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 darkcloak wrote:
That's a pretty specific range of limitations! Though they do say it's for official events, so I guess there is nothing stopping you from scratch building your own stuff for personal use. You wouldn't want to waste your time building "illegal" models though because eventually you're probably gonna want to play a tournament or two!

It should also be pointed out that when they mean official events, they really mean events which they themselves are organizing. Other events are not beholden to follow these guidelines, many do but as always most TOs use common sense.

They have no way of enforcing these rules at events run by 3rd parties, including their pressgangers. The TO's word is still law, and he can approve any conversion he deems reasonable. Including any that would technically be illegal.

My Fire of Salvation is made out of a metal Crusader. Not a single part of the official kit. But he's painted very well and has converted weapons and other fancy bits. And his base says "Fire of Salvation" on it. Never had an issue.


This policy exists so TOs have a tool to use against people that have super confusing conversions. Its not to stifle creativity, its to keep the game playable.

I admittedly didn't keep up with the discussion in the immediate aftermath of the announcement, but for those that did, was there anything ever said about weapons that aren't a part of the models rules? Do they even count? Like shields on Infantry?

For example, converting Bastions from Cinerators (without just swapping the arms out, because Hoard o Bits doesn't seem to want to restock them) by swapping the swords for Halberds and leaving the shields on them, or leaving the shields off Paladins of the Wall?

 derek wrote:
I admittedly didn't keep up with the discussion in the immediate aftermath of the announcement, but for those that did, was there anything ever said about weapons that aren't a part of the models rules? Do they even count? Like shields on Infantry?

For example, converting Bastions from Cinerators (without just swapping the arms out, because Hoard o Bits doesn't seem to want to restock them) by swapping the swords for Halberds and leaving the shields on them, or leaving the shields off Paladins of the Wall?

No, you can't have weapons on the model that aren't in the stats.

And you will notice that infantry with shields usually have one higher armor then equivalent infantry without it.

Bastions are arm16. Cinerators are arm17.

So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

No, it's because in some instances the only way to tell models apart at a quick glance is from what weapons and/or shield it is using.
When you're playing in a timed environment then every second counts (literally and fiuratively). Having to confirm with your opponent just what a model or unit is supposed to be eats into your time unnecessarily.

But I don't know what any models are other than my own. I have to ask my opponents what their models are even if they're stock. I don't see how these rules save me any time on the other side of the table.

They might not affect you but, believe me, it does matter to many other people.

Try playing a timed game (either with timed turns or death clock) and you'll see how it can effect the out come of a game.

However, you can use whatever you like in your own games (with your opponent's approval). The conversion rules are for tournament and organized play formats.

Henshini wrote:
But I don't know what any models are other than my own. I have to ask my opponents what their models are even if they're stock. I don't see how these rules save me any time on the other side of the table.

Take Convergence for example. Their infantry are the same but with different weapons. A shield would seriously throw off what people think.
Or take Trolls. Their heavy infantry either has an axe and shield or two axes. It makes a difference.

And....these are for official PP ran events. So, unless you go to those it doesn't matter. Just clear it up with your opponent or TO before hand.

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

You don't want to win because your opponent thought your ol'Rowdy was actually a regular old Ironclad. Or just can't tell what the heck this converted model is supposed to be.

Its to prevent confusion like this. I shouldn't have to waste my time asking what that model is.

I find it funny that people are still arguing over how dumb it is that they can't give their minis all sorts of different weapons to prevent confusion in a tournament environment. Put shields on stuff if you're playing in your basement, whatever, this is for Iron Arena or something similar. If you aren't going to get involved with that level of play, why do you need to be upset at it at all?

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

It's 'cause PP, while making good rules, really only understands rules, so even their options for how to be creative with their toys are a wall of rules.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

It's 'cause PP, while making good rules, really only understands rules, so even their options for how to be creative with their toys are a wall of rules.

Huh? It's pretty simple. Don't use symbols from other IP's, use most of the model, don't make it unrecognizable.
And you guys keep forgetting that these are for official tournaments. Yes, it's going to be rule-y. But, as they say, it's the TO's choice. That's kind of simple.

Even that restriction for other IPs is really just to cover their butts from IP infringement lawsuits.

If PP was to endorse some guy's cool Avenger's themed Cygnar, even if it was just "hey look at this cool army" while they were walking through a convention hall, they could get slapped with lawsuit.

Anyways, that only applies if PP is running an event at which they are filming in an official capacity. Which is like maybe 2-3 events a year out of hundreds.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Huh? It's pretty simple. Don't use symbols from other IP's, use most Privateer Press Product l, don't make it unrecognizable.
And you guys keep forgetting that these are for official tournaments. Yes, it's going to be rule-y. But, as they say, it's the TO's choice. That's kind of simple.

You were slightly off on the conversion rules. You no longer need to use 50% of the original model but 50% of it must be PP product.

Also I agree with the rules. I disliked the old ones as I felt it was too restrictive but this new one is fine. Also as you said it is for OFFICIAL TOURNAMENT PLAY only. In your basement or in casual games do whatever.

I have seen tournament games end with a 7 second difference on the clocks because it really was that close, and having to constantly ask "what is that again?" can cause a loss.

Not to mention someone previously asked why their stalker can't have an axe. Well because ghetorix has an axe. "But I don't have ghetorix".. Well that doesn't matter. If it confuses ONE person and causes a loss because you modeled not because how you played that's not OK. There is a major difference between the stalker & ghetorix in that Ghetorix doesn't have pathfinder. So you thought you were safe behind that forest & your opponent says "My STALKER has pathfinder & charges..." now you've won not (entirely) because how you played but because your model conversion confused an opponent.


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 Grey Templar wrote:

If PP was to endorse some guy's cool Avenger's themed Cygnar, even if it was just "hey look at this cool army" while they were walking through a convention hall, they could get slapped with lawsuit.

Not really. This is covered under essentially safe harbour. Privateer press cannot be blamed for what their players do. They can even endorse it and say "Cool models" (in person) they just cannot monetize it in any way, so they couldn't put it up on their youtube channel if it has ads or use it for promotional purposes which you could argue their youtube channel is.

Now posting a video of them online, saying "hey look at these cool PRIVATEER PRESS models" would be using another companies IP for promotional purposes, and would likely result in a C&D, so you are correct in that sense.

It is also unlikely to end in a lawsuit but rather a takedown notice which would mean they need to re-do their whole video coverage to edit it out.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean an expensive lawsuit won't get filed. It can easily be argued that just by showing the models you are "promoting" and benefiting from it. And you don't want to get involved in a legal battle with Marvel, even if you would technically win. Their goal wouldn't be to win, it would be to make the smaller guy spend model defending themselves, or rather the threat of having to defend themselves, and thus make them toe the line a little farther than necessary.

Better safe than sorry. PP would rather completely avoid that issue in the first place and not take an unnecessary risk.

Well. As long as they weapons are correct to the normal Storm Guard, according to the new policy... Yes, because since not all of the Silverline pieces would be on them, they could be normal Storm Guard, but the wouldn't be able to be the Silverline unless you change our the weapons too.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

You don't want to win because your opponent thought your ol'Rowdy was actually a regular old Ironclad. Or just can't tell what the heck this converted model is supposed to be.

Its to prevent confusion like this. I shouldn't have to waste my time asking what that model is.

So you're not disputing that to play WM/H I have to memorize every model and their stats?

Henshini wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

You don't want to win because your opponent thought your ol'Rowdy was actually a regular old Ironclad. Or just can't tell what the heck this converted model is supposed to be.

Its to prevent confusion like this. I shouldn't have to waste my time asking what that model is.

So you're not disputing that to play WM/H I have to memorize every model and their stats?

Memorize, no.

Its a good idea to be familiar with them. And the job shouldn't be made harder by a model that doesn't look like what its supposed to be.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, but that doesn't mean an expensive lawsuit won't get filed. It can easily be argued that just by showing the models you are "promoting" and benefiting from it. And you don't want to get involved in a legal battle with Marvel, even if you would technically win. Their goal wouldn't be to win, it would be to make the smaller guy spend model defending themselves, or rather the threat of having to defend themselves, and thus make them toe the line a little farther than necessary.

Better safe than sorry. PP would rather completely avoid that issue in the first place and not take an unnecessary risk.

It still wouldn't get a lawsuit filed, lawsuits are expensive both ways. You don't jump right into "lawsuit" with things like that. You need to file a C&D first. If the C&D gets ignored or you repeatedly infringe THEN they sue.

Lawsuits are expensive both ways, Plus marvel realizes the cross over in fan base & wouldn't want to alienate anyone. Unless it was EXTREMELY gregarious or repeated offenses they would file a youtube takedown claim & just send PP a C&D, which PP would be stupid to ignore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Henshini wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Henshini wrote:
So am I right in reading that the reason these rules exist is because every WM/H player has every model and their stats memorized and shuffling them around would confuse these human computers? 'Cause that sounds silly.

You don't want to win because your opponent thought your ol'Rowdy was actually a regular old Ironclad. Or just can't tell what the heck this converted model is supposed to be.

Its to prevent confusion like this. I shouldn't have to waste my time asking what that model is.

So you're not disputing that to play WM/H I have to memorize every model and their stats?

Memorize, no.

Its a good idea to be familiar with them. And the job shouldn't be made harder by a model that doesn't look like what its supposed to be.

Also this exactly. At higher competitive levels of play you don't want to waste your clock asking about stats & checking cards. Which is what the rules are for, official events, not your local Saturday 3-round.

Henshini wrote:
So you're not disputing that to play WM/H I have to memorize every model and their stats?

If you are playing WM/H at a high enough level for the conversion policy to matter then yes, you will have a very good idea of what every model looks like and their stats.

Truthfully, even if you just play at your local game store you will get a rough idea of what common things are and their stats. The game is very difficult to play if you don't have at least a general idea of what your opponent has before looking at their cards.

To me, WM/H is a lot like when I used to play Magic in that respect. To be competitive you have to not only know your own deck and card combos, but your opponents as well so you could counter/prepare.

Not sure how much, if at all, you have played, but it makes sense for the tournies where these rules apply.

Henshini wrote:
So you're not disputing that to play WM/H I have to memorize every model and their stats?

I can't comment on your mental capabilities but, most people don't need to so.