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Bharring wrote: This thread is about Blade storm. In particular, the current parts are about Guardians vs Guardsmen.
The other relevant part could be twin linking Cannons. Basically, one extra shot each round. With only a 1/6 chance to rend. A twin linked bs4 shuriken cannon is nearly as good against infantry and still much worse against armor than an Assault Cannon.
It's hard to look at blade storm in a vacuum. It's hard to keep threads like these on track because of all the problems with Eldar in 6/7th ed. Eldar units are functionally superior to the sum of their parts. Imperial units have a tendency to be functionally worse than the sum of their parts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 15:46:31
So SL is +12 inches. nice.
ACAPs 4+ saves, and rends.
Against GEQ, AC denies their save
Against MEQ and TEQ, AC rends about once every other round
Against light vehicles (AV10-11), AC = SL Against mid vehicles (AV12), AC pens where SL glances.
Against heavy vehicles (AV13+), AC can still pen, SL cannot.
(AC actually outperforms Lascannons vs AV14, if you're not looking to explodes)
For 12" range, that's a lot of wins in the AC category.
Or did you want to compare it to the ShuriKanon? One more shot, ap4 vs ap5, actual-rending vs only-infantry. Same range.
Assault Cannon is an amazing weapon.
You're right.
Well, you've taken a Scatter Laser on your Guardians, so I'll counter by taking an assault cannon in my IG Infantry Squad. Oh... wait...
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
So SL is +12 inches. nice.
ACAPs 4+ saves, and rends.
Against GEQ, AC denies their save
Against MEQ and TEQ, AC rends about once every other round
Against light vehicles (AV10-11), AC = SL Against mid vehicles (AV12), AC pens where SL glances.
Against heavy vehicles (AV13+), AC can still pen, SL cannot.
(AC actually outperforms Lascannons vs AV14, if you're not looking to explodes)
For 12" range, that's a lot of wins in the AC category.
Or did you want to compare it to the ShuriKanon? One more shot, ap4 vs ap5, actual-rending vs only-infantry. Same range.
Assault Cannon is an amazing weapon.
You're right.
Well, you've taken a Scatter Laser on your Guardians, so I'll counter by taking an assault cannon in my IG Infantry Squad. Oh... wait...
Possibly something of an aside, but one thing that really depresses me is the sheer variety of weapons Eldar get, whilst DE are basically stuck with 'lances', 'poison', 'more lances' and 'more poison'.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
That's why I didn't include it orignally. I was asked to write that one up.
Im not really sure what heavy weapons are available where in IG armies. I was just comparing Eldar heavy weapons with Imperial heavy weapons. Originally left out the Assault Cannon because it seemed too rare.
vipoid wrote: Possibly something of an aside, but one thing that really depresses me is the sheer variety of weapons Eldar get, whilst DE are basically stuck with 'lances', 'poison', 'more lances' and 'more poison'.
Yeah, the DE get the shaft for sure. Much worse than IoM. No argument here. But I'd say that both IoM and DE have popguns compared to Eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: That's why I didn't include it orignally. I was asked to write that one up.
Im not really sure what heavy weapons are available where in IG armies. I was just comparing Eldar heavy weapons with Imperial heavy weapons. Originally left out the Assault Cannon because it seemed too rare.
Yeah. Rare, indeed. Because it's overcosted and almost every platform that can take it has a fatal flaw. As an imperial player, I'd take SL over almost anything in my arsenal and then have other plans for anything I can spam down with S6.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/02 15:56:55
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?
blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Rending is only good on large numbers of dice. Rending is a crap rule on assault cannons, since the Imperium can't mass them up.
This is very true. Rending on a single 4 shot weapon is about equal to useless - when you stick it on a volume of fire of 20 and bs4 9 point units...now you have a sqaud thats about as effective or in a lot of cases more effective as plasmaguns vs heavy infantry. It's not hard to understand that rending requires volume of fire to be effective.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
vipoid wrote: Possibly something of an aside, but one thing that really depresses me is the sheer variety of weapons Eldar get, whilst DE are basically stuck with 'lances', 'poison', 'more lances' and 'more poison'.
I never understood why the DE never had more blast template weapons. For units that move fast and are hard hitting, you think they would have more bombs, or indirect-fire weapons; hell biological warfare seems right up their alley with being able to deny maneuvering options.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?
blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Rending is only good on large numbers of dice. Rending is a crap rule on assault cannons, since the Imperium can't mass them up.
This is very true. Rending on a single 4 shot weapon is about equal to useless - when you stick it on a volume of fire of 20 and bs4 9 point units...now you have a sqaud thats about as effective or in a lot of cases more effective as plasmaguns vs heavy infantry. It's not hard to understand that rending requires volume of fire to be effective.
Tell that to the teeming hordes who don't understand why I hate the assault cannon.
Bharring wrote: If we're talking IG squad or Tac Marines versus Guardians or Dire Avengers, I call bull.
If we aren't comparing to Bladestorm platforms, not sure this is the thread for it.
As I said, you can't talk about Bladestorm in a vacuum. See, Bladestorm mostly comes into play AFTER people have trudged through all the other Eldar tricks. Bladestorm is the final insult before we get to assault the space elves. And is usually enough to finish off weakened squads.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 15:59:24
OP, can you please change the title of this thread to "This Week's Eldar Complaint Thread"?
Seriously, though, Bladestorm is not going anywhere. GW just reprinted it in the Harlequin Codex. More likely is that the Wave Serpent and Battle Focus get the nerf bat, and DAs get a point increase.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?
blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Rending is only good on large numbers of dice. Rending is a crap rule on assault cannons, since the Imperium can't mass them up.
This is very true. Rending on a single 4 shot weapon is about equal to useless - when you stick it on a volume of fire of 20 and bs4 9 point units...now you have a sqaud thats about as effective or in a lot of cases more effective as plasmaguns vs heavy infantry. It's not hard to understand that rending requires volume of fire to be effective.
Tell that to the teeming hordes who don't understand why I hate the assault cannon.
I don't think you should hate assault cannons. When I take 3 Storm Talons they do their job quite well. You just can't get enough of them for cheap enough unless you spam storm talons. Their cost should be reduced on everything! considering the 24" nonsense.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Asmodas wrote: OP, can you please change the title of this thread to "This Week's Eldar Complaint Thread"?
Seriously, though, Bladestorm is not going anywhere. GW just reprinted it in the Harlequin Codex. More likely is that the Wave Serpent and Battle Focus get the nerf bat, and DAs get a point increase.
As I said, Bladestorm is not in a vacuum so it's hard for me to say just how strong it is. This idea seems fine to me.
ClockworkZion wrote: I'm curious, how does Bladestorm stack up vs. Crons compared to other weapons like Bolters?
blade storm is worthless vs wraiths but serpents are EXCELLENT vs them. Probably the only army that has no trouble bringing them down. Vs immortals and warriors - it's still probably the best you can hope for from a cheap weapon. Rending IMO is one of the more powerful abilities in the game.
Rending is only good on large numbers of dice. Rending is a crap rule on assault cannons, since the Imperium can't mass them up.
This is very true. Rending on a single 4 shot weapon is about equal to useless - when you stick it on a volume of fire of 20 and bs4 9 point units...now you have a sqaud thats about as effective or in a lot of cases more effective as plasmaguns vs heavy infantry. It's not hard to understand that rending requires volume of fire to be effective.
Tell that to the teeming hordes who don't understand why I hate the assault cannon.
I don't think you should hate assault cannons. When I take 3 Storm Talons they do their job quite well. You just can't get enough of them for cheap enough unless you spam storm talons. Their cost should be reduced on everything! considering the 24" nonsense.
I seem to be lacking this piece of equipment in my codex. I'm sticking with hating assault cannons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 16:03:24
It's impossible to deconvolute. Bladestorm is indeed OP as the Eldar codex is currently constituted. It's just another synergy on top of other synergies. Take away some of the Eldar's tricks, and it might become fair. Give the Eldar a reason to field units on foot, and T3 4+ might become a thing. But as it stands now, Bladestorm is too much and T3 4+ might as well not exist.
Bharring wrote: How would t4 3+ armies having guns just as strong as t3 4+ guys that cost the same in any way be balanced?
Well, I never get to shoot at T3 4+ guys, so there's that.
Do we really have to go through this unit vs unit comparison?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
He was saying that bladestorm never matters until after the game is lost. Everything else is just stupid good.
So, for clarification, isn't it reasonable to suppose that the problems he has are everything else, not Bladestorm?
DAs do *not* cost less than CSMs. They cost 1ppm less than Loyalists, but they get ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics.
So, you could say they cost less than Loyalist marines, but I think its fair to say they cost the same as Marines.
The Assault Cannon is derailing this thread, too. Its rarety was why it wasn't in the original writeup. It was written up at someone's request.
This thread is *supposed* to be about Bladestorm.
How bout this: For 1ppm, should naked Loyalist Marines be able to beat Dire Avengers in *all* circumstances?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 16:17:28
Bladestorm is a major obstacle in making 2+ armor economically viable in the game. But I really don't use 2+ armor anyway. Because it sucks against things other than Bladestorm, but maybe not quite as badly. Maybe a Deathwing player should chime in.
Loyalist marines are a strange case again of the whole being less than the sum of its parts.
Most chapter tactics don't matter. Most of the time, ATSKNF doesn't matter. Most of the time, frag grenades don't matter. Most of the time, krak greandes don't matter. Most of the time, bolters can't inflict significant damage on my foe. And against Eldar, most of the time turns into none of time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 16:20:32
He was saying that bladestorm never matters until after the game is lost. Everything else is just stupid good.
So, for clarification, isn't it reasonable to suppose that the problems he has are everything else, not Bladestorm?
DAs do *not* cost less than CSMs. They cost 1ppm less than Loyalists, but they get ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics.
So, you could say they cost less than Loyalist marines, but I think its fair to say they cost the same as Marines.
The Assault Cannon is derailing this thread, too. Its rarety was why it wasn't in the original writeup. It was written up at someone's request.
This thread is *supposed* to be about Bladestorm.
How bout this: For 1ppm, should naked Loyalist Marines be able to beat Dire Avengers in *all* circumstances?
Ooooh are we talking DA? I thought we were talking Guardians this way we compare the most basic of the basic. If we start talking DA it gets a little.... testy, because we all know the reason someone takes DA.
Bharring wrote: A S4 ap5 round is *twice* as likely to kill a Dire Avenger than a Marine.
Naked CSMTac squad vs DAs - same points.
18"+, CSM destroy DAs 12-18", Rends give DA an edge
0-12", CSM destroy DAs Melee, CSM destroy DAs.
Without bladestorm, DAs tie CSM at 12-18".
And that's naked CSM, which cost the same. And are widely considered crap.
DAs should be able to kill CSM under *some* conditions. So flat-out removing Blade storm is rough.
So let's look at Termies.
Tac Termies kill twice as many DAs as Marines at range. While dying about twice as fast as to boltguns. With an extra 6" range. And destroy DAs in melee even more than Tac marines. And can threaten just about anything in melee, especially vehicles.
TH/SS Termies. Die a little faster to DAs than Boltguns, but not much. And thump even more in melee than Tac Termies.
Tides and such:
T6 2+/5++
DA: (2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 2/27 wounds/shot
Marines: (2/3)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/54 wounds/shot. Yay? But, from a 10-man:
DAs get 1.48 wounds/round
Marines get 0.37 wounds/round.
Melee:
DAs: (1/2)(1/6)(1/6) = 1/72
Marines: (1/2)(1/2)(1/6) = 1/24
DAs do more shooting but less melee for the same points, sure, but neither is effective.
Now, vehicles. Against AV10 at range, its the same. Against AV11/12, Marines have a small chance (2/3)(1/3) to hurt it.
But in melee:
DAs: (0) HP/round
Marines: (2/3)(1/2) = 1/3.
So, again, 10-man vs 10-man, DAs can't hope, CSMs get 3.3... HP, or enough to hull most vehicles.
Bladestorm is good, but its not *that* good.
And the AC comparison? That's a s6 ap4 weapon base. S4ap5 not-real-rending is absurdly worse.
And Guardians? Their guns are basically a way of holding a point. Saying 'come close and I'll bite you'. If they're a threat, try shooting them? Like, with boltguns? They die *four times* as quickly to Boltguns as Marines. So they'll only get in range if you approach them without hurting them, if you ignore them as they approach, or if they have a dedicated Cheese Serpent. Then, they do a little more than their points of any other troops, but they should if they get the drop on you with 12" guns.
All that said, I wouldn't be adverse to:
- Stripping it from Guardians and dropping their WS/BS, provided their points were adjusted (heck, I've suggested removing battle focus, too, in my Eldar suggestions)
-Removing it from ShuriKannons, for consistency if its removed from basic shiriCats
-Possibly replace it on DAs with to-hit-of-6-autowounds. Seems more fluffy than the pseudo-rending.
Alternately, make it AP3.
that said, just removing it would be a hard kick in the groin. How often do you see 9ppm Fire Warriors carrying their Assault2 18" s5 pinning carbines? Never. 18" is short. And Battle focus doesn't come close to closing the additional 6" most infantry get.
One of our tau players uses the pinning carbines religiously, because pinning is GOOD. He uses a more mobile tau methodology to make it work, and I actually enjoy playing against it, as opposed to most tau armies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/02 16:34:38
@Bharring, lets just trade then... All my SM tacticals get Dire weapons and options, and all of your Dires take Bolters and SM heavies... shouldn't matter... since they're roughly equal in your opinion. You're weaker, but get more movement and are faster in combat... should be just fine.
I'd take this trade any day and twice on Sunday... how are the Eldar doing on your end?
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
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So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?
I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.
(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).
I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/02 17:26:13
As has been stated, the only REALLY hard complaint against eldar is their serpents, and to a lesser extent the scatter laser.
When I reworked the math for the V.D.R., I noticed that the fewer options an army had for chassis design, the cheaper the guns were, especially when the vehicles had to take expensive upgrades like skimmer, or had to have terrible armor like war walkers. Just my $.02
Bharring wrote: So I die twice as fast as Marines to boltgun wounds, *and* Marines get the harder-hitting gun? Wtf?
I'm not arguing that the Boltgun is better than the Avenger Shuriken Catapult.
(That said, boltgun + battle focus vs 18" range means I get a *lot* of rounds of shooting before Marines ever get in range. So it wouldn't be a complete loss).
I'm arguing that, if the DA gun were outright worse, DAs would be outright worse than Marines. They pay a lot of points for that gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T3 -> T4 is huge
4+ -> 3+ is huge
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Lobukia,
In what situations should Marines be able to beat DAs? In what situations, if any, should DAs be able to beat Marines?
You are wrong t3 compared to t4 is quite insignificant when you compare the cost of t4 to t3. If i could take all my marines for less points at t3 I would, In a heartbeat.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
20000+ points
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0