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Paddlepop Lion wrote:
Evil lamp you probably want to pick a better example because i could quite honestly beat people consistently with that list in the metagame that CC creates.
Its not so good that you would smash people well enough to justify spending that many credits on raiders but lists like that are bad for a comp Metagame. You actually want to discorrage that kind of army because its too polarising. Players who cant deal with land raiders probably get thier ass kicked pretty often and ones that kill them easily smash it off the table.
Our aim is to have a situation where a player can always look across the table and feel like they have at least a chance to win and ridiculous spam like this goes against that.

I shudder thinking about what lists actually do get played in this comp then. That list was terrible. Aside from the Assault Terminator Squad (with Lightning Claws as opposed to TH/SS!) the Land Raiders are empty. How threatening are empty Land Raiders?!? They are maybe putting a couple of Lascannon shots and Heavy Bolter shots downrange each? And what exactly is going to win the game here, the 3 squads of Tactical Marines in Rhinos? Again I shudder to think that that list would stand a snowball's chance in hell of actually winning in the meta created by this comp. I'm honestly surprised someone doesn't run a good 20/20 comp list and just trounce everyone if lists like that SM one have a fething chance! Please tell me how people are getting their asses kicked by Land Raiders?

That list was garbage. Empty Land Raiders, for their points, are terribly, disastrously bad units.

Empty, for their firepower and armor, they ought to cost in the region of 150ish points, maybe 175 for BS4 and twin-linked on its guns. AV14 just doesn't cut it anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I noticed you cannot field an Adamantium Lance as it would be 21 points.

Why not just ban it?

Wait, three empty land raiders is threatening?

Jsut pop 'em open with a meltagun...

... I think even those Priests with the Eviscerators might be able to walk up the field and tear the Land Raiders open.

So I'm curious as to thoughts on this list.

Tyranids CAD, 1840/1850 points

Old One Eye (Warlord)
Haruspex
Haruspex
Haruspex
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Carnifex Brood (2 fexes)
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex Brood

I'm thinking it must be good because it costs more than 21 credits, so my tournament points and % available are somewhere in the negatives.

I shudder thinking about what lists actually do get played in this comp then. That list was terrible. Aside from the Assault Terminator Squad (with Lightning Claws as opposed to TH/SS!) the Land Raiders are empty. How threatening are empty Land Raiders?!? They are maybe putting a couple of Lascannon shots and Heavy Bolter shots downrange each? And what exactly is going to win the game here, the 3 squads of Tactical Marines in Rhinos? Again I shudder to think that that list would stand a snowball's chance in hell of actually winning in the meta created by this comp. I'm honestly surprised someone doesn't run a good 20/20 comp list and just trounce everyone if lists like that SM one have a fething chance! Please tell me how people are getting their asses kicked by Land Raiders?

well they arent that threatening but they arent empy eaither. The tac marines obviously go in them which opens up some pretty interesting tricks.

I know its a differnt kettle of fish entirely to compare the tactics of this army but the fundimentals are still there.

We played in our ATC team for victoria during 6th a dark angels bolter banner list which was something liek this.

Libby termninator
Command squad banner power weapons and FNP

10 scouts
10 scouts
10 tac marines

Death wing crusader raider
Death wing crusader raider
Death wing crusader raider

Fortress of redemption.

So there was quite a lot of tricks with how you used the infantry inside there. You could get them all out and make a circle around them with land raiders and shoot out of a gap at soemthing then when it came time to return fire they couldnt see the infantry.
The small number of power weapons in there was actually huge when the opponent couldnt really kill the raiders, You could charge a unit with them and then turbo boos a raider to cover the unit when it broke out of combat so the enemy couldnt shoot them and you couild set up another assault.


Obviously the list has a prtetty glaring weakness which is infantry, gauss and meltas right.
You pretty mich auto lose to necrons that cant be escaped but even a drop pod list doesnt necessarily get you and shooting the rhino that has some meltas in them so you can assault that unit with tac marines before they melt your raider isnt hard.
8 Tl lascannons an 4 TL heavy bolters when focused will kill stuff and with the shooting from the marines inside i think i could punch the crap out of every non necron scrub at an event and beat up pretty convincingly any good player who didnt have several good units for killing raiders.

Also, I noticed you cannot field an Adamantium Lance as it would be 21 points.

Why not just ban it?

Well we really hate banning stuff and some members of the council while they agreed that ad lance has no place in comp they wanted to avoid using the word banned. I was for it but i was out voted,its no big deal.

So I'm curious as to thoughts on this list.

Tyranids CAD, 1840/1850 points

Old One Eye (Warlord)
Haruspex
Haruspex
Haruspex
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Carnifex Brood (2 fexes)
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex Brood

I'm thinking it must be good because it costs more than 21 credits, so my tournament points and % available are somewhere in the negatives.

The list is actually impossible for alot of armies to handle. think about the poor space marine player with 30 tacticals. what does he have to do to deal with 3 dimacrons let alone the other MCS running in behind them?
But then you play against Tau or Grey knights and your screwed.
No the list isnt good to bring to a tournament because you will certainly play someone who will smash you but think of poor little timmy who took heaps of necron warriors because last event he had to play against a 4 land raider list and got smashed.

We want to avoid people from meeting thier opponent at the table then having no way they can see to beat the army. Spam ruins that and thats why spamming things costs Cumulative scores and gets more expensive than its worth. to discorrage exactly the kind of crap these lists are.

well they arent that threatening but they arent empy eaither. The tac marines obviously go in them which opens up some pretty interesting tricks.

Denying killpoints is a trick?

We played in our ATC team for victoria during 6th a dark angels bolter banner list which was something liek this.

Do you know that Codex Space Marines dont have a Bolter Banner?

Obviously the list has a prtetty glaring weakness which is infantry, gauss and meltas right.

Not to mentioned being hit from the comp stick

Also, I noticed you cannot field an Adamantium Lance as it would be 21 points.

Why not just ban it?

Well we really hate banning stuff and some members of the council while they agreed that ad lance has no place in comp they wanted to avoid using the word banned. I was for it but i was out voted,its no big deal.

You have banned other stuff; so obviously the 'council' arent afraid to ban things - are you sure you didnt just miscalculate that it exceeded 20pts?

So I'm curious as to thoughts on this list.

Tyranids CAD, 1840/1850 points

Old One Eye (Warlord)
Haruspex
Haruspex
Haruspex
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Mucolid Spore Cluster
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Dimachaeron
Carnifex Brood (2 fexes)
Carnifex Brood
Carnifex Brood

I'm thinking it must be good because it costs more than 21 credits, so my tournament points and % available are somewhere in the negatives.

The list is actually impossible for alot of armies to handle. think about the poor space marine player with 30 tacticals. what does he have to do to deal with 3 dimacrons let alone the other MCS running in behind them?

There are these things called Krak grenades that every Marine has; S6 AP4. As most of the big bugs are slow and are WS3;; the marines hit first on 3's and wound on 4's or 3's depending on the MC and in some cases ignore the army.

Besides, didnt you say that you dont care if the soft armies get hit - as long as it hits the hard armies. So if you punch someone in the face because they took a soft army; that's cool because you are hitting the guys who take a 'hard' army. Unless of course you do stealth cheese.

Is the rules council just based in Victoria? What about the differing meta around the place?

Whats the incentive to take a soft army if it gets hit as hard as a tooled army? Isnt the point of a comp system to punish hard armies and reward soft armies - hitting every army isnt a comp system, its a crimes against 'the council'

Why not do a comp score for armies assuming that they dont ally; that way Sisters dont get slammed (unless of course they want to spam AV11 Walkers with 2 Hull Points; those things are so OP.

As for the Eldar Codex, how much of that will be banned, or will you just mark it as 21pts so you dont need to ban it?

No the list isnt good to bring to a tournament because you will certainly play someone who will smash you but think of poor little timmy who took heaps of necron warriors because last event he had to play against a 4 land raider list and got smashed.

Poor little Timmy? You have already said you dont care about Poor Little Timmy as you assume everyone will try to take hard armies.

You cant claim to ignore the harsly hit soft armies to excuse the poorly thought out scores then lift up poor timmy of why they wouldnt want to allow a poorly thought out army.

Simply put; a 7 credit army should have an equal chance of winning against another 7 credit army. Is this the case?

If someone takes a power list and doesn't win the tourney they can still destroy everyone else and ruin everyone else's fun, so what's the point of this again?

Why do 3 loaded out Flyrants have a lower comp score than 3 Nightscythes? (even accounting for the Tyranid MC tax)

If I'm reading the rules right 3 Flyrants with no other MCs purchased are 7 points.

Flyrants are one of the most difficult to deal with units in the game.

Paddlepop Lion wrote:
OK it seems like thats off because suits are OKAAAY and bikes are awesome right? but make those two things work in an army. i can tell you as an experienced eldar player that 44 bikes is probably too many to manage efficiently. you need warlocks and warp charge to make them really good and some backup combat unit and some long range guns., Your probably pushing it for points and have too much of one kind of firepower.

And likewise, crisis suits need a lot of support in order to be truly good, namely from markerlights since, unlike Eldar, they have BS3 base and miss half their shots. Crisis suits aren't performing miracles all on their own, and when comparing the two I would still say Eldar jetbikes are far superior for the points spent, but since I'm talking to "an experienced Eldar player" I guess it doesn't really matter what I say.

Paddlepop Lion wrote:
9 suits is all sorts of different things in a tau army and can be used for heaps of differnt jobs.

So in other words I'm being docked points because of the supposed utility of a crisis suit, even though I can still only equip it to do one job in-game.

It would make sense to me if you got hit on comp because you spammed missile suits, because spamming mid-strength weaponry with lots of shots is actually strong, but docking points for all suits regardless of how they're equipped just because they can be customized is kinda stupid in my opinion. Especially since every point spent on crisis suits is one less point spent on riptides, which are the real broken unit. A Tau player fielding crisis suits over riptides in this edition is already gimping their list, so punishing them for it anyway just rubs me wrong. Hell, even fething stealth suits cost you points if you spam them, I can't wrap my head around that one either.

Why do 3 loaded out Flyrants have a lower comp score than 3 Nightscythes? (even accounting for the Tyranid MC tax)

If I'm reading the rules right 3 Flyrants with no other MCs purchased are 7 points.

Flyrants are one of the most difficult to deal with units in the game.

Sorry you have missed the global rule on FMC which is mentioned in the flyrant rule.
Its 1 for the 12 wounds worth of Mcs
1c1 x 3 making 6 for the Flyrant rule
c1 x 3 for the FMC rule

making 10 total so its 1 credit more than 3 night scythes.

We are actually on the verge of dropping the cost of night scythes a bit, the council is divided on it right now. If Terracon comes along and they are still getting played as infrequently as they are that will likely tip the scales.

The Khorne daemonkin section is a joke.

Insensate Rage BT's costing an extra point even though in KDK they are clearly the worst BT since they cannot take gifts like in Chaos Daemons, sure they have a D weapon melee but strikes at init 1. Its not like it has EW or a ranged attack.
Its also no clear if the part which says C1 for all BT's and Flying DP's stacks onto the standard FMC C1.

Spawn is a flat 1 point with C1 with no regards to unit size, why the hell should I pay 1 point and extra if I'm taking single spawn.

Why is the soul grinder C1, its khornate and is already covered by your AV13 general rule, so if heaven forbid I take 3 soulgrinders its 7 points regardless of what they are armed with.

Bloodcrushers cost you points just because their fast moving, seriously? And don't spout some garbage about the grimoire because your already costing that then making KDK pay additional points just in case they ally in daemons for it.

And then we get to the gorepack, so not only does it cost you 1 point upfront regardless of unit sizes but if your actually going to make use of the formation your looking at around 5+ points in total.

You basically penalise a combat orientated army for choosing fast units because god forbid you shouldn't let your opponent shoot you for 3 turns first.

Paddlepop Lion wrote:

I just think it's funny that whoever came up with this comp system seems to think that 9 crisis suits are comparable to 44 Eldar jetbikes, since they're both 4 comp points. How?

9 suits is all sorts of different things in a tau army and can be used for heaps of differnt jobs.

I find it hilarious. Suits are... versatile, but NOWHERE near as GOOD as jetbikes. The bikes cost 27pt each with scatterlasers. Crisis are 22pts base. Bikes have 12" move, and the same JSJ tactics as the suits, but come with jink, turboboost, etc.

Weapons: Missile suits are 57 points each for 2 missile pods, and a target lock (squad is 166 for THREE suits. That's 6.14 bikes roughly). All for 12 shots at S7 AP4. Meanwhile, the 6 bikes have 24 shots at BS4, and the same range. Shooting at each other would give 4.44 unsaved wounds on the crisis, and... 1.66 unsaved wounds on the bikes. Plasma rifles would do better, but the bikes would just outrange the suits in every way. They get an extra 6" movement, plus turboboost, and have 12" range on the guns iirc.

What I'm saying is, for your "comp" is broken with suits. Sure suits CAN do a wide range of jobs, BUT can only ever be kitted out to do one, MAYBE two effectively for the cost. MAYBE. And honestly, a lot of the jobs suits do, other things can do better. Anti Transport/medium AV? HYMPs. Anti horde? Hell, fire warriors. 2x BC crisis suits are 136pts, while 15 fire warriors are roughly the same, but have an extra 12" range, and at 15" (only 3" closer than burst cannons), they put out 12 shots more. Anti TEQ/MEQ? IA Riptide. 2x PR target lock suits would be about 166pt, so for 20pt more, you get a riptide, with a S8/9 Large Blast (or 3 S7 shots), Gets hot 72" range vs 3-6 S6 shots from 24" to 12". The place suits best fit in are either with the missile pods (mobile anti light/medium AV) or a fusion blaster unit to pop high AV.

That's my thoughts on this. Your comp needs a lot of work, especially with what everyone else has talked about. I personally cannot ever see this system working well

Comp systems need to arrange units by undercostedness/overpoweredness and then go from there. This means that objective decisions about what is truly overpowered needs to be made by the comp team.

Denying killpoints is a trick?

No assaulting, moement and blocking tricks. too much to get into but they exist.

You have banned other stuff; so obviously the 'council' arent afraid to ban things - are you sure you didnt just miscalculate that it exceeded 20pts?

No obviously we didnt misscalculate we have drawn a line, its a vague one but a line over which too much power or toughness out of one unit or model is too much.
The line is "what is reasonable for an average army to be expected to deal with"
3 knights are stupid but an average army can beat them (at least good players can) a if they get a bit of luck but Ad lance we decided was too much to ever be present.
Stompas, tessrract vaults and obelisk are all things we also thought was just too much to expect an average army to handle. (keep in mind we play the necron ones with 270 degree ark of fire)

The stompa might make it in, were kind of on the line about it, it will jsut depend how the debate and public opinion goes.

Besides, didnt you say that you dont care if the soft armies get hit - as long as it hits the hard armies. So if you punch someone in the face because they took a soft army; that's cool because you are hitting the guys who take a 'hard' army. Unless of course you do stealth cheese.

Is the rules council just based in Victoria? What about the differing meta around the place?

Whats the incentive to take a soft army if it gets hit as hard as a tooled army? Isnt the point of a comp system to punish hard armies and reward soft armies - hitting every army isnt a comp system, its a crimes against 'the council'

Thats not what i said. i said that armies made by players trying to make a good army within the system will be comped quite accurately but players who just chuck random stuff into a list migth run into costs they arent taking advantage for. For example a player might take the grimwar and fate weaver with no intentuon of using fate weavers reroll on the grimwar but he pays for it anyway.

Someone might want to run a full unit of ministorum priests and pay heaps of credits for them when he jsut wants to run squad of priests.
My point is that the accuracy of the comp score for people doing random stuff like this is less relevant because those players dont win thier games anyway. They benefit from the system because they dont get crub stomped by everyone else.

the incentive to run a softer list is points. You get the best bang for your buck if you spend about 5-7 credits. The best players, the power gamers all spend about that much on purpose. its a design feature we put in deliberately for this reason


The council is made of several victorians because thats where it began but we have several south australians some NSW people and some Queenslanders. we have 1 kiwi and 2 italians.
We are actively looking for more people to join the coucnil to offer a better and broader perspective to improve the system further which is one reason why i came here.
It would be great to get some americans on the team to help out.

You keep saying make a broken list with the comp system. Fine.

Here is a broken list that you can't refute as broken by your own system because this list has 0 comp points.

1750 Chaos Daemons w/ Khorne Daemonkin allies


There is no restriction on av12 vehicles in general, just walkers. So there is nothing preventing me from spamming the av12 khorne chariots and some slaanesh chariots. So this list has 9 av12 vehicles, 1 av12 walker, 3 av11 vehicles and the Av12 portalglyph. The pink horrors get two conjurations which if they get sacrifice can be slaanesh heralds on regualr chariots so i could have 2 more av11 chariots as well.

All for 0 comp points

Please send me the $100.

but since I'm talking to "an experienced Eldar player" I guess it doesn't really matter what I say

sorry i gave you the imression i dont care what you think, dont know how i did but i absolutely dont mean to say that im just trying to explain why a given set of costs are what they are.

So in other words I'm being docked points because of the supposed utility of a crisis suit, even though I can still only equip it to do one job in-game.

It would make sense to me if you got hit on comp because you spammed missile suits, because spamming mid-strength weaponry with lots of shots is actually strong, but docking points for all suits regardless of how they're equipped just because they can be customized is kinda stupid in my opinion. Especially since every point spent on crisis suits is one less point spent on riptides, which are the real broken unit. A Tau player fielding crisis suits over riptides in this edition is already gimping their list, so punishing them for it anyway just rubs me wrong. Hell, even fething stealth suits cost you points if you spam them, I can't wrap my head around that one either.

No i dont mean they are costed because they could be kitted out to do multiple jobs at once i mean they can be kitted out to specialise in several different jobs. It doesnt take much support for them to do amazing things just 1 or 2 markers will make them do quite a lot of damage. You can put them together with pretty much any weapon configuration and they will do well at what job you want them for. The reason they are costed how they are is so you can take 3 for free, one unit is fine and tau should be allowed to have that.
The cost how it is was tweaked upward slowly because we were seing heaps of players running lots of suits. With the cost how it is now we have started to see generally the max suits players run is 3. Currently we are talking about backing off on that cost a little bit and the march update may well see that happen.

I find it hilarious. Suits are... versatile, but NOWHERE near as GOOD as jetbikes. The bikes cost 27pt each with scatterlasers. Crisis are 22pts base. Bikes have 12" move, and the same JSJ tactics as the suits, but come with jink, turboboost, etc.

Just so where on the same page here man we havent got the new eldar book comped yet so we are compareing them to old eldar bikes.

Its also no clear if the part which says C1 for all BT's and Flying DP's stacks onto the standard FMC C1.

Thanks for that comment the wording on that is a bit confusing we will fix that asap.
If you observe the FMC rule it tells you that all FMC are C1 and that you should add all your FMC together for this cost so this point is jsut marking out that they are C1 so no it doesnt stack.

Spawn is a flat 1 point with C1 with no regards to unit size, why the hell should I pay 1 point and extra if I'm taking single spawn.
Bloodcrushers cost you points just because their fast moving, seriously? And don't spout some garbage about the grimoire because your already costing that then making KDK pay additional points just in case they ally in daemons for it.

Got nothing to do with the grimwar, as you say we have already costed it. We habitually cost fast assault units. They have a critical mass effect that overwhelm the opponent when you throw a bunch at them, plus forcing your opponent to deal with a unit with nearlyt 20 wounds protects other units in your army from harm for a while.
That said you make a good point about the unit size, as we are going through and re evaluating each book worth we have been moving to a pay x per y models format for fast assault units.
We will get onto that one.









Automatically Appended Next Post:

You keep saying make a broken list with the comp system. Fine.

Here is a broken list that you can't refute as broken by your own system because this list has 0 comp points.

1750 Chaos Daemons w/ Khorne Daemonkin allies
Spoiler:


There is no restriction on av12 vehicles in general, just walkers. So there is nothing preventing me from spamming the av12 khorne chariots and some slaanesh chariots. So this list has 9 av12 vehicles, 1 av12 walker, 3 av11 vehicles and the Av12 portalglyph. The pink horrors get two conjurations which if they get sacrifice can be slaanesh heralds on regualr chariots so i could have 2 more av11 chariots as well.

All for 0 comp points

Please send me the $100.

i think the specific list you posted i dont think quite makes it but with a tweak or two it would. Its at very least polarising enough that we should make a change to fix it.

Thanks for the effort you win!

Pm me

Alright I will

If I can propose an alternative to comp here,

40k is absolutely nothing near a balanced game. It doesn't even make the pretense anymore, and GW will be the first to say as much, and they have. Organized, competitive play is not what the current 40k ruleset is about, and it shows.

In many ways I think the idea of a 40k "tournament" is increasingly pointless and absurd.

Particularly if people aren't willing to change units and rules.

However, that does not mean that organized events in general can't still be done. De-emphasize winning. Don't bill the event as a "tournament", just advertise it as a "gaming event". Don't promote wins, don't track battle points or award for best general, but rather Sportsmanship (not necessarily through strict Sportsmanship scores, but instead through awarding their favorite opponent raffle tickets and whatnot), and painting and background adherence (to further de-emphasize things like daemon-summoning Eldar or Imperial Knights in Dark Eldar armies and the like).

This way, competition is put into not being an ass and the more constructive aspects of the hobby, and channeling it away from simply winning and list construction absurdity given that the game simply isn't functional in that capacity.

Have to say that has been mentioned on wau a few times as well

But there are plenty of people who feel there needs to be a winner.

That would work just fine if there wasn't a whole lot of people wanting to play tournaments, many of those wanting it to be balanced.

Fortunately despite what many posting here think, community comp does this.

Community comp attempts you mean.. you are no where near balanced yet.

GodDamUser wrote:
Have to say that has been mentioned on wau a few times as well

But there are plenty of people who feel there needs to be a winner.

Increasingly I'm thinking they're in the wrong game, and GW will probably be the first to tell them that. The game is simply too bloated, convoluted, imbalanced and weirdly thought out for "winning" to really mean anything anymore. And I say that as someone who's taken best overall at three of my last five events and second place at the other two.

Paddlepop Lion wrote:
That would work just fine if there wasn't a whole lot of people wanting to play tournaments, many of those wanting it to be balanced.

Fortunately despite what many posting here think, community comp does this.

I've never found it to do anything but simply create a different power meta personally, every place I've ever played that's tried it has dropped it because it just changed what was on top instead of putting everything on an equal footing, more often than not hurting the "little guys" and fluff players more than anyone else. I really would love it if it did work, I've just never seen any sort of "comp" system have any of the effect that was originally intended.

If people want a tournament out of a game that has gone out of its way to not function as a tournament game, then the best way to do that is going to be to actually change units and rules to make them function properly in a tournament, not just try to lay an additional points system on top of the existing one in a vain attempt to fix what the original is supposed to already do.

But you haven't tried this. Cc doesn't just change what's on top it allows for so much variety that I can't think of 2 tournaments that had the same codex win.

So far from memory there was I think necrons win forge fest, space marines win one in nsw last year can't remember the name. Leviathan maybe.
Orks won Terra con, tau won an event in SA I don't know the name of, deamons won my first event, guard won Vic masters, nids win can con I think, blood angels won Western smash.

Seems like there isn't any one thing in top doesn't there?

GodDamUser wrote:
Community comp attempts you mean.. you are no where near balanced yet.

You are quite right. We are not infallible. Far from it.

But you see, this is partly why we've come to places like Dakka to share this idea. Surely you don't believe the motive was to make every tournament world-wide run Community Comp? No, we want to share this with people outside Australia, or rather Vic and SA's meta.
We WANT feedback, we WANT people to show us holes, and we WANT people to respond.

The thing is, we want to make the system better, and opening up to more scrutiny helps us do this. Already, several discussions about costings have been started due to response in this thread and others like it.

The thing is, those who simply respond 'the idea is stupid, comp shouldn't exist' etc, are not the people we need to be reaching out to. There's certainly a preference for comp/no-comp, and that's fine, that'll always exist.

What we ARE saying is, if you like the idea of the system, have a look and give us some feedback, if you DON'T like our system, but are open to the idea of comp working correctly, please, have a look and give us feedback.

If you hate the idea of comp, and refuse to acknowledge it as an option, then that's fine, we won't be affecting the tournaments you're playing in, but please don't be offended if we don't drop the idea after 2 or 3 people say 'don't bother'.

What about Peer Comp out of 5; policed by the TO - I think that would be more effective.

Oh I'm not saying don't bother...

I'm just against this we have solved everything attitude and that they have done everything right attitude that has been coming out.

I also had a scope of the community comp forum and there doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion.. or a listing of who are the 'council'

oone of the big things that has been pointed out here that rings for me is the general spacemarine devs are not costed but csm havocs are.. and then when asked why paddle has given a 'yyou don't understand' response without actually explaining himself

I thought it was because Chaos was OP without those pesky ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics handicaps.

The forums are still brand new so there hasn't been much traffic move there yet.

If you go the the website there's a list of all the people In the council.

I didn't give a you don't understand attitude. I have been trying to keep up with responding to like 6 people at once and got lost on that one.

Havoks have been costed as they are because auto cannons are better weapons than the guns other armies get in thier devs.
Its hard to justify not running 12 auto Cannons for 350 ish points.

It hasn't been bright up in a while and this discussion has stimulated us to have it again. We just decided earlier to change them to 1 credit for the 10th auto cannon on havoks.

Despite the haters this has been pretty usefull discussion so far

Paddlepop Lion wrote:
The forums are still brand new so there hasn't been much traffic move there yet.

If you go the the website there's a list of all the people In the council.

I didn't give a you don't understand attitude. I have been trying to keep up with responding to like 6 people at once and got lost on that one.

Havoks have been costed as they are because auto cannons are better weapons than the guns other armies get in thier devs.
Its hard to justify not running 12 auto Cannons for 350 ish points.

It hasn't been bright up in a while and this discussion has stimulated us to have it again. We just decided earlier to change them to 1 credit for the 10th auto cannon on havoks.

Despite the haters this has been pretty usefull discussion so far

Without trying to be intentionally offensive, the attitude you give off is a little 'you don't get it'.

Part of the problem is that you have been far too broad in assigning Comp scores. If Havoks are comped because of auto cannons, comp auto cannons specifically. It's unfairly penalising a unit that has alternate uses.

I get that you're trying to ease off hardcore tournament, but the concept of a TAC list is you can handle All Comers. 30 Tacs in Rhino's are blatantly anti-infantry. You shouldn't be allowing bad decisions to act as a reason to pigeonhole people into specific builds. Because Timmy wants his Tac spam, I can't run a wall of AV 11? A TAC should be able to handle that, especially if they're squadroned. It needs a little refining, details, but hell, maybe it does work. Don't take criticism as an attack. Valid points have been raised.