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The height difference in those pics looks much more than 2mm!

I think you will have more popular models by sticking with 32-35mm to the eyes at most - that's where the nalifaux model's eyes look to be (35mm) and that's about as large as you can go and still use standard terrain.

Perhaps your sculptor can make the detail deeper / more exaggerated, particularly I the model on the left - those fine line cannot be as shallow on a model this size. The malifaux model is a good reference for this. So, working on the sculpt rather than increasing scale beyond the top of the normal scale would be the most successful way to go, imo.

 ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote:
I think I should clarify the matter a little.

Talking about scale of miniatures is kinda tricky. Saying that game is "32mm scale" is really talking about the size of the base...so as you can see Malifaux model (Malifaux is a 32mm scale game) is actually 40mm tall. Same with new Infinity models.

So our 40mm tall is officiall 32mm scale.

Hope it wil prevent some misunderstandings.

ps.We chose these, not very exciting, poses exactly for the measurements purpose. When we'll have better prototypes we'll make more of this kind of photos.

When has bases size ever been used as a measurement for miniatures scale?

I mean untill GW released their new bases I don't think there were 32mm bases.

While I can understand the eternal debate on if scale should be to the eyes or top of the head, but this makes no sense to me.

 ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote:
I think I should clarify the matter a little.

Talking about scale of miniatures is kinda tricky. Saying that game is "32mm scale" is really talking about the size of the base...so as you can see Malifaux model (Malifaux is a 32mm scale game) is actually 40mm tall. Same with new Infinity models.

So our 40mm tall is officiall 32mm scale.

Hope it wil prevent some misunderstandings.

ps.We chose these, not very exciting, poses exactly for the measurements purpose. When we'll have better prototypes we'll make more of this kind of photos.

Wow... that has never, ever, been the standard for miniature scale, at least west of the Berlin Wall. Who told you that? Is that an eastern Europe convention? From an American/British perspective, it is completely insane, and confusing if you consider all of the 10 and 15mm models out there.

Seriously, I say this in all hopes of benefiting you, the LAST thing you want to do is use a wonky definition of scale. Just about nothing puts people off a Kickstarter or other online purchase than not having it abundantly obvious how big the models are and in what scale. Being in an unusual scale is awkward and hurts sales, but not even knowing if it is the right scale will just kill interest. If you want to define your scale as "Xmm to the eyes of a normal man" or "Xmm to the top of the head of a normal man" that's fine. Bases have nothing to do with it though.

 ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote:
I think I should clarify the matter a little.

Talking about scale of miniatures is kinda tricky. Saying that game is "32mm scale" is really talking about the size of the base...so as you can see Malifaux model (Malifaux is a 32mm scale game) is actually 40mm tall. Same with new Infinity models.

So our 40mm tall is officiall 32mm scale.

Hope it wil prevent some misunderstandings.

ps.We chose these, not very exciting, poses exactly for the measurements purpose. When we'll have better prototypes we'll make more of this kind of photos.

When talking about "scale" (yes I know the word scale is being used incorrectly here) you measure from feet to the miniatures eyes.

http://theminiaturespage.com/ref/scales.html

You don't measure to the top of the head for obvious reasons.

Never ever heard of the scale of the game being references to the base size. Which Malifaux uses 30mm bases (32mm? some say 35?) and Infinity uses 25mm bases (28mm scale)

 ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote:
I think I should clarify the matter a little.

Talking about scale of miniatures is kinda tricky. Saying that game is "32mm scale" is really talking about the size of the base...so as you can see Malifaux model (Malifaux is a 32mm scale game) is actually 40mm tall. Same with new Infinity models.

So our 40mm tall is officiall 32mm scale.

Hope it wil prevent some misunderstandings.

ps.We chose these, not very exciting, poses exactly for the measurements purpose. When we'll have better prototypes we'll make more of this kind of photos.

Yeah, uh.. lol the 28mm, 32mm, etc etc.. NEVER deals with base size. It typically deals with height from base to eye of miniature but some historical (ie. humans only) do measure to the crown of the head. Most sci-fi games go off of eye level though since there might be hats, alien oblong heads, or any number of other weirdness going on above eye level.

EDIT: I just want to make sure you know.. as a miniature manufacturer, you NOT knowing that is more than a little alarming.

Okay guys, I think that's enough piling on about the base comment. Hopefully Shockwork Studio takes the feedback to heart and measures things either to the eyes or the top of the head, so it can be just as confusing as every other miniature manufacturer out there

I'm sure the feedback has been helpful and if you want to comment on the height of the miniatures since they were soliciting feedback on that front, here is the relevant post (measured to the top of the head of the miniatures):

 ShockworkStudio_Michael wrote:
Hi!

we're back with a new big update on our blog. First unit of Black Rain, and it's way from concept art to prototype miniature.

We would like to ask your opinon on the sizes of the miniatures. Below you can see a quick size comparison of our models next to a Malifaux one. Be wary that these are the very first protoypes, printed in not the best quality possible . We just wanted to check the scale and have overall look at the miniatures.



We have prepared two set of sizes of Black Rain minis: 40mm and 42mm. As you can see 40mm matches the size of that Ten Thunder Archer, but 42mm catches detail better and it just feels better(it's easier to glue the model, parts are just more solid). The question is: what would yo rather see? Miniatures that matches the size of most of modern miniatures on the market, or slightly taller, easier to build and paint minis?

Let us know in the comments.

Mike

I commented on this above but it got a bit lost I think - is that really only a difference of 2mm in height between those models, it definitely looks like more than that to me? I think the Malifaux model eyeline is probably right at 35mm, and that's the tallest you should shoot for, imo (at least for humans, but that's really about the limit for a standard model height!).

Sorry, if I made too much of confusion here, maybe it's because I'm not a native speaker.

We have uploaded a photo with Malifaux miniature next to ours(RiTides even reuploaded it). Black Rain standard human will be the size of Malifaux's standard human. If you don't believe my measurements, I suggest grab the ruler and see for yourself.

And that's it for the matter imo. Thanks for the feedback. We'll get back to you with another update on the project.

So I grabbed a set of calipers, my preferred tool for measuring such things, as opposed to a ruler.

The bars a little misleading there. Note that the base line for the models is somewhat under the 10 Thunder's fellows toes, but right at the bottom of of the Black Rain model's feet. The line for 40mm is also above the 10 Thunder's head by a fair bit, and just under the crown of the fellow next to him. Whipping out the calipers, the 40 mm bar is just a hair under 50 mm on my screen. The 10 thunders fellow comes in at 46 mm on my screen, so ~8% off the Black Rain fellow.

Measuring the line labeled 42 mm, I find it to be 55 mm from the base line. The 40 mm line was 50 mm from the base line, so the imputed actual distance of the line labeled 42 mm is 10% more than the 40 mm line, so 44 mm from the base line.

So yea, RiTides, it looks like the difference there is actually 4 mm, not 2 mm. Now, these calipers are just plastic ones, and so might not be entirely perfect, but I have used them for other things successfully, so am fairly confident my measurements are not far off.

When I said, take a ruler and see for yourself, I mean take an actual mini(if you have malifaux or infinity models), not an jpg on the screen. It's not gonna work very well.

But really, I think that in the blog post there were much more interesting things than only "does Mike measure things the right way";]

But it's clear from the image that the models on the right are more than 2mm taller than the ones on the left...

Smaller is better - after all we need to be able to play games with them. The dude with the horns is awesome!

Black Rain standard human will be the size of Malifaux's standard human.

And I'm gonna say it again, we are aiming at the smaller size, to fit the sizes of the current games out there.

This image with sizes is only a sneak peek to the design process. Quick overview, nothing more. Bigger size won't be used, as you clearly stated that you prefer smaller minis. So thank you for all the feedback. We are already working on the 3d models to fit the smaller scale. Once we get them to the right size, and have better protoypes, I'll make sure to prepare professional photos with more miniatures to look at.

Hi everyone

Right now these models are truly prototypes. Even the tall standing pose is meant to check the scale, make sure it's the right size and see what details need change if any and what proportions need fixed.

We printed 2 sets of sizes one closer to "standard" and on a little larger.

After all the feedback we've decided to not go with the larger scale as we've seen this creates issues for other lines as well. Now knowing you'd all prefer the "standard" scale we will begin working on the fixes at this size to ensure the models capture all the detail.

We are grateful for the feedback but would rather this not turn into an issue of scale. I ensure you we will try our best to deliver products you will love to add to you collection and play with.

We will obviously need a large fan base in order to achieve this... That's why we are showing you guys things as we go. The feedback helps steer us in the right direction. So thank you.

So now what do you guys think of the art and cards?

Pardon the constant references to Malifaux, but if you've ever played the first edition of the game, it had the same issues that seem to be in Black Rain's cards.

What sizes are the cards?

From playing Malifaux, they also had those folding unit cards in the first edition. They were rather unpopular because not only did they not fit any proper protector sleeves, but the folding mechanic was a nuisance. With the white hexagons, I assume gameplay will require tracking of wounds for the squad or something like that? Again, Malifaux had something like that which greater necessitated the desire for card sleeves that couldn't be accommodated by the size and the folding.

Additionally, the cards are cluttered with a LOT of text; I'm looking at the data on my computer screen and the text is rather small. This is a huge barrier to entry for players. You can probably save a lot of space and put unit profiles on a single card (front+back) and simply list their abilities, gear, and weapons on separate cards for each. That way, equipment is standardized. You already seem to have some keywords like "Alpha 3" coherency and the unit/weapon/effect type symbols that require checking to the rulebook. As far as I understand, this card holds the rules for every model in a 5-man (or 6-man?) Zhendu squad; it may just be easier for players to look at less text for reference especially because not all the wargear will be taken by the squad at all times.

That sounds great, Shane! Looking forward to seeing a tweaked sculpt later on that shows detail well at the smaller size.

As for your art, that's why I've been paying attention although I couldn't make out too much of the card (on the blog). Will the final version be black and white?

Yes the cards will have very muted tones.
We're not 100% on all the details and layout which is why we are showing things early on.
Any other thoughts on the cards?

I know scale might seem like something you guys would rather not discuss.. but here's the thing.. if you don't understand it or the problems that could come from doing a slightly off scale..
Dystopian Wars is another range that had problems. I absolutely love the way those models look but I won't go near them because they are a few mm too tall to use with my other figures and games. There are a few others out there as well (someone mentioned 1st ed Malifaux having similar issues).
We're not trying to bash you guys or pick a fight.. several of us have been gaming for a long time and have seen models released that we wanted but couldn't really use. Typically, it doesn't go well for the company either. We don't want to see that happen to you. I like the designs and want to be able to use them with 28/32mm models. 40mm is a bridge too far if that's what the above image means and I'll end up passing on these (and feeling bad about it).

Again.. I like the designs, let's just be certain the size is right!

As for the cards..
Easy to read, clear, concise layout. Learn from Magic The Gathering. They've tried all sorts of things and different levels of complication for the cards. Keep it simple is definitely the way to go. The colors.. eh.. it's always cool to see nice art in full color but if it keeps costs down, monochrome could be just fine.

Glad to see that the scale issue is cleared up. It seems silly, but such a thing can really make or break a range of otherwise great models.

That being said, these are really looking fantastic. You've got an awesome aesthetic that isn't really replicated anywhere else in the industry yet. I'll be keeping an eye out for your kickstarter!

Talking about cards:



here you can see how it works. It is a printed prototype. When folded it fits standard Magic the gathering protectors. So when you are playing, you will only need the basic stats and weapons profiles, which will be visible when folded. If you want to check again on the special abilities, they're still there, just take the card out of it's protector. Special abilities are easy to remember, you won't need to to look at them so often as on the stats and weapons.

There are 11 different stats for a model?

I'm guessing this is a smaller scale skirmish game then?

Also like a miniature wargame/RPG thing?

Say, 10 models max to a side?

Yes, exactly. Usual size will be like 8-15 models, depending on the force, and your choices in the army composition.

8-15 is good. The number of stats may or may not be a problem, depending on mechanics.

This is looking very sexy as a proper GITS/Cyberpunk miniature skirmish game. Would 10/10 back as your quality of art and miniatures is way above anything else on the market at the moment if they can be produced in plastic.

Plastic?

That might be a bit of a stretch at this point!

My preference is for lower model count games, so that sounds good. I also like having all of the stats on the card (something I wish Infinity did). I'm still liking the Metal Gear look to everything. How far out are we from release?

If you guys were to release a few early preview models, say, in metal to build up interest, I wouldn't mind snagging a few.

Barzam send us an email (using this adress: shockworkstudio@gmail.com), and we'll figure something out

I cannot say exactly when we'll be releasing these models, as there's still some work for us preparing these guys. Right now I can say this:

We will release them when they will be 100% ready. So you would not be dissapointed, and we could be proud of them.

Ooh. I'll be emailing you guys later once I get home.

I understand that you are scaling against Malifaux - why not the new Inifinty stuff? Infinity is a much closer match in terms of being a SF skirmish game.

Question - why would I play Black Rain vs Infinity?

Please be wary that this scale image was only a preview one. It is not final, as we are still in the process of the prototyping.

JohnHwangDD you can always play both but I know what you mean, and I'll try to explain this as good as possible:

1. Black Rain will focus more on brutal and dynamic combat. EVERY unit have it's own, very special ability, which means: no "points fillers" or "cheerleaders units".

2. No points costs of the units. We are preparing a new army building system, called Echelon System. You will be able to build army faster, with better balance.

3. Tactical Points system. It is something like a global currency that your units can spend to use even more powerful moves. To score TPs you'll need to kill, score critical hits in combat...OR loose your own men. So it's not a system which makes a winner even better as the game continues. Each player will have a chance for a big come back even at the edge of defeat.

4. Learning curve will not be very high. We try to make the basic rules as simple as possible, and work more on the factions themes and hardware instead.

We'll talk more about the gamplay features more in a blog article in the future. Treat everything above as a teaser, as I don't want to spoil everything in one post. Basicly game will be bloody, fast and rewarding. We want to focus more on objectives and missions to expand game's replayability. So it won't be only about "killin stuff".

OK, thanks.