painted it, plus he had to buy a computer, printer and material to print it yet you say its easier? If anything it sounds more fun but stupidly expensive. To get even a GW army it would only take a week to have a 1500 point army assembled and ready to play You cant 3d print an army painted. Ultimately it would take longer to 3d print an army than it would to assemble them.

 anyeri wrote:

Spoiler:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I am trying to wrap my head around how some one could be insulted by a 3D Army.
1] It was not cheap.
2] Work had to go into it.
3] If it is painted there was some more work.

It is not like they are bringing out little green army men.
They Put in Time, Money and Work into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtomicEngineer wrote:
I don't know, depends on how accurate it is. I play warhammer to face warhammer armies not copies. If someone has a stand in army of slightly differently looking 3d printed models I wouldn't feel like I was playing 40k. I'd feel like I was playing some alternative game just using the rules.

But I don't like stand in models either much so I guess its a personal preference (even worse when they sub another model in their army so half way through a game you think your charging a lowly unit when actually its 'supposed' to be a demon prince and you get caked)

So you would have an issue with my 20% GW Guard Army even though everything was painted and WYSIWYG?

Yes, for various reasons and variables:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.
2. again, a man save, or even a kid, he cant afford a 3w printed, so he has to save a whole month to buy a new model (i dont going to discuss the fairness of cost, this is a hobby and and the buidget comes from the surplus money) then he takes a couple of weeks to build and paint the model to play with it, then you come and in one single night you get the same model, again you have the advantage of time and money.
3. the same man buy his model from the local store, with that money the stroe affort to keep on business and give a space with tables for people that wants to play, then you come, with nothing buy it from the store and the play there, again, you have the advantage of time money and convenience.
Of course this would cause problems to some and infuriate others , and they are in their right to feel in this way

1] And if they don't have the Best, they just liked lets say Rough Riders and due to the in ability and looks made an 80% Rough Rider Army of the Printer?
2 &3] They still had to clean them up and paint them. I have been given two armies over the years [Orks and Chaos Marines]. I still have to repair, rebuild and make adjustments to them especially to the 2nd Edition Ork Army, I still worked on them.
As far as the LFGS, I have a physical disability and find it ever difficult to get to my Not-So-FLGS. Most of my Stuff now comes from Amazon and 3rd Party. I did buy a few things form GW, one of them was a Pre-Order Space Wolf Codex that did not get here until after a week after the release that I could have gotten for $20 cheaper on the day of release if I could have made it to a Games Store more than 20 miles away.

For me a 3d Printer is almost a necessity that I have no access to.

 anyeri wrote:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.
2. again, a man save, or even a kid, he cant afford a 3w printed, so he has to save a whole month to buy a new model (i dont going to discuss the fairness of cost, this is a hobby and and the buidget comes from the surplus money) then he takes a couple of weeks to build and paint the model to play with it, then you come and in one single night you get the same model, again you have the advantage of time and money.

You seem to think that building an army is some sort of race.

Someone who has more money than someone else can also build an army faster. Someone who has been collecting for longer will have more models. I'm not really seeing how 'You can build an army faster than someone else' is any sort of reason to not want to play against them.

3. the same man buy his model from the local store, with that money the stroe affort to keep on business and give a space with tables for people that wants to play, then you come, with nothing buy it from the store and the play there, again, you have the advantage of time money and convenience.

Which, of course, only holds true for people who play in stores...

I play against proxies all the time, and those are technically worse because they're not even the correct unit. Heck, I've even played more than one game with a dude who uses star wars minis.

Yes, the ideal is that people would use only nicely converted, beautifully painted GW products, but a vast majority of everybody fails to meet that standard. I don't see why 3D printed stuff, aesthetically, is any different than failing to paint one's models. Well, unless it's a crappy print job.

If anything, I'd prefer a painted print job to a proxy or an unpainted mini. It would be slightly less tacky.

 obleeke wrote:
I personally have way more issues with "proxy companies", such as Kromlech. And the reason is quite simple: they make money out of it. Their business model consits on copying GW's design and selling proxies. It's legal, and I wouldn't refuse playing anyone using their models, but they are the ones really hurting the company they copy.

CAD is the equivalent of modelling your army with greenstuff, just with the help of a computer and a 3D printer. Anyone designing models for their personal use, that's ok for me.

OFC you can look at it from a different perspective too: why do people buy from 3rd party companies instead fo GW? IMO it's usually one of 2 reasons:
-Price. If a 3rd party company manages to offer same quality products at 50-60% of GW price maybe that hints at an issue with GW's pricing policy?
-They offer something GW doesn't. Take Kromlech for example. People don't buy Kromlech orks because they're cheaper (AFAIK they're not), people buy Kromlech orks because they enjoy the WW2 parody aesthetics of the Afrikakorps Orks. Now the ball on this is 100% in GW's court. If people want something it's entirely up to them if they provide it too or they accept the financial loss that comes with people buying what they want elsewhere.

In the end, competition drives a healthy market. If people stop buying for m GW in favor of 3rd party companies is a sign they percieve this companies to offer better value for money than GW.

Unless it looks like utter gak or is absolute cheese (I 3D printed a tesseract!), no problem from me.

For the people placing conditions on the models looking good...

I'd rather play against a semi-reasonable recast/print of a nice model than a 100% genuine version of Canis Wolfborne or the imperial guard pig truck

jesus they're ugly models!

 anyeri wrote:


Yes, for various reasons and variables:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.

Who forces you to print only strongest stuff? If i had access to a 3-d printer, i'd go for something i'd not buy from gw instead. And if it suddenly shows up to be worth it, i'd go for a buy cause GW quality is undoubtfully better than 3-d print. And the chance of me liking the model are higher this way than if i was proxying it with a tin can.

Things depend on a scale too.

Anywayz, if GW had their product at least 2 times cheaper, noone would even bother with 3-d printing and recasting. And don't tell me that they'd not make the same profit this way cause much more people would be buying and production cost is not that high - it's the development cost that is, but it's a constant number that doesn't grow with the ammount of produced models. Maybe the profit lost cause of easy access to alternative models will somehow be a good thing for gw price policy?..

If the 3d printed models aren't direct copies of GW models, I'd say "go for it".
As Counts-as, or custom models similar enough to be identical game-wise, I'm all for it.
But, blatant rip-offs of GW models would be frowned upon. Why make a model that looks the same as a GW model, when the whole point of 3D printers is to enable creativity to hit the table.

 Skinnereal wrote:
If the 3d printed models aren't direct copies of GW models, I'd say "go for it".
As Counts-as, or custom models similar enough to be identical game-wise, I'm all for it.
But, blatant rip-offs of GW models would be frowned upon. Why make a model that looks the same as a GW model, when the whole point of 3D printers is to enable creativity to hit the table.

Wysiwyg. If has to be somewhat recognizable. You don't have to follow GW in every detail, but a Rhino should resemble a rhino and a Leman Russ should look like a Leman Russ, not like a chimera with a bigger turret.

Honestly, a large chunk of GW stock model range is either very plain (rhinos), ugly (bloodthirster), technically unsound (the flying brick of the marines) or all of these combined (taurox). If I were to print these units, I'd add some decoration and change some design features anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Murenius wrote:

 Kosake wrote:
Assumption: In a couple of years when 3D Printers become ubiquitous (a "good" one allready costs merely 300 USD) and of good quality (no layer lines, the resolution is allready almost good enough), 3D printed models will be 90% of what you see. There are a lot of good 3D artists out there who are putting their work up for free. With a community as huge as dakka, I bet there will be more than enough people who will contribute their own unique models GW can't even put a claim to.

From what I got told from inside the 3d printing industry this is not very likely to happen. There are already resin printers which allow higher detail, but it seems to be slower, more expensive in terms of 3d printer technology and printing material, making printing with it less attractive. The "regular" printers seem to have reached a physical barrier in terms of layer lines and z-axis stability. If you want to improve quality with that you're talking of industry scale printers, regarding size, ease of usage and especially price. Paying 3k for a printer will be a barrier for most 40k players. It seems that high detail 3d printers will not be available for prices <1k € within quite some years.

Even if what you say is right - and I am very confident that there will be technical solutions to z-axis stability and layers etc. soon enough - there will still be print-shops with high-grade printers offering a print of your models for cheap. Cheaper than GW models in any case. And cost of "ink" for 3Ds will go down invariably, it's just a question of optimizing the polymers for the intended use and economy of scale.

As long as people don't use big black dildos are proxies, I'm game.

 anyeri wrote:


Yes, for various reasons and variables:
1. you have a only 20% "official" army, the rest is 3d print, and it takes you only one month to get all the models, then you have all the realeases and strongest units, while the other player, whose whole army is gw, have three years in the hobby and its hard to get the recent realeses, and if he gets one new model, he then spend weeks building and paint it to just reach the table top level, you have the advantage of time.
2. again, a man save, or even a kid, he cant afford a 3w printed, so he has to save a whole month to buy a new model (i dont going to discuss the fairness of cost, this is a hobby and and the buidget comes from the surplus money) then he takes a couple of weeks to build and paint the model to play with it, then you come and in one single night you get the same model, again you have the advantage of time and money.
3. the same man buy his model from the local store, with that money the stroe affort to keep on business and give a space with tables for people that wants to play, then you come, with nothing buy it from the store and the play there, again, you have the advantage of time money and convenience.
Of course this would cause problems to some and infuriate others , and they are in their right to feel in this way

But....isn't warhammer a hobby of patience? I thought the whole point was taking your time, building your force and painting them up to a good standard to play. Its not about speed, its not a race to the finish its the ride. Its waiting for the new release, getting it and taking your time to finish it. Having the ability to just sit and watch a computer print out a copy of an official product months in advance takes something away from the fun of going down to your local to pick up your new model.

And not to mention not supporting your local group with buying from there to keep the gaming room running but still showing up with your copy army to use their facility to game is just abit of a dick move.

 AtomicEngineer wrote:
And not to mention not supporting your local group with buying from there to keep the gaming room running but still showing up with your copy army to use their facility to game is just abit of a dick move.

I don't know if I would go that far, but Having part of your Army Printed would be ok in my opinion.

Devil's Advocate:
What if you just moved to the area and showed up with your army bought in your previous Game Store that you were happy with and played without buying any new Models?

 ChazSexington wrote:
As long as people don't use big black dildos are proxies, I'm game.

Unless it's being used as a proxy for a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince.

I would rather they were nicely painted but it doesnt make a huge difference to me, as long as it helps avoid something like this: http://www.tsoalr.com/comics/2003-10-09-012_soda.gif I would be much happier.

At then end of the day I would rather have played and had fun.

For all the people arguing that its illegal to 3d print models for your own use you're 100% wrong.

It would be entirely illegal if that person then turned around and sold them for profit, but for your own use there is nothing in the law preventing you from doing so as the law states that infringement was committed if the material was produced "for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain"

The only other limit is you cant produce any more than $1000 of copyrighted material in 180 days (though if you're cranking out that many CAD models then you have a problem....) (Also there really wouldn't be any way for anyone to track that....)

You don't even have to 3d print them, you could recast models for your own use as long as you stay within those restrictions above.

I'd have zero problem playing against anyone using a 3d print.

Also to all those people throwing around $3000 as a figure for a 3d printer, you're years out of date. You can get a crappy 3d printer now for under $200 if you look around enough, and $500 gets you a pretty decent setup.

Not one that will handle the level of detail on some of the smaller models, but certainly one that can handle angular vehicles and terrain, and thats today. 3d printers are advancing at an astounding pace.

^That brings up a question
What about 3d Terrain?

Terrain is great for 3D printers. Layer-lines aren't a problem when the model is laid horizontally.
Also, detail is usually less than on a person or vehicle.
Buildings would go well. You can printed vents, air-con units, etc.
Hills and things though, scratch-build instead.