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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yes they do. I do not. The owner is a hypocrite and insulted friends of mine. He is so far up in the clouds, he can't see the ground.

Fair enough.

I don't agree with your choice, but i don't have to, it's not mine and you probably don't care, which is cool.

I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. The friends / playgroup thing I get. But egads, i would try to steer my buds to other venues.

Went to a locale for a while where i pretty much couldn't stand most of the people there (and the feeling was mutual!), but this was before i bought my house and before the new shop i go to opened up so there wasn't much choice. Only other alternative was about a 90 minute ride away at the time, or a shop about an hour away that had exactly two tables, one of which was usually used as the store owners and employees painting table.

I have tried. They are caught up in the cult that is the owner.

I think the key term here is "FLGS". I support local stores as often as I can, but if a store owner is unfriendly / unreasonable / etc, it doesn't make sense to pay massively more than you could otherwise to support them. Unfortunately, our local store has fallen into the "UFLGS" category for some time, and it's surrounded by other high quality stores, to boot. They're reforming somewhat, and to recognize that gesture, I preordered all of my Star Wars Armada items through them... but for a long time it was nearly impossible to support them for the game systems we play (i.e. they refused to stock the items most of us wanted to buy, warmachine/hordes, and if you ordered something they didn't have in stock, would take weeks to get it to you).

So, all that to say, there are two sides to this coin, and they hinge on the store being a place that you want to support, and their providing the opportunity to buy things for the game systems you play. Almost all the stores I have attended have fallen into that category, and even with the one I described above, I have still done my best to support them at times... but customer relations is just that, a relationship, and the store owner should be catering to what the local playerbase wants to buy / play, who then in turn should support their store when possible.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have tried. They are caught up in the cult that is the owner.

Are they the same friends that the owner insulted ?

And also, can you expound on Cult of Personality of the owner ? (this one i ask, because .... i find that i like store owners that are businessmen first, gamers second. My favorite LGS manager around doesn't play mini or card games, just the occasional board game or stuff like Gloom and Werewolf. At the same time, the man has an encylopedic knowledge of what his customers like, don't like, play, don't play, and most importantly... might play. The guys that run shops that spend the first 15 minutes telling me about the highly implausible game results they had with custom made house rules completely ignoring my at turns wincing and then nonplussed facial expressions... not so much).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Even though I can get it cheaper? With no detriment. Not even waiting? And evenot if I hate the owner?

Dude, it's your money, spend it however you choose.

I only believe that, in principle, one should support whatever shop you game at.

BTW, if you don't like the owner / whatever, don't go there. I wouldn't patronize a shop that I didn't like, even if my friends liked it.

I love my FLGS, I've probably spent ~50$ on models per game I've played there. Love to support the local business.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
BTW, if you don't like the owner / whatever, don't go there. I wouldn't patronize a shop that I didn't like, even if my friends liked it.

I totally disagree here - the absolute only reason I attend the store I do now, when I have other high quality stores in range, is that I like the group of gamers who go there. If it closed, they'd be forced to go to one of the other stores, and I'd be set . But for me, my group is the highest priority, so I'm going to game wherever the group does, rather than where I might personally prefer.

 Haight wrote:
i find that i like store owners that are businessmen first, gamers second.

Those would be the successful businessmen who run their business as a business.

The ones opening clubhouses (the ones with lots of open table space) tend to go out of business pretty quickly.
____

 RiTides wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
BTW, if you don't like the owner / whatever, don't go there. I wouldn't patronize a shop that I didn't like, even if my friends liked it.

But for me, my group is the highest priority, so I'm going to game wherever the group does, rather than where I might personally prefer.

Sorry, far be it for me to tell another man how he needs to spend his free time. If you can stomach it, rock on!

 Haight wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I have tried. They are caught up in the cult that is the owner.

Are they the same friends that the owner insulted ?

And also, can you expound on Cult of Personality of the owner ? (this one i ask, because .... i find that i like store owners that are businessmen first, gamers second. My favorite LGS manager around doesn't play mini or card games, just the occasional board game or stuff like Gloom and Werewolf. At the same time, the man has an encylopedic knowledge of what his customers like, don't like, play, don't play, and most importantly... might play. The guys that run shops that spend the first 15 minutes telling me about the highly implausible game results they had with custom made house rules completely ignoring my at turns wincing and then nonplussed facial expressions... not so much).

No to the first.
The reason people like and respect him is he has ran the longest running game store In quite awhile. Ten years. He is able to convince people to do so much. including a kick starter for an expansion which has been delayed by years now. I can go off on him and his store, his guilt tripping, his sabotaging get of products he doesn't like, and several things. But I'm not in the mood

nkelsch wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Thats where the rub comes in. If the store offers you a discount, treats customers good, you WONT want to buy online because you can get the stuff at the store for the same price as online and why wait? Especially if the store is good to you. This will mean that as a side effect, the store will sell more items and have a greater profit at the end of the day.
Huh, whoda thunk it? A win/win for everyone.

The availability of tables does not even factor in. If they have tables, they would have them even if they didnt sell miniatures as they are mainly provided for card players.
You also need to remember that if they have tables, YOU are doing THEM a favor by playing there just as much as they are doing you one by having them as it gives them free advertising and gives them free demo games in order to sell more product. You arent charging them for your services of giving them free advertising and demo games are you?

I like how the Tick rationalizes why the dog needs him... Claiming the tables are 'there anyways' so unpaying customers have a right to them is absurd and why wargammers are losing out to card gamers and being banished to Tuesday night opposed to open gaming on weekends... because they don't pull their weight.

And you are not doing anyone a favor with your 'my existence contributes! You should pay me to game here!'

You would be better to admit you are a souless mooch and a deadbeat like hotsauce than do disingenuous back-flips of logic to justify why you are morally entitled to be a mooch.

Just a suggestion. The insulting tone of your post does you no favors just as the insulting name calling does not. Being civil and polite goes a lot further in terms of maintaining a civil and courteous conversation. But I am not a mod and think they can do their job so will not try to do it for them. Just offering that up as a tip from one friend to another. On to the topic at hand....

No one is saying that unpaying customers are the ole users of the tables. Honestly, have many decades have you been playing the game? In all of these years, have you never once (not even a single time) se people wander in just to look around and stop by your table to comment on how well your army was painted? Or asked you questions about the game or anything of that nature? This is what is generally called free advertising and while the people are looking at your stuff and asking you questions, the store owner is able to attend to other customers. Likewise, the store is more likely to make a sale off that person because it is a "player" talking the game up instead of the "store owner pushing it to make a sale".No one is saying the store should pay you for that service. Bringing it up and acting as though someone did is a strawman argument.
I only pointed out that the street goes both ways.

Tics and dogs.. You will have to explain that analogy because in this conversation, there are no animals unless you count us as human beings and the fact that the cavelry models or whatnot are animal model representations. Unless of course you are referring to the store as being a the dog and customers as being the ticks. Normally, I would assume that that is what you meant but I think you are much more intelligent than that and would never use that analogy as it would be demeaning to you. This because it would be referring to all customers as ticks or bloodsucking parasites. Do you consider yourself that when you make a purchase? Or when you go to the grocery store to buy food for your family? How about the store itself when it buys from a distributer and shops around to find which distributer offers them the greatest discount? How about your employer when they hire employees who will work for the least amount of money?

What store do you game at that you are not allowed to play on weekends? Surely that would be an anecdotal instance because in my own anecdotal examples i could give, it would be yugio on thursdays, MTG on fridays, warhammer/40k on wedsndays and weekends being whatever event happens to be held. Usully us games and paying customers deciding that based on what events we want to organize and run for the shop. Of course, this does not mean MTG players cant play on wed or thurs or wargamers cant play on thurs or fri. But all customers "carry their weight" as we all purchase from the store and contribute in non-purchase ways as well.

Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how making purchases from a store and then playing there with my "toys" afterwards helping the store make further sales is being a "souless mooch doing backflips".

I think a customer SHOULD buy what they are able to from the store they play at. Likewise, i also think that if you are running a store, you should have some sort of economic experience and training to understand the basic principles of.
1. customer service- reating people with dignity and respect
2. economs nd math understanding that by selling at a discount, you sell in greater volume (almost exponentially) so that your end profit is much greater.

Again, the end result is that both the customer and seller can work together where BOTH can maximize both their ''bang for their buck" and "end profit" respectively.

But here is one thing, he used to have a loyalty program, but is now bringing it back, at 300$ buy in, with no benefits known of yet.

Way I see it, buying from your FLGS is like buying drinks at your local bar. Sure, I'm paying 2-3 times more for beer at the bar than I would if I sat and drank at home, but the benefit of atmosphere/shared space with friends and such (sometimes) outweighs the added cost.

Pity it's too dark to paint there.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But here is one thing, he used to have a loyalty program, but is now bringing it back, at 300$ buy in, with no benefits known of yet.

... has to be SOME benefit... i mean, no one in their right mind forks over 300 bucks for nothing in a game store. Whoever this guy is, he's not Jim Jones. Though, on the safe side, avoid any free proffered cool aid at his store.

 Haight wrote:
I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .

What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.

Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.

It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Haight wrote:
I just wanted to wrap my head around why you'd go to a store owned by someone you dislike. .

What makes disliking the owner a reason to not go to the store? His opinion of the owner doesn't change the existence of tables to play on, or put different stock on the shelves.

Well, for one, there's other stores. My buds and I, if one of us HATED someone at a store, we'd go elsewhere.


Two... i'm 35. Conflict for it's own sake is in my rearview mirror. Once upon a time i'd have gone to every tournament the guy had and did my damnedst to win it, and shown up with models i didn't buy from him. .

And then I got to a point where i realized i was the only one taking note of all this caustic activity.


At the risk of going all deep thoughts... spending energy on hating someone is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.



EDIT: line two should have had "from him" at the end,

Because absolutely nobody does it. None. Not the 'Mom & Pop' stores to the national retailers like Wal-Mart. If one store did, no one would shop there because everyone would think that's the retail price without taxes. That is the norm in the United States.

EDIT: Nevermind.

Ask mikhaila how he feels about discounts. I don't ask my FLGS owner for discounts, just like I don't ask for a discount from my grocery store, convenence store, or any other retail store I shop at. If your FLGS offers you a discount freely, then that's his/her business decision and hopefully they've done their due diligence on how that impacts their ability to stay in business.

In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can? I get its very hard at a national chain, but a local store the worst then can say is no. Hell, not negotiating cost/price on things you can is just throwing money away. I am honestly interested not trying to be a dick.


Out of curiosity is it not the norm for people to pay for table time? One store a bit farther from me charges $5 for the day but its in store credit.

 Ghaz wrote:
That is the norm in the United States.

Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dameanone wrote:
In our service driven economy you don't ask for discounts where you can?

Most people won't ask for a discount, no.

If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.

Out of curiosity is it not the norm for people to pay for table time?

Some places do. Most (from my experience) don't.

It's a somewhat divisive topic. Some players are totally ok with the idea, some will flat-out refuse to pay for a table.


To my mind, the best middle ground is for stores to push organised play as much as possible. Allow free use of the tables when there is no event running, but use as many tournies, campaigns, leagues, classes, etc as you can schedule in to actually pay for the table space.

If you want my business, put the actual price you want me to pay on your goods. If the price you will accept is lower than your ticket price, then you should have put that lower price on there to start with. Don't waste my time with price negotiations.

See I get that for piecemeal things. But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks? Maybe I am missing the point too much. If you mean just basic retail items sure, but negotiation happens in all forms of business.

 dameanone wrote:
But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?

Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?

...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.

I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That is the norm in the United States.

Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.

Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.

Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.

It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.

It's about transparency. Everywhere you go in Oz, you know that you're going to pay sales tax no matter what. So, it doesn't matter to you. You're desensitized to the tax. In America, you can literally cross an invisible line (or purchase two different items in the same store), and you'll pay no tax. So, an item I buy in County A may be taxed at 8%. If I drive a few more minutes, County B may offer that same item at no tax. County B probably wants you to know this. I know what the item costs without tax, so I can make a fair comparison on cost.

VAT is an invisible tax and to my mind as a Yank, seems an underhanded way to tax a citizen.

 insaniak wrote:

 dameanone wrote:
But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?

Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?

...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.

I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.

I agree. I see the process of getting estimates and going with that can do the best job at the lowest price as a form of negotiations.
You shouldnt have to go into a store and ask for a discount. I go into the different stores and see for myself which has discounts and go with the ones with the owest prices combined with the best customer service (those are also where I will play as to me it doesnt make sense to buy at one store and play in a different one.
Natural selection handles it all eventually anyways. I've seen stores go out of business because they refused to offer discounts/gaming areas and had poor customer service and i have seen stores go out of business because they went too far in the other direction. The ones that prosper find the happy medium where both the store and the customer get what they want, the highest possible number on their respective bottom line. The whole "store vs customer" argument causes both to lose at the outset. What should be debated is "how can we BOTH win?"

Squidmanlolz, Love your sig picture. Suddenly i want to see a Commissar Cain movie starring him lol.

 insaniak wrote:

 dameanone wrote:
But, a plumber comes to your house quotes you $500 for a repair you just say oh ok cool here is $500 thanks?

Uh... yes? If that's his price, then why would I expect to get it for anything different?

...but negotiation happens in all forms of business.

I get that it does happen. I just have no interest in it. I'm going to go with whoever offers me the better deal with the least amount of work on my part.

Tend to agree. I have no interest in dealing with the process, or negotiating prices at all.

The only exception is when I am spending a lot of money (not talking about plumbers here...). When I routinely made large miniature orders, I would take my list to the store - and tell them how much I was going to pay. It wasn't a negotiating. I knew (roughly) what he paid, I knew what I thought was a fair profit on the transaction. I had no interest in arguing the issue. If they said no - I left. There are more than enough companies who will take the deal. You would be surprised how many of them changed their mind before I made it to the door.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

Because sales tax vary from state to state. Some cities even have an additional sales tax on top of the state tax.

Which explains why the amount you're handing over at the register varies from place to place.

It doesn't explain why the price tag on the item in front of you doesn't have the actual price you're about to pay on it.

It's about transparency. Everywhere you go in Oz, you know that you're going to pay sales tax no matter what. So, it doesn't matter to you. You're desensitized to the tax. In America, you can literally cross an invisible line (or purchase two different items in the same store), and you'll pay no tax. So, an item I buy in County A may be taxed at 8%. If I drive a few more minutes, County B may offer that same item at no tax. County B probably wants you to know this. I know what the item costs without tax, so I can make a fair comparison on cost.

VAT is an invisible tax and to my mind as a Yank, seems an underhanded way to tax a citizen.

And I much prefer seeing the tax (well, don't like seeing it - but...you know). Personally though, I would much prefer to see the taxes made even more transparent. Go to fill up with gas...$10 worth of gas, $10 worth of taxes. Buy a 6 pack of beer to watch the game...$3 in beer, $1 in exise taxes, $0.5 sales tax... It would help people better understand just how often the government is reaching into their wallets.

nkelsch wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
. They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere. I still don't see how me spending money I worked for at the places with the best prices can be equated to people who sit on the couch all day, eat everything in baby mommas fridge and sell dime bags on the corner to go buy king cobra and black n milds.

But... you are not an actual customer... So taking your money 'elsewhere' is an empty threat because you are ALREADY shopping elsewhere. And you would pay 5$ for table usage but not 5$ on product markup? I declare shenanigans on your attitude that you actually would be ok with a pay to play model.

You are basically using "services" without contributing to them and acting like you are entitled to those services that are supported by other people. Exactly the attitude of your fictional (and somewhat bigoted) caricature of the people you claim to support with your taxes.

Essentially the other people who 'pay where they pay' are taxpayers and you are the welfare queen getting a free place to game without contributing to society or paying taxes.

I would be a customer if the price was even somewhat competitive. I spend around $100 when I make a purchase, that's a lot more than a $5 markup. We've all done the math, it's nearly a $40 difference on a $100 purchase. I would be paying 57% more for the same product. I have a realm of battle table. All of my friends have terrain . We call each other and meet at the store anyway. If I get banned from the store (which the owner has already said he won't do. He wants people to come in, play and have fun even if they aren't buying, it makes the other people in the store more likely to try/buy whatever game we're playing) I will have the games at my house with the same people and nicer looking terrain. We just prefer the social aspect of the store and the owner enjoys having us. We've gotten a lot of new people into WMH who are too impatient to order online. They buy everything at the shop so they can build it and start testing it out.

 Ghaz wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
That is the norm in the United States.

Yes, we get that. The question was 'Why?'... because to those of us from places where the price on the shelf is the price you pay, it seems a really awkward and un-customer-friendly practice.

Because that's the way its always been and it teaches Little Timmy to do percentages to figure out if he has enough cash if he wants to buy something. Its probably because there's no law dictating that the advertised price include sales tax on anything (other than gasoline) and some charitable organizations (churches, etc.) are tax-exempt. Absolutely no one here finds it awkward or an unfriendly practice to the customer, its just the way the world works.

I lived in the states for a while and I found it annoying, I mentioned it to my American friends and their response was basically "that's just the way it works... but you're right it'd be better if they just told you what you were going to pay". It also wasn't consistent, some places DID list the price including tax, other places didn't.

It's probably less annoying when you pay everything by card, because whatever it just goes on your card. It's more annoying when you are paying things in cash. It would be nice if they listed both price with and without tax, but if it's one or the other I'd prefer with tax.

But anyway, I'm not really sure what this has to do with the original topic because I came in to this conversation late

As for the original topic, I don't really think I should feel compelled to try and uphold the business practices of my FLGS. If they find they aren't making money off their tables it's up to them to change their business practices to make it profitable, not up to me to support it. Relying on your customer to feel compelled to buy things to use the tables is IMO a bad business practice.

My discount game outlet is annexed to my FLGS, so I have the best of both worlds.

Long live NWGC! Long live Element Games!